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Old March 20, 2000, 08:28 PM   #1
Nick19
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Don't know if this helps, but I am a Ph.D. metallurgist. I currently work on TiAl alloys, but I'd like to help anyone who has questions about common metallury questions. Just email me or post to this board. Follow my advice at your own risk (don't sue me).

-Nick19

my email is [email protected], I may post replies to this board unless otherwise instructed. I have edited this b/c I was really tired last night when I first wrote it.

[This message has been edited by Nick19 (edited March 21, 2000).]
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Old March 20, 2000, 08:54 PM   #2
Art Eatman
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Well, we've had a number of friendly squabbles here about whether or not springs can turn to mush if left compressed for a long time. Lots of anecdotal stories on both sides.

So: What sort of steel is appropriate for springs which would be unaffected by long-term compression? What should a buyer look for, when looking for "quality" springs for pistol magazines, recoil springs, etc.?

Regards, Art
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Old March 20, 2000, 09:06 PM   #3
Will Beararms
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Nick19:

Since Ruger uses investment casting to make the SS Slides of their P Series autos, does the porous nature of the investment-cast slide account for the propensity of a Ruger SS P series slide to rust?

Many who own Sigs or Berettas will complain of finish wear or slight nicks on the frames during break-in. I contend that the surface hardness off the carbon or alloy steel frames is greater than the surface hardness of the aluminum frame resulting in inital wear spots on the finish or the slight indentations on the frame rails. Furthermore, I propose that a small amount of this is actually an indicator that the pistol has been manufactured to exacting tolerances for fit and finish. How do you feel about this?

Thanks for your insight and I'll see you in the re-education camps if we get Gored in November.

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Old March 21, 2000, 08:49 AM   #4
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Welcome aboard Nick19. Glad to have a genuine metallurgist in our ranks.
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Old March 21, 2000, 09:27 AM   #5
Nick19
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There is no reason a spring should turn to mush. The first time you compress it or flex it all the way, you may deform it slightly with some loss of 'spring', but after that it should not lose strength (unless it develops a crack from fatigue, but it should fail very soon after developing the crack).

The important properties for springs are yield strength (how much stress must be applied before it deforms permanently) and modulus (stiffness); spring alloys are designed to have a very high yield strength, although a spring can be made of almost anything if properly designed and fabricated (there are even ceramic springs). Steel springs are most common due to low cost and relatively high modulus.

When choosing springs, you need to choose ones that apply the appropriate tension, and you may look for alloys that are corrosion resistant (usually stainless). Most springs are carbon steel, however, because it costs less and has a modulus about 10% higher than that of stainless, which doesn't really matter if the spring is designed correctly (a stainless spring will be slightly thicker for the same spring strength).
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Old March 21, 2000, 09:54 AM   #6
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Will Beararms:
Nick19:

Since Ruger uses investment casting to make the SS Slides of their P Series autos, does the porous nature of the investment-cast slide account for the propensity of a Ruger SS P series slide to rust?
[/quote]

A properly designed investment casting should not be porous; the tendency to rust is controlled by the chromium and nickel contents of the particular alloy used (stainless alloys require approximately 12% chromium to be truly stainless, they resist rust through the formation of a very thigh high chrome oxide layer on the surface of the metal). A rough surface finish, which can be present on an investment cast part depending on the mold surface and some design parameters, can promote rust by trapping salt and moisture on the surface of the slide.

Incidentally, turbine blades in jet engines are investment cast with good surface quality and little or no porosity, so very good parts can be made this way.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Many who own Sigs or Berettas will complain of finish wear or slight nicks on the frames during break-in. I contend that the surface hardness off the carbon or alloy steel frames is greater than the surface hardness of the aluminum frame resulting in inital wear spots on the finish or the slight indentations on the frame rails. Furthermore, I propose that a small amount of this is actually an indicator that the pistol has been manufactured to exacting tolerances for fit and finish. How do you feel about this?
[/quote]

You are correct that a heat treated steel slide is much harder than aluminum alloy; however, anodizing produces a very thin layer of alumina (Al2O3) on the surface which is much harder than either. But the aluminum just under this alumina layer is still softer than the steel, and will give or deform when struck by the slide, which can result in removal of the anodized layer or denting of the aluminum. So you are right, but the very, very thin top layer of the anodized aluminum is very hard, which is what makes anodized aluminum suitable for cookware. Virtually all aluminum parts are anodized to prevent scratching and staining, and also for appearance.

