The .243 vs the .308 - Page 2

flashhole · June 15, 2017, 06:07 PM

Explain to me what you believe the advantages of 30 cal are over other calibers available to the hunter.

zipspyder · June 15, 2017, 06:20 PM

I think he is confused. The .308 was designed as a short action hunting cartridge derived from the 7.62x51. It is a great hunting cartridge and one of the most popular in the world. The reasons he uses seem kind of un-factual to say the least. Why someone has to be so bias against a certain caliber seems odd.

dgludwig · June 15, 2017, 06:28 PM

Good grief, flashhole, I'm not making any argument about caliber size, pro or con. I am only curious as to why you think a caliber size/cartridge (the .308) is not suited for the hunting you do because it was "designed for killing people". Then you later add, in an apparent contradiction, that a caliber size/cartridge (the 45-70 Government), also developed with killing people in mind, is the best possible choice for the hunting you do.

Maybe I'm not understanding the intent of your posts or maybe the wording of your posts has sent me down a rabbit's hole. Or maybe the rationale of your posts don't hold water. Makes no difference to me anymore because, at this point, it's not worth my while to keep biting at the bait.

Best to you and good hunting with the cartridges of your choice, for whatever reasons you prefer them.

Art Eatman · June 15, 2017, 07:23 PM

All firearms were invented with the idea of killing people. Hunting came later.

**44 AMP** · June 15, 2017, 10:50 PM

Quote:

All firearms were invented with the idea of killing people. Hunting came later.

AND, when taken hunting, early firearms weren't very good at it. Most game doesn't care for the smell of slow matches...Bows and spears were better game getters than early firearms.

I'm not certain, but I think firearms didn't begin to be efficient hunting tools until someone figured out how to use shot on birds. And later, when the flintlock came along was when firearms began to come into their own a hunting weapons.

And wasn't the percussion system invented (or at least pioneered) by a Scottish parson who was looking for more reliable ignition for duck hunting??

zipspyder · June 16, 2017, 10:52 AM

Quote:

AND, when taken hunting, early firearms weren't very good at it. Most game doesn't care for the smell of slow matches...Bows and spears were better game getters than early firearms.

I'm not certain, but I think firearms didn't begin to be efficient hunting tools until someone figured out how to use shot on birds. And later, when the flintlock came along was when firearms began to come into their own a hunting weapons.

And wasn't the percussion system invented (or at least pioneered) by a Scottish parson who was looking for more reliable ignition for duck hunting??

And gunpowder was invented by the Chinese to be a potion for unlimited life.

dgludwig · June 16, 2017, 06:00 PM

Quote:

And gunpowder was invented by the Chinese to be a potion for unlimited life.

Doesn't work, I can tell you. The stuff actually shortens life. The more I use it, the older I get.

zipspyder · June 16, 2017, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Doesn't work, I can tell you. The stuff actually shortens life. The more I use it, the older I get.

Agreed, it had the most horrible opposite effect they could imagine.

Art Eatman · June 16, 2017, 06:41 PM

Face it: Both cartridges have their good points as to use, and both have limitations. It's easy enough to figure out the which is what for either.

cjwils · June 16, 2017, 09:56 PM

Quote:

All firearms were invented with the idea of killing people.

That may be true for firearms in general, but many specific calibers are not in that category. The 243 is one such.

I can attest that the 243 is very effective on deer.

disseminator · June 16, 2017, 10:11 PM

If it's choice between these two: 308 for sure.

You may find yourself wanting more power with the 243 but the 308 will put down anything in North America.

308

bamaranger · June 17, 2017, 02:27 AM

My experience with the .308 begins with a M88 Winchester, left to me by my grandad. With it, I dropped the first dozen or so whitetails of my early hunting years. Results were as one might expect from a full power .30 cal cartridge launching 180 and later 150 gr slugs in the 2600-2800 fps range. Very dead deer, and pronounced wounds. Some dropped at the shot, others made the short death sprint. The M88 was scoped in those days with a fixed 4x. Recently I put a better 6x on it and still hunt it on occassion.

