Maybe a dumb question (OAL)

[kmaldona]

I just got my set of calipers in today and was looking in my book and saw that the OAL for a 9mm should be 1.169. I measure a WPA round and it was 1.104 and a winchester hollow point and it was 1.086.

When my press comes in what should I make my OAL?

I shoot a smith and wesson mp 9 and a sig sauer p250

[mehavey]

Go with exactly what's in the manual you will be using, ...for the exact bullet they list.
It's not the OAL that's critical, it's the shank depth of the bullet when seated inside the case
above the powder -- and that is determined by specific bullet and its shape.

[steve4102]

OAL is not manual specific, it is firearm specific. You need to find the OAL that functions and feeds in your firearm.

[Jim243]

Go with exactly what's in the manual you will be using, ...for the exact bullet they list. It's not the OAL that's critical, it's the shank depth of the bullet when seated inside the case above the powder -- and that is determined by specific bullet and its shape.

Follow Mehavey's recommendation. It is BULLET dependent. The manual's are specific as to amount of powder and length for the load they are recommending for each type and mfg of bullet. Using the MAX OAL is only to indicate what will fit in your magazine. The amount of space between the heel of the bullet and the bottom of your case is what is important.

Jim

[serf 'rett]

Additional thoughts:
Get more than one manual.
Buy powder, primer and bullet shown in your manuals.
Start with lower weight powder charge and work your way up, while maintaining same OAL.
Check for function in firearm.
Have fun developing and testing loads.

[jepp2]

Go with exactly what's in the manual you will be using, ...for the exact bullet they list. It's not the OAL that's critical, it's the shank depth of the bullet when seated inside the case above the powder -- and that is determined by specific bullet and its shape.

This is great advice and you should follow it.

But, it isn't always possible to do so in all cases. So for general guidance regarding if you cannot:
- realize the 9mm has a very high range of OAL (some load as short as ~1.000" and as you mentioned 1.169" is the max)
- the 9mm can also be very sensitive to minor changes in OAL - which change the bullet seating depth and that changes the volume in the case for the powder. In the worst cases a reduction in OAL by as little as 0.020" could increase peak pressure by over 10K psi. That is a LOT!.
- if you have to reduce OAL for a listed load, reducing the powder charge may be necessary.
- all of the above is just part of the reason why you should always start at the minimum listed load when developing a new loading.

[snuffy]

If you are starting loading for 9mm, you are starting with possibly the hardest to load of any semi auto cartridge.

The 9mm is a short tapered case, with a bigger bullet than should be in it. It therefore has a very limited powder capacity. Then to add to that, it is a high pressure shell. All this makes seating depth a very critical item. Then, to further complicate matters, the magazines have little room in them, they always want the grip smaller so the mags are smaller. This makes the whole shell have to be short on overall length.

This is one shell that you should follow the loads in the manuals EXACTLY. If you're loading speer bullets, get a speer loading manual. Hornady, then get the Hornady manual. The shape of the bullet base has a lot to do with the pressure they will be running at.

For instance, the speer gold dot bullet has a concave bottom. That allows it to be seated a bit deeper without compromising space for powder and lowering pressure. Follow manual directions exactly, all will be good.

[kmaldona]

I am using these bullets.

http://www.missouribullet.com/details.php?prodId=146

So my OAL should be 1.090 maximum or minimum?

[dmazur]

From the Hodgdon site -

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

Select "Pistol" and "9mm Luger". Look at the data for 115gr LRN, which is apparently what you have.

You'll see a suggested COL of 1.100". I'm not sure what you mean by maximum or minimum. It is the recommended loaded overall length for a 115gr lead round nosed bullet.

As decreased length in 9mm can cause dangerous pressure rise, I would treat it as a minimum length.

Maximum length will probably be dictated by either

1. When does it stop fitting in your magazine, or
2. When does the bullet hit the rifling and prevent proper chambering.

A good "cheat" is to check factory ammo with a similar bullet, and measure that to determine a COL that will feed reliably. Then, if you find load data for a similar COL, you are good.

The advice given above is sound...follow the data in the manuals. If you can't find the exact same bullet you're using, at least use data that matches the bullet type (jacketed vs lead), weight and profile (shape), then start with lower charges and work up. Lower charges may not cycle your pistol reliably, but it is safer to start on the low end.

[wncchester]

Goodness. I've been doing this stuff a looong time and have never even paid attention to any book OAL. I first seat for good feeding and chambering and work to adjust the powder charge for best accuracy. Then I tweak the seating/crimp/primers to see if accuracy can be improved. Load books give us guidance but they are not engineering tables; we only have to compare the differences in any two manuals to see that! ??