A small amount of rubbing wear that is even along the slide rails would indicate that the tolerances were good; the spots showing wear are simply slightly higher than the surrounding material. Dents or nicks indicate that there is play between the slide and rails. Keeping the slide rails properly lubricated will help prevent this.

Hope this answers your questions.

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>
Thanks for your insight and I'll see you in the re-education camps if we get Gored in November.

[/quote]

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Old March 21, 2000, 10:44 AM   #7
4V50 Gary
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Here's a fun question for you Nick19:

The early Thompson SMGs applied the "Blish Principle" as part of their locking system. This considered the adhesive quality of some metals to others and was applied as a means of slowing down unlocking time. It was discarded as unnecessary to the design.

With our superior knowledge of metallurgy today, is there any validity to the Blish Principle with regards to firearms design?
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Old March 21, 2000, 01:38 PM   #8
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by 4V50 Gary:
Here's a fun question for you Nick19:

The early Thompson SMGs applied the "Blish Principle" as part of their locking system. This considered the adhesive quality of some metals to others and was applied as a means of slowing down unlocking time. It was discarded as unnecessary to the design.

With our superior knowledge of metallurgy today, is there any validity to the Blish Principle with regards to firearms design?
[/quote]

I was totally unaware of the Blish Principle, and I will look into this more when I get home (and to my reference books). It's pretty neat, though. My first thought is that the metals probably have to be clean to exhibit this effect, so you would have 2 unlubed surfaces bearing on each other at high pressures, which would result in a high wear rate. I think it would be difficult to make this work for a long lived firearm, although it might make for a very simple and compact mechanism.
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Old March 22, 2000, 12:08 PM   #9
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Nick19:

Welcome to TFL, the brain trust of the firearms world.

May we have your opinion of cryogenic treatment of metals? This is promoted to firearms consumers as beneficial for barrel life and/or accuracy.

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Old March 22, 2000, 02:11 PM   #10
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Slowpoke_Rodrigo:
Nick19:

Welcome to TFL, the brain trust of the firearms world.

May we have your opinion of cryogenic treatment of metals? This is promoted to firearms consumers as beneficial for barrel life and/or accuracy.

[/quote]

Well, my old ferrous alloys professor once told me that it was a scam, but there is experimental evidence that cryogenic treatment can improve wear properties of some ferrous alloys. The theory goes something like this:
When steel alloys are quenched from high temperature, most of the soft austenite phase transforms to the very hard martensite phase. For plain carbon steels, the transformation is complete or nearly complete, but for steels with higher alloy contents, some soft austenite is retained. The presence of these soft austenite regions is said to degrade the wear properties of the material. Additionally, stress can cause some of the regions to transform, which can cause a slight change in volume. This could result in a small shift of point-of-aim of the barrel as it is fired.

I am not sure how great an effect this retained austenite will really have on the accuracy of a firearm, but cryogenic treatment of the metal will cause some of it to transform. The effect should be stronger for stainless steel barrels and others with high alloy content.

I don't have any direct experience with cryogenic treatment of steels, but I have read an article about its improving of wear properties in a journal article (but it does depend on the alloy and heat treatment).

I'm not sure what normally causes a barrel to wear out (just wear or erosion of barrel throat by hot gasses); that would be a question a gunsmith could answer. If it is the latter case, I don't think cryogenic treatment is going to help. Also, I suspect that all of the austenite that is going to transform in normal use will do so after you fire the first hundred or so rounds; as long as you don't beat the barrel up after that it's probably pretty stable, and the only benefit you're really going to get is some better wear resistance. How much that's worth probably depends on your shooting habits and the cost of your barrel; and it may not be that much improvement depending on the barrel alloy.

I would be disinclined to spend much on this unless I had already worn out barrels through normal abrasive wear, or felt that I was shooting enought that I might. Even then I would want to talk to a competitive shooter who had done this and seen a real difference in barrel life. Finally, I would only consider treating the barrel. I don't know of any reasons cryogenic treatment would help metals other than hardened steel. Hope this answers your question.
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Old March 22, 2000, 03:16 PM   #11
James K
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Hi, Nick19,

First, thanks a lot for answering some of our questions. We deeply appreciate your help and your interest.

