ROE for CCW take 2

silicon wolverine · July 26, 2006, 08:39 PM

After my last thread on this generated more flames in my email than the space shuttle ill take another stab at it. AND ILL DO MY BEST TO BE LESS ARBITRARY. OK. IF you have any, what are youre personal ROEs (rules of engagement) for CCW carry? And also how they apply to the examples ill put below. All examples assume you are armed and competent in its use.

Ex. 1 You are in Arby's/7-11/kroger and a BG comes in teh front door, gun in hand. He shoots the two cashiers adn the civilain standing in the front. He grabs the cash register, and makes for the door (30 feet away), shooting at anyone he can see. What do you do?

Ex.2 You are at the movies. Man, possibly intoxicated, waves a gun in the air and says hes going to shoot everyone in the place. What do you do?

Ex. 3 Mugger comes up to you and syas he has a gun in his pocket. He will shoot you if he doesnt get money. You have an opening to draw. What do you do?

I hope this is a little more to the point i was trying to explore. thanks to the staff for understanding on previous thread.

SW

Doggieman · July 26, 2006, 08:49 PM

it's freaky when people email flames. I feel like if they have something to say they can do it out in the open. You might want to consider disabling the "other users can email me" option if you think you're going to post controversial topics.

silicon wolverine · July 26, 2006, 08:59 PM

Thnaks DM I'll do that.

SW

atlctyslkr · July 26, 2006, 09:03 PM

1. Draw, duck & cover, challenge
2. Draw, challenge
3. Duck and cover, head for exits

Dwight55 · July 26, 2006, 09:40 PM

Silicon, . . . not meaning to flame or anything, . . . but the first, . . . first, . . . first thing any person with a CCW must understand: it ain't about property, . . . it's about lives/wellness, . . . and nothing else.

Ex. 1 You are in Arby's/7-11/kroger and a BG comes in teh front door, gun in hand. He shoots the two cashiers adn the civilain standing in the front. He grabs the cash register, and makes for the door (30 feet away), shooting at anyone he can see. What do you do?

Provided this jaybird don't shoot at me, . . . he's got a pass, . . . I'm watching him go as I'm using my left hand to dial 911, . . . my 1911 in my right hand with thumb on the safety, . . . tracking him out the door. I want to do all I can to give the three victims some kind of chance in case they're not hurt bad. Engaging bg will only delay help coming.

Ex.2 You are at the movies. Man, possibly intoxicated, waves a gun in the air and says hes going to shoot everyone in the place. What do you do?

When he draws down on someone, . . . he's got a problem, . . . I'm his worst night mare. Until then, . . . he's just a drunk, . . . and I hope he's smart enough to just go home and sleep it off.

Ex. 3 Mugger comes up to you and syas he has a gun in his pocket. He will shoot you if he doesnt get money. You have an opening to draw. What do you do?

Unless he really looks and sounds competent, . . . he'll get to pick up my billfold and everything that falls out of it as I toss it to him, . . . and we'll go from there. Otherwise, . . . I'll pull out the cash and hand it to him.

May God bless,
Dwight

AAshooter · July 26, 2006, 09:59 PM

1 & 2. Collect family and leave if possible.

3. Wallet toss and retreat.

ROE Rule: Your first bullet fired might cost you $100,000, your family's well being and/or your kid's college fund.

Doug.38PR · July 26, 2006, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Ex. 1 You are in Arby's/7-11/kroger and a BG comes in teh front door, gun in hand. He shoots the two cashiers adn the civilain standing in the front. He grabs the cash register, and makes for the door (30 feet away), shooting at anyone he can see. What do you do?

Since he is still a threat to myself and others, I'd return his fire if I was in a good enough position

Quote:

Ex.2 You are at the movies. Man, possibly intoxicated, waves a gun in the air and says hes going to shoot everyone in the place. What do you do?

Depends. HOW FULL IS THE THEATER. If I have a clear shot, I shoot him. If he starts shooting....even if I don't have a 100% sure shot, I might still shoot at him since he is murdering people and attempting to murder me. Taking a shot gives myself and the people around me a better chance to survive

Quote:

Ex. 3 Mugger comes up to you and syas he has a gun in his pocket. He will shoot you if he doesnt get money. You have an opening to draw. What do you do?