My next .308 was an F-TR rifle, assembled by a friend so as to shoot in NRA matches. Using a common Savage 110 sporter long action, a longish .308 heavy barrel was fitted, a weighted Choate stock, Sinclair bipod, and a Burris 6-24x XTR scope. The completed rifle weighs over 17 lbs and is solely a bullet launcher for longer ranges. Most of my (poor) F-TR shooting was done at midrange 2-5-600 yds and a couple of 1000 yard matches to boot. I shot one bullet weight, 175 gr Match Kings. I learned alot about loading quality ammo, struggled with doping the wind, and competed against myself. My only real goal was not to finish last.

When Savage introduced their Hog Rifle, in .308, I wanted one. The shorter, stubby medium weight barrel, with no nonsense matte finish, blind magazine ( no box to lose) tupperware stock, and ample bolt knob seemed all business and very appealing as an affordable, HD/GP workhorse. I ran up on a deal on a used one and brought it home. Couldn't resist putting something on that threaded muzzle, so a GI style A2 flashider got attached. A fixed 6x42 in heavy XTR mounts went on top for sighting. The Hog Rifle likes 180 gr Nosler Ballisti Tips and shoots them in tidy clusters. I give it due care, but don't wory about scratches or dings, muddy rides on the ATV, or wet weather. It's a bit heavy as a GP rifle, but very close otherwise to ideal for any game to say 500 lbs and a variety of conditions.

Long enough post....243 comments later.

Art Eatman · June 17, 2017, 11:05 AM

cjwils, my point is that shunning a use because of original intent is not any sort of objective thought. Shunning a cartridge because of its original use for killing people is purely emotional. However, if that attitude were to be followed in a consistent manner, that person would not use a gun at all.

zipspyder · June 17, 2017, 11:50 AM

Quote:

cjwils, my point is that shunning a use because of original intent is not any sort of objective thought. Shunning a cartridge because of its original use for killing people is purely emotional. However, if that attitude were to be followed in a consistent manner, that person would not use a gun at all.

Bingo...it's a circular argument that lacks being totally thought through.

To each their own of liking or not liking a specific caliber it's just hard to wrap my head around that one.

bamaranger · June 19, 2017, 12:43 AM

Forgot my Savage .308 Scout. Had followed Cooper's scout rifle writings from when they first surfaced in the 70's. When Savage released their affordable scout, ( the early model w/o all the gadgets) I bought one and attached the obligatory IER 2.75x scope. I hunt it abit every deer season, shoot it a good bit more on paper for general practice, haul it in the truck, hung it on limbs on campsites, nearly all the roles a GP rifle was to fulfull. Lighter than the Hog Rifle by a good bit, the Scout goes up trees for whitetails, and I tote it about when just rambling some times. Actually got the Scout long before the Hog rifle. When I hunt the scout,it launches Sierra 150 spitzers, and I use bulk 147FMJ slugs (from Wiedners) for GP and practice.

I own a pair of .243's. One is my Dad's Savage 110, with 3-9x40 glass, the other a Mossberg 800M (mannlicher style stock) with fixed 6x36 glass. The Savage is a full size sporter, the Mossberg a shorter carbine. The Savage does not get out much, I hunted a season or two after Dad's passing, then bamaboy hunted it a while longer. What the Savage accomplished was to open my eyes to how easy the .243 was to shoot, and how well it dropped deer . I believe I've seen more bang/flops from the .243's than any other caliber. Most of these were deer killed by the boy when he was younger. The boy also poked a small buck way out there for a kid, a lasered 260 yds. That deer ran a bit, but not far. When the chance came to buy the Mossberg (I'd never seen an 800M) it did not bother me a bit it was .243 caliber. I've had some of my own .243 bang/flops since then. We shoot 100 gr Partitions from the .243's.

