Do I need a smaller die for my 30-06

[jnh]

I have been having trouble with my lee dies since I bought them for my 30-06. The neck size die is too big and the bullet drops right into the case. And although I have achived some great groups out of reloading with the full size die the bolt closes very hard on a reloaded shell. Not on just some it does it on all the shells Ive reloaded. Ive heard that semi auto guns use a smaller die of sorts. Should I try these or is there something I am over looking.Maybe just switching to some rcbs dies would fix it. The gun is a ruger m77 left hand. Thanks.

[oldscot3]

Semi-auto weapons often need a "small base" die set to size the cases so they will reliably chamber each time. I think all the reloading equipment companies offer small base die sets for the calibers that are popular in semi-autos.

[jnh]

Thanks I get some rcbs small base dies. I only have one 30-06 Could I just get a new neck size die.

[steve4102]

You do NOT need nor do you want to use Small Base dies in your bolt action rifle.

The Lee Neck Collet Die is about the best there is. If you have it set up right and you still do not have enough neck tension, just chuck the mandrel in a drill and polish it down a few thousands. If you are uncomfortable doing this you can order a reduced mandrel from Lee for $5.

If your Full Length sized brass will not chamber(no bullet/powder/primer) then you need to screw the die in 1/4 of a turn until it will chamber(no bullet/primer/powder).

[oldscot3]

Steve4102 is correct about not needing small base dies for a bolt action, unless it had a "tight chamber" for some reason, which seems highly unlikely especially with a factory cut chamber.

To be honest I missed the part about the weapon of topic being a bolt action.

You could buy some Cerosafe (sp?) and make a cast of your chamber to determine quickly where the problem lies with your reloads.

[snuffy]

Is the lee neck sizer die a collet die? If so, you don't have it set up right. If the bullet drops into the case, you need to keep turning it down, closer to the shell holder to get the proper tension. Lee recommends 25# of pressure on the end of the press handle to properly size a case with the collet neck sizer. If that doesn't result in enough neck tension, then as Steve said, take some diameter off that mandrel.

Everybody is so quick to advise a small base die. In my 40+ years of loading, I've never needed or used a small base die. A properly set-up neck of FL die is all that's needed!

[hodaka]

I agree with the previous posts. The Lee Collet dies work well but you need to put a lot of force on the handle to get them to work. I had similar experiences will bullets dropping into the case until I figured that out. The hard closing could be an OAL issue. I bought some small base dies once just to check them out but I rarely use them and I shoot mostly auto's.

[Unclenick]

Originally Posted by Snuffy

Everybody is so quick to advise a small base die. In my 40+ years of loading, I've never needed or used a small base die. A properly set-up neck of FL die is all that's needed!

Me either, and I've owned or tested many, many military actions. My Compass Lake match AR has a match chamber and it runs standard sized rounds easily. I rebuilt match Garands for our club and cut tight chambers for them with a pull-through match reamer and they run the standard sized ammo just fine, too. The only time I've ever seen a need for a small base die is when somebody with a fairly tight chamber has purchased brass originally fired in a machinegun or other generous chamber. The brass springs back out from sizing somewhat, and those cases can require a small base die the first time you resize them. After they are fired in the tighter chamber, they never need it again.

Jnh,

I think you just have some adjustment problems. Especially if you are using an aluminum Lee press, like the Challenger, you will find the press will flex upward some, so you need to adjust the dies further in than is required with a cast iron press or the cast steel Lee Classic Cast press or with a very beefy cast aluminum press like the Dillon. Please watch this help video from the Lee web site on how to set up a rifle full-length sizing die. Pay special attention to looking for a crack of daylight between the shell holder and the die in the upstroke position with a lubed case pushed up into the die. You should even take a flashlight and make sure the gap is zero.

The collet die is one of the few dies with a learning curve (please watch this Lee help video). For one thing, you can make the mistake of trying it without a case in the press and get the collet stuck closed. You have to take it apart and put it back together to clear that. For another, I and almost everyone who uses those dies will back the case out and rotate it 180 degrees and run it into the die a second time. That clears any collet finger marks and usually get the size down an additional half thousandth or so. You do need some firmness on the handle stroke as stated above. The 25 pound number reflects using the standard Lee press. If you have one with a longer handle or more compound leverage, it can be less. Try dropping bullets in to gauge how much is enough?

