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Old July 3, 2019, 07:55 PM   #1
riffraff
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Lets talk binary triggers, anyone used a fostech echo 2 ?

Looking at parts for a lower I want to put together, as far as the heart of it Im thinking a binary trigger..

On paper and reviews I like the sound of the echo 2, supposedly prevents over running, works with mil spec BCGs, no special changes for 5.56 etc...

Anyone here have warnings or praises on this product? Isn't cheap but looks like about 360 i can get one for today and for what it is price seems alright.

Thanks in advance!
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Old July 16, 2019, 11:07 PM   #2
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Currently waiting to get out to the range to try my Franklin BFS Gen 3. It was having light primer strikes (like SUPER light, I don't even know why they give you that spring) so I replaced it with a strong one, as well as the strong buffer spring and a lightweight bolt carrier.


I'll let you know if I can outrun the trigger with it or not.
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Old July 20, 2019, 06:36 PM   #3
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I can't speak to the Echo, never tried one, but I have had several generations of the Franklin and currently have two of the latest one.

I love them. I have tried them on multiple AR platforms but find that I like it best on 5.56/.223 or a dedicated .22lr upper. (not so much with the conversion kits.)

It has a learning curve but once you get the hang of it, overrunning is not an issue.
The semi setting is good in itself but it really shines with controlled pairs.

Mag dumps are a waste of money and don't really seem to have much use beside being fun.

I keep waiting for one of them to finally release the AK version but I am thinking it might be vaporware.

If you are going to get one, I highly recommend getting a dedicated .22lr upper to hone you skills without breaking the bank. If you have unlimited resources and tons of 5.56 then rock on.
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Old July 20, 2019, 09:57 PM   #4
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I have the Echo... the newer one that uses the M16 bolt. Sitting in PA until I can finish the build. Probably a 20” upper, since I don’t have one.

I’m considering a Franklin Armory trigger along with a PTR 9CT, as I always wanted an MP5 clone. Was also thinking about a CMMG Banshee, for a truck gun (agency is switching to 9mm Glocks in the next few months)... which a Fostech trigger would be neat in that.

I like the Fostech for the piece that works sort of like an auto-sear... which doesn’t allow hammer follow. To me, if I’m going with a binary trigger in an AR... I’m going Fostech.

But not going to get one for my AK. Same reason for my only issue with the Fostech system... I hate those stupid selector levers. If they made ones that mimicked milspec, I’d be a lot happier.
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Old July 21, 2019, 08:35 AM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Screwball View Post
I have the Echo... the newer one that uses the M16 bolt. Sitting in PA until I can finish the build. Probably a 20” upper, since I don’t have one . . .
Just to be clear, are you saying that you own an Echo but have actually used it yet? Have you used someone's that has it already functioning?

The reason I asks is because I know folks that have tried both and most ended up with the Franklin.

If I ever find an Echo for the price that I paid for my Franklin's I would probably try it but so far haven't found one in the $300 range.
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Old July 21, 2019, 09:09 AM   #6
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sarge912 View Post
Just to be clear, are you saying that you own an Echo but have actually used it yet? Have you used someone's that has it already functioning?

I’ve tried my cousin’s Echo (original, with their bolt carrier). Shooting his (me being impressed with it) is how I received mine as a gift... and then picked up a stripped lower to build it on. NJ considers it a machine gun, so staying in PA until I make the move to ME.

I did shoot a CZ with the Franklin, but not an AR. I managed to out shoot the Echo a time or two... not saying hammer follow, but no second shot. That is why I went with the Echo.
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Old July 21, 2019, 01:47 PM   #7
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I've had binary triggers on my wish list since last year when I built a 9mm AR pistol, was looking to make something as close to a sub machine gun as possible and I may even put together a .22 LR conversion upper to use with the binary trigger too just to reduce costs and have more fun.