One against the other? Two of these rifles are heirlooms ( M88 and the Savage 110), and I am very selective as to the circumstances I hunt them. One of the .308's (F-TR rifle) is purely a bullet launcher and has a sole role (which I have not pursued in a couple of years or more...cost). Along that same line of thought, when shot in strings as is found in match shooting, the .243 is known as overbore and a barrel burner. The .308 in general will hold up longer under those conditions. (5000-6000 rds?). As hunting rifles, the .308 is more cartridge, with its ability to take heavy, tough .30 caliber slugs, I suppose you could take any game in NA, and other parts of the world as well. Not an ideal choice, but very versatile. Not that I will ever get to hunt anywhere but here in the U.S.!!! But the .308 is likely more gun than really needed for most deer hunting. I think this is especially true when conditions are somewhat controlled, like over food plots, feeders, and from shooting houses/towers with an available rest. In those conditions, one can often pick and choose their shots, and the smaller slug of the .243 is plenty deadly enough. That is how I hunt the Mossberg 800M. When shots are not as predictable, I take one of the shorter .308's. I am not concerned too much about angles with the .30's, and feel certain the 150-180's can drive through any reasonable angle I choose to shoot at on a whitetail. The Hog rifle with its bright 6x42 lets me see to shoot in the worst conditions, and under good circumstances, it is splendidly accurate and can work on game on ROW's as far out as the other deer calibers. The Scout is not so easy to work with past 200 yds or so due to its tiny scope, but carries easy, goes up trees easy, and I can shoot its IER scope better than irons, in worse light too.

Long posts, thanks all for your indulgence.

603Country · June 19, 2017, 09:38 AM

Did the OP ever say what he planned to do with the rifle/caliber? If he plans to hunt deer and smaller critters, the 243 will do Ok. If deer and larger are the objective, then the 308 would be a much better choice.

I don't own a 243, but I do load for the grandson's 308 (reduced loads), and I personally hunt with a 260 these days, with 100 grain and 120 grain Nosler BT's. After shooting quite a few deer with the 260 in both those bullet weights, I have come to the conclusion that the 120 gr bullet is a bit more effective than the 100 grain on deer. Both work just fine, but it seems that the heavier bullet puts them down a bit faster. That is even more noticeable when shooting hogs in the 200 pound class. So, based on my extensive 'research', and and having to pick between 243 and 308, I'd choose a 308 over the 243 for deer and hogs, and would shoot 150 gr bullets. What I require of a caliber is to put the deer or hog down before they can drag, jump, hop, or flop into the impenetrable brush, and I found that the 100 grain bullets just didn't reliably do that.

Having shot probably 300 or so deer over the decades, using a variety of calibers, my actual favorite caliber for deer is the 270, but the light weight and low recoil of the 260 has me toting a Tikka T3 in 260 as I've aged. I love the rifle and caliber and think of it as a '270 Lite'.

June 15, 2017, 06:07 PM	#26
flashhole Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2005 Location: Owego, NY Posts: 2,000	Explain to me what you believe the advantages of 30 cal are over other calibers available to the hunter. __________________ ,,, stupidity comes to some people very easily. 8/22/2017 my wife in a discussion about Liberals. Are you ready for civil war?

June 15, 2017, 06:28 PM	#28
dgludwig Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 2005 Location: North central Ohio Posts: 7,486	Good grief, flashhole, *I'm not making any argument about caliber size, pro or con.* I am only curious as to why you think a caliber size/cartridge (the .308) is not suited for the hunting you do because it was "designed for killing people". Then you later add, in an apparent contradiction, that a caliber size/cartridge (the 45-70 Government), also developed with killing people in mind, is the best possible choice for the hunting you do. Maybe I'm not understanding the intent of your posts or maybe the wording of your posts has sent me down a rabbit's hole. Or maybe the rationale of your posts don't hold water. Makes no difference to me anymore because, at this point, it's not worth my while to keep biting at the bait. Best to you and good hunting with the cartridges of your choice, for whatever reasons you prefer them. __________________ ONLY AN ARMED PEOPLE CAN BE TRULY FREE ; ONLY AN UNARMED PEOPLE CAN EVER BE ENSLAVED ...Aristotle NRA Benefactor Life Member