If I have an opening to draw? Killum.

silicon wolverine · July 26, 2006, 10:47 PM

I guess my point with Ex 1 was a choice by the CCw person of whether a person just generally shooting up a place is cause for firing. In my state that constitutes intent and siad person can be engaged without fear of prosecution. The BG In ex. 1 had already shown intent to kill, to me that makes him an engageable target if it is safe to do so. Both latter examples i agree with 100%.

SW

CDH · July 26, 2006, 11:00 PM

#1. One of the first things I learned after I got my CCW permit was that the very best defense is awareness. I now, always, look beyond my immediate activities I'm involved in and keep a bigger picture of what's going on around me.
That said, I would have drawn and shot the moment the BG came in the door and fired his first shot at someone. It is at that point where you are justified to protect others with deadly force.

#2. That's a tough one... what's the drunk's mood? Is he really angry about something? Is he focusing his attention on anyone or is he just acting stupid hoping for an audience? That's not enough info to make a judgement call on whether to act with deadly force. I will say that if he shot someone, it would be his last shot before meeting Jesus.

#3. Goodbye wallet. He's already got the advantage on me, so he gets the wallet and I let him go.
If he goes any further than taking the wallet and running, then I would know that he wants to make this encounter more fun for himself by going further than just the robbery, and that wouldn't bode well for me. In that case, I would be reasonably certain that he's not bluffing about the gun (if he only had a pencil in his pocket, he'd get the wallet and then run like hell, and I'd let him), so I would draw and fire at first available opportunity.

During all of this, I would be well aware of the $100,000 bullet, but I would be willing to let a jury of my peers hear my case and expect them to make the same reasonable decisions I did.
If they don't agree, well, I can always earn another $100,000, but I haven't yet figured out how to reincarnate myself at any price.

Howzat'? Did I pass?

Carter

tanksoldier · July 27, 2006, 12:16 AM

IMO you can't really do what you're trying to do here... and what many others try to do in similar "what would you do" threads.

Even under military ROE, situations that by description could sound exactly the same may in reality boots-on-the-ground be very different.

Recently a story was posted about an armed citizen who stopped a knife attack in a mall parkinglot. Seems very straightforward, there are few legal justifications to chasing someone around a parkinglot with a knife.

In another story, an off-duty sheriff deputy was on the second floor of a mall, heard gunshots, looked over the rail, saw man with a gun, and shot same. As it happened he got the right guy, but what if it had been a CCWer responding to gunshots fired by someone else?

In the end you will have to make a split second decision without complete information. Cops train for that sort of thing, and still make mistakes. I suspect few CCWers conduct similar training.

My suggestion to all is to get training, and perhaps shoot IDPA or ISPC once in a while. The use of modern firearms is a martial art just like any other weapon-style martial art. Owning a katana doesn't make you an iaido master; neither does owning a Les Baer custom .45 make you a proficient handgunner.

Train with a good school to get the fundamentals, practice shooting scenarios to maintain those skills and improve them and so that you will know your own capabilities. Then when something totally unexpected happens, like when you're standing in line a Wally World and the guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier, you'll have an idea of what you should do and what you're actually capable of doing.

Doggieman · July 27, 2006, 12:58 AM

so how would these ROE come into play in THIS TERRIFYING BRAWL:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVAjCfBRAs

springmom · July 27, 2006, 07:27 AM

...nor do I play one on TV, so I have no "rules of engagement" apart from "Do my best to get out of it alive".

In your questions I would take cover and call 911. Then (1) If the BG has already shot the clerk and civilians, etc., this is the best I can do. The gun is already firing, he is ahead of me on the curve. Unless I get very lucky I would only endanger myself by trying to position for a shot; (2) try to get out of there, crawling along the floor if need be (and old arthritic me doesn't crawl very easily, but I'd worry about my arthritis after I got out alive; (3) give him my money (I don't carry a wallet). Now, if he demands I go with him, that's a different situation altogether, and calls for much more urgent action, IMO.

What I would hope I would NOT do is overestimate my abilities and in so doing, end up dead for being stupid. What I would hope I WOULD do is do what I could to get myself and others out of it to see another sunrise.

Springmom

PythonGuy · July 27, 2006, 07:40 AM

Go home and watch a cop show on TV and get your jolly's that way rather then fantasizing about situations you can shoot people......