There has been quite a bit of talk about metal injection molding (MIM) for firearms parts. It appears that the technique is very useful where parts are not under stress, but in some cases MIM parts have failed when used to substitute for spring steel (Colt .45 type extractors) or placed under stress (barrel bushings on the same gun type). It seems that in some cases MIM technology has been used to save money without consulting a metallurgist or a design engineer. I would appreciate your views.

Jim
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Old March 22, 2000, 08:50 PM   #12
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Jim Keenan:
Hi, Nick19,

First, thanks a lot for answering some of our questions. We deeply appreciate your help and your interest.

There has been quite a bit of talk about metal injection molding (MIM) for firearms parts. It appears that the technique is very useful where parts are not under stress, but in some cases MIM parts have failed when used to substitute for spring steel (Colt .45 type extractors) or placed under stress (barrel bushings on the same gun type). It seems that in some cases MIM technology has been used to save money without consulting a metallurgist or a design engineer. I would appreciate your views.

Jim
[/quote]

I replied to a MIM thread a while back, and I really do think that there's a place for MIM parts in handguns. There is general some porosity present in these parts, however, and these pores can act as failure initiation sites when the parts are subjected to high loads. If you trust the designer, the MIM parts should be fine. If you think they are using them in places where the stresses are high enough to cause failure, then replace the ones that see the highest impact loads. Both of the parts you mention failing see pretty large impact loads. I suspect that if these parts are breaking, the problem is probably quality control, and a few parts with large scale porosity are making it past inspection.

Nick
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Old March 24, 2000, 04:55 AM   #13
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Nick,
I was wondering about Titanium parts like firing pins and strikers as used in Colt 1911's and Glocks. Some have a coating of Gold colored Titanium Nitrite which is supposed to be very hard? I have read that Titanium can only be hardened to a certain point which is less than steel. Will the Gold coating help the part wear better or is it just a good looking finish? I guess that it works well on drill bits though, but this is applied over steel not Titanium
Thanks,
Bob
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Old March 24, 2000, 08:43 AM   #14
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldspeed:
Nick,
I was wondering about Titanium parts like firing pins and strikers as used in Colt 1911's and Glocks. Some have a coating of Gold colored Titanium Nitrite which is supposed to be very hard? I have read that Titanium can only be hardened to a certain point which is less than steel. Will the Gold coating help the part wear better or is it just a good looking finish? I guess that it works well on drill bits though, but this is applied over steel not Titanium
Thanks,
Bob
[/quote]

Bob,

Titanium nitride is very, very hard; much harder than hardened steel, and should improve the wear resistance of parts coated with it. One issue, however, is how long this coating will last in impact loading. These coatings (TiN, TiCN, TiAlN, etc.) are very hard and stiff, and have different properties than the material that is coated. It's somewhat like an enamelled pan, or bathtub. The coatings impart rust resistance and wear resistance to the substrate, but if you drop something hard on them and chip them, the metal underneath is exposed. If you actually bend the metal underneath, the coating can crack and flake off easily. The loads for firing pins or strikers may not be severe enough to cause this; I'd want to see someone else spend their money on this first. On the other hand, if the coating flakes off or chips, you still have a titanium striker or firing pin.

I'm not sure I understand the reason for switching to a titanium firing pin or striker. I would think a more massive steel part would have more momentum and provide more reliable ignition. Rust should not be much of a problem, and the weight saved would be small. Is there really much improvement in performance with a switch to Ti?

Nick19
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Old March 24, 2000, 09:35 AM   #15
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Nick19,
I'm no expert but I believe the switch to titanium is for less momentum. A lighter firing pin and a stiffer firing pin spring reduces the chance of an accidental discharge if the gun is dropped on its muzzle. It is also a hedge against slam fires (Thinking the firing pin might not stop when the slide does). The lighter firing pin is probably of mor benifit in an AR15 than a 1911 though. Just my opinion...

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Old March 24, 2000, 01:05 PM   #16
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Say, I heard that chlorinated cleaning solvents can cause embrittlement in uncoated Ti parts. Any truth to this?