June 17, 2017, 02:27 AM	#37
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	both My experience with the .308 begins with a M88 Winchester, left to me by my grandad. With it, I dropped the first dozen or so whitetails of my early hunting years. Results were as one might expect from a full power .30 cal cartridge launching 180 and later 150 gr slugs in the 2600-2800 fps range. Very dead deer, and pronounced wounds. Some dropped at the shot, others made the short death sprint. The M88 was scoped in those days with a fixed 4x. Recently I put a better 6x on it and still hunt it on occassion. My next .308 was an F-TR rifle, assembled by a friend so as to shoot in NRA matches. Using a common Savage 110 sporter long action, a longish .308 heavy barrel was fitted, a weighted Choate stock, Sinclair bipod, and a Burris 6-24x XTR scope. The completed rifle weighs over 17 lbs and is solely a bullet launcher for longer ranges. Most of my (poor) F-TR shooting was done at midrange 2-5-600 yds and a couple of 1000 yard matches to boot. I shot one bullet weight, 175 gr Match Kings. I learned alot about loading quality ammo, struggled with doping the wind, and competed against myself. My only real goal was not to finish last. When Savage introduced their Hog Rifle, in .308, I wanted one. The shorter, stubby medium weight barrel, with no nonsense matte finish, blind magazine ( no box to lose) tupperware stock, and ample bolt knob seemed all business and very appealing as an affordable, HD/GP workhorse. I ran up on a deal on a used one and brought it home. Couldn't resist putting something on that threaded muzzle, so a GI style A2 flashider got attached. A fixed 6x42 in heavy XTR mounts went on top for sighting. The Hog Rifle likes 180 gr Nosler Ballisti Tips and shoots them in tidy clusters. I give it due care, but don't wory about scratches or dings, muddy rides on the ATV, or wet weather. It's a bit heavy as a GP rifle, but very close otherwise to ideal for any game to say 500 lbs and a variety of conditions. Long enough post....243 comments later.

June 19, 2017, 12:43 AM	#40
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,300	another .308, and then .243 Forgot my Savage .308 Scout. Had followed Cooper's scout rifle writings from when they first surfaced in the 70's. When Savage released their affordable scout, ( the early model w/o all the gadgets) I bought one and attached the obligatory IER 2.75x scope. I hunt it abit every deer season, shoot it a good bit more on paper for general practice, haul it in the truck, hung it on limbs on campsites, nearly all the roles a GP rifle was to fulfull. Lighter than the Hog Rifle by a good bit, the Scout goes up trees for whitetails, and I tote it about when just rambling some times. Actually got the Scout long before the Hog rifle. When I hunt the scout,it launches Sierra 150 spitzers, and I use bulk 147FMJ slugs (from Wiedners) for GP and practice. I own a pair of .243's. One is my Dad's Savage 110, with 3-9x40 glass, the other a Mossberg 800M (mannlicher style stock) with fixed 6x36 glass. The Savage is a full size sporter, the Mossberg a shorter carbine. The Savage does not get out much, I hunted a season or two after Dad's passing, then bamaboy hunted it a while longer. What the Savage accomplished was to open my eyes to how easy the .243 was to shoot, and how well it dropped deer . I believe I've seen more bang/flops from the .243's than any other caliber. Most of these were deer killed by the boy when he was younger. The boy also poked a small buck way out there for a kid, a lasered 260 yds. That deer ran a bit, but not far. When the chance came to buy the Mossberg (I'd never seen an 800M) it did not bother me a bit it was .243 caliber. I've had some of my own .243 bang/flops since then. We shoot 100 gr Partitions from the .243's. One against the other? Two of these rifles are heirlooms ( M88 and the Savage 110), and I am very selective as to the circumstances I hunt them. One of the .308's (F-TR rifle) is purely a bullet launcher and has a sole role (which I have not pursued in a couple of years or more...cost). Along that same line of thought, when shot in strings as is found in match shooting, the .243 is known as overbore and a barrel burner. The .308 in general will hold up longer under those conditions. (5000-6000 rds?). As hunting rifles, the .308 is more cartridge, with its ability to take heavy, tough .30 caliber slugs, I suppose you could take any game in NA, and other parts of the world as well. Not an ideal choice, but very versatile. Not that I will ever get to hunt anywhere but here in the U.S.!!! But the .308 is likely more gun than really needed for most deer hunting. I think this is especially true when conditions are somewhat controlled, like over food plots, feeders, and from shooting houses/towers with an available rest. In those conditions, one can often pick and choose their shots, and the smaller slug of the .243 is plenty deadly enough. That is how I hunt the Mossberg 800M. When shots are not as predictable, I take one of the shorter .308's. I am not concerned too much about angles with the .30's, and feel certain the 150-180's can drive through any reasonable angle I choose to shoot at on a whitetail. The Hog rifle with its bright 6x42 lets me see to shoot in the worst conditions, and under good circumstances, it is splendidly accurate and can work on game on ROW's as far out as the other deer calibers. The Scout is not so easy to work with past 200 yds or so due to its tiny scope, but carries easy, goes up trees easy, and I can shoot its IER scope better than irons, in worse light too. Long posts, thanks all for your indulgence.