July 26, 2006, 09:40 PM	#5
Dwight55 Senior Member Join Date: June 18, 2004 Location: Central Ohio Posts: 2,568	Silicon, . . . not meaning to flame or anything, . . . but the first, . . . first, . . . first thing any person with a CCW must understand: it ain't about property, . . . it's about lives/wellness, . . . and nothing else. Ex. 1 You are in Arby's/7-11/kroger and a BG comes in teh front door, gun in hand. He shoots the two cashiers adn the civilain standing in the front. He grabs the cash register, and makes for the door (30 feet away), shooting at anyone he can see. What do you do? Provided this jaybird don't shoot at me, . . . he's got a pass, . . . I'm watching him go as I'm using my left hand to dial 911, . . . my 1911 in my right hand with thumb on the safety, . . . tracking him out the door. I want to do all I can to give the three victims some kind of chance in case they're not hurt bad. Engaging bg will only delay help coming. Ex.2 You are at the movies. Man, possibly intoxicated, waves a gun in the air and says hes going to shoot everyone in the place. What do you do? When he draws down on someone, . . . he's got a problem, . . . I'm his worst night mare. Until then, . . . he's just a drunk, . . . and I hope he's smart enough to just go home and sleep it off. Ex. 3 Mugger comes up to you and syas he has a gun in his pocket. He will shoot you if he doesnt get money. You have an opening to draw. What do you do? Unless he really looks and sounds competent, . . . he'll get to pick up my billfold and everything that falls out of it as I toss it to him, . . . and we'll go from there. Otherwise, . . . I'll pull out the cash and hand it to him. May God bless, Dwight __________________ www.dwightsgunleather.com If you can breathe, . . . thank God! If you can read, . . . thank a teacher! If you are reading this in English, . . . thank a Veteran!

July 26, 2006, 09:59 PM	#6
AAshooter Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2001 Posts: 379	1 & 2. Collect family and leave if possible. 3. Wallet toss and retreat. ROE Rule: Your first bullet fired might cost you $100,000, your family's well being and/or your kid's college fund. __________________ Play hard, shoot often, leave well worn guns!

July 27, 2006, 12:16 AM	#10
tanksoldier Senior Member Join Date: September 7, 2005 Location: Colorado Posts: 219	IMO you can't really do what you're trying to do here... and what many others try to do in similar "what would you do" threads. Even under military ROE, situations that by description could sound exactly the same may in reality boots-on-the-ground be very different. Recently a story was posted about an armed citizen who stopped a knife attack in a mall parkinglot. Seems very straightforward, there are few legal justifications to chasing someone around a parkinglot with a knife. In another story, an off-duty sheriff deputy was on the second floor of a mall, heard gunshots, looked over the rail, saw man with a gun, and shot same. As it happened he got the right guy, but what if it had been a CCWer responding to gunshots fired by someone else? In the end you will have to make a split second decision without complete information. Cops train for that sort of thing, and still make mistakes. I suspect few CCWers conduct similar training. My suggestion to all is to get training, and perhaps shoot IDPA or ISPC once in a while. The use of modern firearms is a martial art just like any other weapon-style martial art. Owning a katana doesn't make you an iaido master; neither does owning a Les Baer custom .45 make you a proficient handgunner. Train with a good school to get the fundamentals, practice shooting scenarios to maintain those skills and improve them and so that you will know your own capabilities. Then when something totally unexpected happens, like when you're standing in line a Wally World and the guy in front of you pulls a gun on the cashier, you'll have an idea of what you should do and what you're actually capable of doing. __________________ I am a Soldier. I fight where I'm told, and I win where I fight." GEN George S. Patton, Jr.

July 27, 2006, 07:27 AM	#12
springmom Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: Houston area Posts: 1,823	I am not a soldier... ...nor do I play one on TV, so I have no "rules of engagement" apart from "Do my best to get out of it alive". In your questions I would take cover and call 911. Then (1) If the BG has already shot the clerk and civilians, etc., this is the best I can do. The gun is already firing, he is ahead of me on the curve. Unless I get very lucky I would only endanger myself by trying to position for a shot; (2) try to get out of there, crawling along the floor if need be (and old arthritic me doesn't crawl very easily, but I'd worry about my arthritis after I got out alive; (3) give him my money (I don't carry a wallet). Now, if he demands I go with him, that's a different situation altogether, and calls for much more urgent action, IMO. What I would hope I would NOT do is overestimate my abilities and in so doing, end up dead for being stupid. What I would hope I WOULD do is do what I could to get myself and others out of it to see another sunrise. Springmom __________________ I will not be a victim home on the web: www.panagia-icons.net (my webpage) www.nousfromspring.blogspot.com (Orthodoxy) "I couldn't hear you. Stop firing the gun while you're talking!" Frank Drebin, The Naked Gun