But I have no idea how well these binary triggers work, it seems for every success story I see, there's an equal amount of unsuccessful ones. At the prices these binary triggers sell for (which there's absolutely no reason they should cost more than what typical drop in triggers cost) I can't justify buying one without guarantees it will be successful in my AR's.

But I see Fotech has a non drop in model that costs significantly less, to the tune of well under $300, so that's promising and may be worth the risk of having issues, but even then, these binary triggers are still so new and don't seem to be all that popular as I've yet to meet anyone in person who has one and I've yet to see anyone at the range shooting with one.

The user base needs to grow and more feedback given before I jump into one.
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Old July 24, 2019, 07:16 AM   #8
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Mag dumps are a waste of money and don't really seem to have much use beside being fun.
Seems like a good enough use.
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Old July 24, 2019, 04:02 PM   #9
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So I just finished this the other day. (even though some think if needs a rail and a brace. )

4.5" Dedicated .22lr upper with CMMG bolt carrier group. (Dedicated, not conversion.) 1/16 twist. Slickside upper receiver.
Franklin Binary trigger, CMMG lower parts, Aero Precision (Burst Mode) lower receiver, Hogue grip. (Scope is 1-4, CP Tactical -pretty cheap but works fine on a .22lr.)

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Old July 24, 2019, 09:44 PM   #10
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And with a brace, but I like it better without. The CMMG does not require the buffer system.
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Old July 24, 2019, 09:50 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
I've had binary triggers on my wish list since last year when I built a 9mm AR pistol, was looking to make something as close to a sub machine gun as possible and I may even put together a .22 LR conversion upper to use with the binary trigger too just to reduce costs and have more fun.

But I have no idea how well these binary triggers work, it seems for every success story I see, there's an equal amount of unsuccessful ones. At the prices these binary triggers sell for (which there's absolutely no reason they should cost more than what typical drop in triggers cost) I can't justify buying one without guarantees it will be successful in my AR's.

But I see Fotech has a non drop in model that costs significantly less, to the tune of well under $300, so that's promising and may be worth the risk of having issues, but even then, these binary triggers are still so new and don't seem to be all that popular as I've yet to meet anyone in person who has one and I've yet to see anyone at the range shooting with one.

The user base needs to grow and more feedback given before I jump into one.
I built an AR-9 with a binary but it was the only platform that I didn't like it on.
The AR-9 recoil is pretty harsh and it required a lot of cleaning to keep running. Also, brass only. Steel and aluminum were both problematic.
I would like to build one in .45 ACP but haven't found parts that I am confident with. (that I can afford.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PaQH_SgSMZE
Above is a really short video of it in action.
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Old July 25, 2019, 02:26 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by sarge912 View Post
So I just finished this the other day. (even though some think if needs a rail and a brace. )

4.5" Dedicated .22lr upper with CMMG bolt carrier group. (Dedicated, not conversion.) 1/16 twist. Slickside upper receiver.
Franklin Binary trigger, CMMG lower parts, Aero Precision (Burst Mode) lower receiver, Hogue grip. (Scope is 1-4, CP Tactical -pretty cheap but works fine on a .22lr.)

This looks awesome. Can we get more pics plz? Is the rear with the buffer tube open or did you put some sort of plug in it?
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Old July 25, 2019, 11:08 AM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TruthTellers View Post
This looks awesome. Can we get more pics plz? Is the rear with the buffer tube open or did you put some sort of plug in it?
The back is open for right now. There is a tab on the top of the bolt carrier that prevents it from pushing through. I am considering putting thin plastic buffer (maybe cut from a black oil container or similar. I have a defective buffer tube that I might cut off a piece to hold it in place.

The Aero Precision lowers have a threaded hole for the rear takedown pin detent spring channel so I have a 4-40 set screw holding the spring and detent in. I have to clip the spring a bit but fortunately I had a spring that had been damaged on one end so I cut off the damaged part and it fit perfectly.