As an aside, I suspect that the Thompson's Blish Lock worked to slow the bolt only because the locking piece had to be cammed out of its seats in the receiver. Mr. Blish's theory was that the dissimiliar metals between the locking piece and the receiver helped to prolong the delay. However, it really should have worked no matter what metal the locking piece was used.
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Old March 24, 2000, 03:52 PM   #17
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Daniel Watters:
Say, I heard that chlorinated cleaning solvents can cause embrittlement in uncoated Ti parts. Any truth to this?

As an aside, I suspect that the Thompson's Blish Lock worked to slow the bolt only because the locking piece had to be cammed out of its seats in the receiver. Mr. Blish's theory was that the dissimiliar metals between the locking piece and the receiver helped to prolong the delay. However, it really should have worked no matter what metal the locking piece was used.
[/quote]

Titanium alloys are not subject to embrittlement by chlorine containing materials provided that oxygen is present in the environment; titanium derives its chemical resistance through the presence of an oxide layer. Dry (no water) reducing environments containing halogens (like chlorine) can cause stress corrosion cracking; if there is no water or oxygen present, the oxide layer cannot reform after a scratch or crack, and the base metal can be attacked. This may occur in some chlorine containing dry (no water) solvents. Titanium is also susceptible to hydrogen embrittlement in reducing environments. Reducing environments are those that will remove the oxygen from the metal surface (like some chemical silver polishes, which remove sulpher with a reducing solution). This can be prevented by the addition of water to the solvent (even low amounts will promote oxide formation). It probably wouldn't be a bad idea to avoid chlorinated solvents with titanium parts; if you are going to use them, add a small amount of water, and minimize soak time or exposure. Incidentally, titanium is often used for containers in industrial processes with chlorine containing compounds, but only in oxidizing environments (which promote rusting or oxidation of the titanium to form the thin protective oxide layer).

Thanks for the explanation; I couldn't find anything else on the Blish effect, and 4v50Gary sent me an email saying it was discredited anyway.

-Nick19

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Old March 24, 2000, 10:03 PM   #18
Art Eatman
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Nick19: The idea for the lighter firing pin and hammer is to decrease lock-time. It helps the top shooters, in competition. You're changing from a momentum-transfer to an energy-transfer system--sorta. It's a package deal.

In a 1911, if you lighten the hammer spring, you reduce the speed and thus the impact of the hammer. You more easily can get a light trigger-pull weight, however. So, you then use a lighter hammer. You lose momentum, but you gain speed and thus more energy put to the firing pin. Well, it might not be reliable with a standard pin, so you put in a lighter spring and a lighter pin, et voila!

And, as the gun cycles, there is less resistance to the slide from cocking the hammer, which affects the recoil spring...

In other words, Bubba, coordinate!

Is this not reminiscent of hot-rodding, where some think all that's needed is a bigger carburetor? Without thinking about valve diameter and camshaft lift and duration? And compression ratio, ignition advance curve and balancing? And on and on...

, Art
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Old March 25, 2000, 03:49 PM   #19
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Art,

Thanks for the explanation, I was thinking of it as a single part replacement.

-Nick19
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Old March 25, 2000, 10:02 PM   #20
James K
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FYI, the Blish principle used a bronze block that slid in an angled cut. Blish believed that adhesion under pressure would slow the bolt, and worked out that using bronze would be most effective. He supposedly got the adherence idea when he noticed that naval guns with interrupted thread breech blocks would resist turning when fired with live rounds, but would turn and open slightly when fired with saluting blanks.

Whether the Blish principle worked or not is still debated (though it sounds logical), but it was proven not to be necessary for the .45 ACP cartridge and later Thompson SMG models (M1 and M1A1) do not use it.

It is not true, as has been written, that troops "took out the Blish lock and threw it away." On the Model 1921 and 1928 TSMGs, the Blish lock provides the connection between the actuator (cocking knob) and the bolt. A gun without its lock cannot be cocked for the first shot or for insertion of a drum magazine.

Jim
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Old March 26, 2000, 02:52 AM   #21
Daniel Watters
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Actually, some units did remove the Blish lock from their early model Thompsons. In one Australian unit, the trick was that their armorer cut a machine bolt to the width of the Thompson's bolt and then screwed on a nut. The bolt and nut could then be dropped in to replace the Blish lock. I've also heard of armorers machining the locking flanges off of each side of the Blish lock.