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June 15, 2017, 06:20 PM	#27
zipspyder Junior member Join Date: June 13, 2017 Posts: 429	I think he is confused. The .308 was designed as a short action hunting cartridge derived from the 7.62x51. It is a great hunting cartridge and one of the most popular in the world. The reasons he uses seem kind of un-factual to say the least. Why someone has to be so bias against a certain caliber seems odd.

June 15, 2017, 07:23 PM	#29
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	All firearms were invented with the idea of killing people. Hunting came later.

June 16, 2017, 06:41 PM	#34
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	Face it: Both cartridges have their good points as to use, and both have limitations. It's easy enough to figure out the which is what for either.

June 16, 2017, 10:11 PM	#36
disseminator Senior Member Join Date: November 26, 2016 Location: Minnesota Posts: 960	If it's choice between these two: 308 for sure. You may find yourself wanting more power with the 243 but the 308 will put down anything in North America. 308

June 17, 2017, 11:05 AM	#38
Art Eatman Staff in Memoriam Join Date: November 13, 1998 Location: Terlingua, TX; Thomasville, GA Posts: 24,798	cjwils, my point is that shunning a use because of original intent is not any sort of objective thought. Shunning a cartridge because of its original use for killing people is purely emotional. However, if that attitude were to be followed in a consistent manner, that person would not use a gun at all.

June 19, 2017, 09:38 AM	#41
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	Did the OP ever say what he planned to do with the rifle/caliber? If he plans to hunt deer and smaller critters, the 243 will do Ok. If deer and larger are the objective, then the 308 would be a much better choice. I don't own a 243, but I do load for the grandson's 308 (reduced loads), and I personally hunt with a 260 these days, with 100 grain and 120 grain Nosler BT's. After shooting quite a few deer with the 260 in both those bullet weights, I have come to the conclusion that the 120 gr bullet is a bit more effective than the 100 grain on deer. Both work just fine, but it seems that the heavier bullet puts them down a bit faster. That is even more noticeable when shooting hogs in the 200 pound class. So, based on my extensive 'research', and and having to pick between 243 and 308, I'd choose a 308 over the 243 for deer and hogs, and would shoot 150 gr bullets. What I require of a caliber is to put the deer or hog down before they can drag, jump, hop, or flop into the impenetrable brush, and I found that the 100 grain bullets just didn't reliably do that. Having shot probably 300 or so deer over the decades, using a variety of calibers, my actual favorite caliber for deer is the 270, but the light weight and low recoil of the 260 has me toting a Tikka T3 in 260 as I've aged. I love the rifle and caliber and think of it as a '270 Lite'.