Selector switch showing Burst mode.
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Old July 26, 2019, 01:28 AM   #14
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Sarge, what barrel is that? Any links?
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Old July 26, 2019, 06:01 AM   #15
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https://www.righttobear.com/RTB-22LR...rtb22lr45m.htm
I was going to get the CMMG for a bit more but they were out of stock at the time.
They currently have a sale on the dedicated bolt carrier group from CMMG. Great deal from what I have seen in the past.

Palmetto has a good deal going of the .22lr rifle upper with BCG included. I have that also.
https://palmettostatearmory.com/psa-...516446934.html

I just found this even better deal.
https://www.righttobear.com/CMMG-22L...-p/22d5b6e.htm
CMMG barrel and carrier group together for only $240.

Last edited by sarge912; July 26, 2019 at 06:08 AM.
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Old August 20, 2019, 04:40 PM   #16
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BTW, I was wrong and others were correct. It really needs a brace for consistent accuracy in binary mode.
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Old August 21, 2019, 01:58 PM   #17
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I have a 1st Gen Franklin and a 1st Gen Fostech Echo. The echo works flawlessly, but the trigger is a bit heavy. The Franklin's trigger pull is really nice, but you can out-run the mechanism if you pull/release too fast when simulating "rapid fire". Perhaps Franklin fixed this in their later versions.

Personally, I'd go with the Echo - I understand that there is a spring kit that gets rid of the stock somewhat heavy pull.

I wish there were a couple of manufacturers out there that made a 3-way engraving on the receiver that said "safe" "semi" "Binary"
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Old August 22, 2019, 07:56 AM   #18
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I have a Franklin Armory and it's been flawless. While it's fun to do a mag dump, I don't care for that function. Where it does pretty well is doing drills with "controlled pairs". While it still takes some discipline and effort, my Geissele trigger is just as fast and as accurate. I have an Echo that I haven't installed yet, so no comparisons.

I am interested in putting the Franklin Armory AK trigger in my RPK solely for the purpose of doing some mag dumps though

The only issue, and maybe I'm spoiled with Geissele, is that I wish the semi-trigger on the FA was a little better.

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Old August 25, 2019, 07:22 AM   #19
sarge912
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Skans View Post
I have a 1st Gen Franklin and a 1st Gen Fostech Echo. The echo works flawlessly, but the trigger is a bit heavy. The Franklin's trigger pull is really nice, but you can out-run the mechanism if you pull/release too fast when simulating "rapid fire". Perhaps Franklin fixed this in their later versions.

Personally, I'd go with the Echo - I understand that there is a spring kit that gets rid of the stock somewhat heavy pull.

I wish there were a couple of manufacturers out there that made a 3-way engraving on the receiver that said "safe" "semi" "Binary"
Aero Precision makes one that says. Burst.



https://www.brownells.com/rifle-part...rod122916.aspx
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Old August 29, 2019, 03:29 PM   #20
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Now I really want that receiver!

I'll have to check out the Aero Precision receiver. Gonna be on my list!
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Old August 29, 2019, 04:53 PM   #21
sarge912
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It has several cool features. There is a set screw under the grip that allows you to snug the lower to the upper and another set screw (not included on this upper but you can find them on ebay) that retains the pin and spring for the rear take-down pin. I found that clipping the spring a bit makes it easier to install.
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Old August 30, 2019, 09:00 AM   #22
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Yes, that's a great lower. Here's my M4 clone I put together. It has the BFS Gen 3 in it now, hopefully I get to test it soon.

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Old September 26, 2019, 08:31 AM   #23
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...since posting, I've also happened to acquire said Fostech Echo 2. I have it in my 9MM, so I'll post its results as well. Shame I haven't gotten to the range in all this time...
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Old October 5, 2019, 11:49 AM   #24
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Finally made it to the range, and did some more testing with both triggers. The rifle I posted above has the Franklin in it, and my little 9mm AR pistol had the Fostech Echo II with a 9mm Fostech bolt in it.