July 26, 2006, 08:39 PM	#1
silicon wolverine Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2006 Location: South dakota Posts: 674	CCW scenarios take 2 After my last thread on this generated more flames in my email than the space shuttle ill take another stab at it. AND ILL DO MY BEST TO BE LESS ARBITRARY. OK. IF you have any, what are youre personal ROEs (rules of engagement) for CCW carry? And also how they apply to the examples ill put below. All examples assume you are armed and competent in its use. Ex. 1 You are in Arby's/7-11/kroger and a BG comes in teh front door, gun in hand. He shoots the two cashiers adn the civilain standing in the front. He grabs the cash register, and makes for the door (30 feet away), shooting at anyone he can see. What do you do? Ex.2 You are at the movies. Man, possibly intoxicated, waves a gun in the air and says hes going to shoot everyone in the place. What do you do? Ex. 3 Mugger comes up to you and syas he has a gun in his pocket. He will shoot you if he doesnt get money. You have an opening to draw. What do you do? I hope this is a little more to the point i was trying to explore. thanks to the staff for understanding on previous thread. SW

July 26, 2006, 08:49 PM	#2
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	it's freaky when people email flames. I feel like if they have something to say they can do it out in the open. You might want to consider disabling the "other users can email me" option if you think you're going to post controversial topics.

July 26, 2006, 08:59 PM	#3
silicon wolverine Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2006 Location: South dakota Posts: 674	Thnaks DM I'll do that. SW

July 26, 2006, 09:03 PM	#4
atlctyslkr Senior Member Join Date: March 6, 2006 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 613	1. Draw, duck & cover, challenge 2. Draw, challenge 3. Duck and cover, head for exits

July 26, 2006, 10:47 PM	#8
silicon wolverine Senior Member Join Date: April 28, 2006 Location: South dakota Posts: 674	I guess my point with Ex 1 was a choice by the CCw person of whether a person just generally shooting up a place is cause for firing. In my state that constitutes intent and siad person can be engaged without fear of prosecution. The BG In ex. 1 had already shown intent to kill, to me that makes him an engageable target if it is safe to do so. Both latter examples i agree with 100%. SW

July 26, 2006, 11:00 PM	#9
CDH Senior Member Join Date: August 18, 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 941	#1. One of the first things I learned after I got my CCW permit was that the very best defense is awareness. I now, always, look beyond my immediate activities I'm involved in and keep a bigger picture of what's going on around me. That said, I would have drawn and shot the moment the BG came in the door and fired his first shot at someone. It is at that point where you are justified to protect others with deadly force. #2. That's a tough one... what's the drunk's mood? Is he really angry about something? Is he focusing his attention on anyone or is he just acting stupid hoping for an audience? That's not enough info to make a judgement call on whether to act with deadly force. I will say that if he shot someone, it would be his last shot before meeting Jesus. #3. Goodbye wallet. He's already got the advantage on me, so he gets the wallet and I let him go. If he goes any further than taking the wallet and running, then I would know that he wants to make this encounter more fun for himself by going further than just the robbery, and that wouldn't bode well for me. In that case, I would be reasonably certain that he's not bluffing about the gun (if he only had a pencil in his pocket, he'd get the wallet and then run like hell, and I'd let him), so I would draw and fire at first available opportunity. During all of this, I would be well aware of the $100,000 bullet, but I would be willing to let a jury of my peers hear my case and expect them to make the same reasonable decisions I did. If they don't agree, well, I can always earn another $100,000, but I haven't yet figured out how to reincarnate myself at any price. Howzat'? Did I pass? Carter

July 27, 2006, 12:58 AM	#11
Doggieman Senior Member Join Date: April 19, 2006 Location: San Diego, Calif. Posts: 717	so how would these ROE come into play in THIS TERRIFYING BRAWL: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1tVAjCfBRAs

July 27, 2006, 07:40 AM	#13
PythonGuy Junior member Join Date: November 4, 2004 Location: Long Island, NY Posts: 456	Go home and watch a cop show on TV and get your jolly's that way rather then fantasizing about situations you can shoot people......