Certainly, the Blish lock did not work for the exact reason that Commander Blish had given. And for a SMG, the Blish lock was an bit of over-engineering, just like the roller locking pieces on a MP5. The Thompson 'Auto Rifle' .30-06 used the same locking system. However, like other delayed blowback weapons, it had problems with extraction. For the Thompson .30-06, this was solved by either waxing or oiling the cases. Neither solution was considered to be suitable for military service. One wonders how well the rifle would have worked if it had a fluted chamber like the G3.

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Old March 26, 2000, 03:51 PM   #22
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Hi, Daniel,

Of course the actuator and bolt can be fixed permanently together, welding being one way. But that is not the usual picture, in hundreds of magazines and books, of the frustrated "Tommy", in the midst of firing at Rommel's troops, taking out the Blish lock and flinging it out into the wadi. After which, he went happily back to shooting Germans with no further problems.

Jim

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Old March 27, 2000, 05:27 AM   #23
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Nick,
Re: Titanium Nitrite coated parts? I have seen the shiny Gold colored coating which you said is very hard. What about the Black Ti coating that I have seen on a few gun parts and knife blades? Is it as hard as the Gold finish? The Gold looks like it would be more self lubricating and smooth but maybe only because it is shiny instead of flat black color? What process changes the color of the coating? I have read that it is very thin and requires high temperatures to apply?
Thanks,
Bob
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Old March 27, 2000, 10:36 AM   #24
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<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Oldspeed:
Nick,
Re: Titanium Nitrite coated parts? I have seen the shiny Gold colored coating which you said is very hard. What about the Black Ti coating that I have seen on a few gun parts and knife blades? Is it as hard as the Gold finish? The Gold looks like it would be more self lubricating and smooth but maybe only because it is shiny instead of flat black color? What process changes the color of the coating? I have read that it is very thin and requires high temperatures to apply?
Thanks,
Bob
[/quote]

There are several dark titanium based coating used to improve wear or corrosion resistance. TiAlN (TiN co-deposited with AlN) is usuallybrown to dark brown, TiCN is gray to black in color. These coatings, including TiN, must be applied at a high enough temperature to achieve metallurgical bonding with the substrate, typically 400 or 500 degrees C (roughly 700 to 900 degrees F). There may be newer processes that can be applied sucessfully at lower temperatures.
CrN is silver like chrome. The color depends mostly on the composition and somewhat on processing temperature and other process variables, while the smoothness depends on some processing variables and the texture of the substrate finish, I believe (though you should check this out with a company that provides these coatings, like www.brycoat.com).

Also, a titanium metal coating can be anodized to obtain a black or dark grey titanium oxide finish, which is also hard. I believe this is normally done with a trisodium phosphate solution, but the hard oxide is very thin, and probably much less durable than a TiCN black finish. I doubt this coating is used on knives or firearms, although I think it is used on some writing pens. Plasma coated titanium is a grey color as well, but not black.

Nitride coatings are very hard and wear resistant, and can also reduce the friction between components, but they are not truly self lubricating like molybdenum disulfide or teflon containing coatings. I believe that ORNL (Oak Ridge National Labs) has sucessfully applied TiN coatings containing MoS2, which would be a truly self lubricating TiN coating. I would guess that this coating would be much more expensive to apply than phenolic MoS2 containing resins like Gunkote, which are self lubricating and very tough.

The hardness of these coatings depends on a lot of variables, but they are all much harder than steel. I believe that TiN is the hardest, followed by TiN and then TiAlN, but I could be wrong (TiCN may be harder than TiN).

-Nick19
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Old April 1, 2000, 01:25 PM   #25
EQUALIZER
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Nick 19,

I am considering sending out a project to be finished in TiC or TiCN. The slide is steel and the frame is cast Al Alloy. I was told that I can request a "rose" colored finish if I wish, which is supposed to be applied at a lower temp. My question is, do you think that the high temps in which these are applied would cause the frame, (ie. high stress area of slide stop pin hole), to stress crack prematurely? I realize the coating is very hard/durable. I don't know if the strength of the frame in regards to cracks or dents would be positively or negetively affected. Do you know? Thanks.

robert

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