First off, the 5.56's heavy hammer spring solved all light strike issues. It also has a Brownell's lightweight bolt carrier and Franklin Armory's uber-heavy buffer spring in it, and it now happily ran in binary. I was able to outrun the bolt only once, and that's when I was really cranking on it trying to get it to overrun the bolt. I would say trigger pull quality is on par with a well made mil-spec trigger. Nothing coated, polished or tuned but a perfectly acceptable mil-spec pull, with not much grit or too much travel. I'll do some more testing when I bring more ammo and less guns next time to really see how it behaves.

Next up was the Fostech. Before I even used it, i put the "3 gun spring" in the Echo which dramatically changed its trigger profile. It's a really small spring so I was surprised it would have such an impact. Semi trigger pull weight was right around 2.5 pounds, and binary is around 4. The semi trigger pull, dare I say is VERY good and smooth. It acts like a Geissele S3G trigger where there's no discernible break, just the "shelf" that drops off.

That being said, I had zero malfunctions after 5 mags' worth, it was happy with 115 gr standard velocity, as well as my giant subsonic 165gr reloads (which I thought was surprising). A friend that came with me was able to get it to hammer follow (strangely) but he and I both attributed it to learning the trigger, as it does take some getting used to ( I think he barely got it to trip in semi, and it may have attempted to double but even outran the disconnector. 99.99999% avoidable). I would still consider its performance 100% after the mag dumps i did with it.


Pros and cons that I've seen. For one, the Franklin trigger is MUCH simpler in construction. It's literally a mil spec trigger with an additional disconnector and a fancy safety lever, and made of much better material. Can still outrun it (and to get it to run properly, the recoil impulse is now relatively sharp for a 5.56), but mostly in a circumstance that I doubt I would encounter even under duress.

For the Fostech, I was shocked with how well it worked. I could bear down on the trigger and it would keep up no problem. I had originally put the Franklin in the 9mm, and binary mode in it was essentially useless - it was Hammer Follow City. Which is weird, because the Fostech allowed the 9mm's rate to get MUCH higher than the 5.56 with the Franklin. The thing I hate about the Fostech (that everyone else has said before) is the mediocre metal compositions they're using. I'll happily be the Internet's guinea pig to see if I can break it, as I bring that gun to the range about every time. If Fostech made the Echo II and its components out of tool steel, and with the advent of the 3-gun spring mod it would be a "shut up and take my money" situation for all of my ARs. It is also a PAIN IN THE REAR to install compared to a standard trigger - three hands is required to do it effectively. So if that thing breaks in the field, consider it NOT field serviceable unless you have another one in "drop in ready status" or bring a standard trigger with standard pins and safety lever.

Looking at the Franklin, yes, in some very small circumstances you can outrun it in 5.56 but I would consider it field serviceable. You must have its slave pin that keeps it together, but getting it in and out of the gun is perfectly reasonable.

If I had neither of them and had to choose one or the other... if it was a 9MM, Fostech all the way. 5.56, I'd go with the Franklin, but at that point I really see very little benefit over just having a very good trigger like an ALG ACT with a nice squishy buffer spring. My other AR allows me to be a more effective marksman.

If I can think of more random musings in the meantime, I'll add them to this post. If you have any direct questions about anything I'll do my best to answer them. I can take some specific pictures of things as well if you want.
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Last edited by MagnumWill; October 5, 2019 at 12:04 PM.
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Old October 6, 2019, 06:13 AM   #25
sarge912
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thanks for the update on the Echo. Sorry to hear that they are not made of good steel. I have hear that before on Fostech triggers. I have gotten to know the Franklins pretty well and will probably stick with them.

what weight buffer did you put in the 9mm. I picked up a heavier one (around a half pound) from JoeBob and it really improved its function with a binary trigger.
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