That collet die also benefits from disassembly and degreasing (wear plastic gloves to keep finger prints off) and soaking three days in Sprinco Plate+ Silver. That's a permanent lube that makes its operation smoother internally and helps reduce rust problems. Adding a little LPS-3 on the outside keeps rust off pretty completely.

[oneounceload]

If all you have is one rifle, and you don't want the hassle of FL sizing, lubing, etc., a neck-sizing case will work just fine. I have 4 bolts guns and only use a neck sizer for each of them - IMO, the accuracy of them is increased, the labor involved is decreased - win-win scenario.......

[oldscot3]

Snuffys experience is enviable and his point is well taken. As I stated earlier, I overlooked the fact that the weapon of topic was a bolt gun. I would like to disagree strongly, however, that small base dies are neverneeded due to some antidotal evidence offered.

Here is some to the contrary. Example: I had a friend, who once upon a time, owned a Remington 742 chambered for 280 Remington. It would feed factory ammo flawlessly, but his handloads were completely unreliable until he bought a set of small base dies. That solved his problem. Could he have corrected the problem without them? Maybe, maybe not.

You can argue whether or not a particular weapon needs them and you may be wrong or right depending on the particular rifle. Many things can be tried to correct the problem and if the trial meets the error, it may be resolved. I suggest that an effective way to diagnose the situation is with a chamber casting of the particular rifle in question. I also submit that small base dies are manufactured for good reason.

[snuffy]

Here's what most likely happened to the guy with the 742. He didn't have the FL die set properly, then he did it right with the small base die. Conclusion; the small base die was needed!

There never has been a 742 with a chamber small enough to NEED a small base die. They were cut big to insure function. Because 98% of owners didn't know how to clean the chamber of a rem semi auto, they were left loose so they'd work.

[Unclenick]

The other factor is brass age. Some of it gets work hardened enough to spring back a bit as it leaves the sizing die. I used to see about three thousandths (enough spell the difference between feeding and not in some chambers) headspace variance in LC .30-06 cases coming out of the sizing die. Re-annealing the neck and shoulder helps bring them back to the starting point. Short of that, I found that if I leave a case pressed up into the sizing die for a count of five, back it out for a count of five, then run it back in for another count of five, about another two thousandths would come off the headspace of the longest cases.

If you look at SAAMI drawings, the largest allowed headspace for new case is usually about 0.002" shorter than the minimum specified chamber headspace for the same cartridge. 0.002" should be enough difference to get you feeding. If you have a stubborn gun, like that 742, get a headspace gauge. Fire a light load of Unique or something too weak to cycle the gun, but strong enough to fireform the case. Then measure the fired case headspace. Keep that number handy, and make sure your sizing of cases fired with regular loads is resulting in case headspace at least .002" shorter than that recorded number.

[flashhole]

I agree with Unclenick.

Hodaka wrote - I agree with the previous posts. The Lee Collet dies work well but you need to put a lot of force on the handle to get them to work. I had similar experiences will bullets dropping into the case until I figured that out. The hard closing could be an OAL issue. I bought some small base dies once just to check them out but I rarely use them and I shoot mostly auto's.

What has not been discussed is the potential work hardening of the brass. The Lee Collet Neck Die is not difficult/tricky to use and does not require a lot of force on the press lever. I have one for each of the 5 cartridges I load. Some folks have had to take emery paper to the mandrel to thin it down a bit but those are not regular occurances. Annealing the brass will definately help the situation if the brass is work hardened and make the process easier. Yes, you must use enough force to size against the mandrel but you don't have to be Hercules to get it to work properly.

[A_Gamehog]

This guy writes good articles..

http://www.chuckhawks.com/adjust_reloading_dies.htm

[jnh]

I did all the thing you gentleman recomended and it fix my problem. It feeds reloads like factory rounds, very happy. I do need to get a sturdier bench thou. Ill try to get some shots down range as soon as this damn snow stops. Thanks again for all your help.