IF we have to exactly match the components and measurements used in some book we may as well use factory ammo because there would be no other advantage to handloading except cost; and there's not much savings for several popular handgun cartridges! Plus, there would be LOT of commercial and cast bullets we couldn't use because there are no specific book loads to guide us around by the hand for them.

[Shotgun693]

When loading for a semi-auto pistol, I always tried to use a loaded factory round using the same weight and shape bullet as a guide to how deep to seat the bullet. I also never saw the point in pushing things by loading real hot loads. I'd start with the minimum listed powder charge then work up until the gun reliably worked. I figured I was loading for practice not serious carry.

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by mehavey

Go with exactly what's in the manual you will be using, ...for the exact bullet they list. It's not the OAL that's critical, it's the shank depth of the bullet when seated inside the case above the powder

OMG! And this is a reloading forum? OAL is very pistol/barrel specific. So, what if the OAL listed in the published load data won't feed/chamber in YOUR pistol/barrel? Some pistols with particular ramp design and very short leade won't feed/chamber the published OALs and the reloaders must adjust the OAL for reliable feeding/chambering.

Originally Posted by Jim243

Follow Mehavey's recommendation. Using the MAX OAL is only to indicate what will fit in your magazine.

Originally Posted by jepp2

This is great advice and you should follow it.

No, this is bad advice and you should not follow it.

Determining Max OAL is so that the nose of the bullet is not crammed against the rifling when chambered and when powder ignites, chamber pressure won't spike. Also, for barrels with longer leade, if the bullet has to jump longer distance to the start of rifling, more high pressure gas will leak around the bullet which will delay consistent chamber pressure build up and this may affect consistency of muzzle velocities and accuracy. For lead bullets, this will aggravate gas cutting and bullet base erosion and blow liquefied lube out the barrel leaving the bullet unlubricated which will results in more leading. If you are wanting greater accuracy, Max OAL will help build chamber pressures faster for more consistent muzzle velocities which results in greater accuracy.

Once Max OAL is determined, next, Ideal OAL must be determined to ensure the finished round will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine when the slide cycles. Often, Ideal OAL will be shorter than Max OAL.

Do you all realize that published load data are typically developed using test barrel fixtures/universal receivers (not real pistols) and OAL listed in load data won't guarantee that OAL will feed/chamber reliably in YOUR pistol/barrels? Determining Max and Ideal OAL is something reloaders must do using their pistols/barrels prior to full powder work up.

Originally Posted by wncchester

Goodness. I've been doing this stuff a looong time and have never even paid attention to any book OAL. I first seat for good feeding and chambering

Amen!

Here's a typical 9mm bullet comparison picture with various bullet types and nose profiles with differing OALs that all feed/chamber well in MY pistols.




Here's the process I use to determine Max and Ideal OAL when I work up a new bullet:

1. Make sure resized cases drop freely into the barrel chamber. If not, adjust the resizing die to ensure the cases are resized full-length and fall in freely into the chamber.

2. Determine Max OAL - Make a dummy round (no powder/primer) and perform the barrel drop test starting with the SAAMI max OAL until it falls in freely with a "plonk" and spin without hitting the start of rifling. To determine the amount of taper crimp to return the flare back to flat, I usually add .020" to the diameter of the bullet (So for 9mm .355" diameter bullet, .375" taper crimp and for .356" bullet, .376" taper crimp).

3. Determine Ideal OAL - Load the Max OAL dummy round in the magazine and manually release the slide without riding the slide with hand. Incrementally decrease the OAL until dummy round reliably feed/chamber. Depending on the pistol/barrel used, Ideal OAL that will work reliably will vary. If you are reloading for multiple pistols, use the Ideal OAL that will work reliably in all the pistols.

4. Conduct powder work up using Ideal OAL - Regardless of the scale used, I highly recommend the use of check weights to verify the accuracy of powder charges to 1/10 of grain (my accepted standard for match grade loads) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/212...ight-check-set

Not all factory/aftermarket pistol barrels have the same groove diameter, leade length, rifling type as used in the test barrels to develop load data that result in different high pressure gas leakage and may require different powder charges to produce same chamber pressures. If you do not have a chrono (or can't use one because you are shooting at indoor ranges), I typically use consistent shot group sizes as indicator of consistent chamber pressures without exceeding published load data (when shorter OALs are used, I often use a slight buffer headroom near the max load data - maybe .2-.3 gr less).

Variations in the published load data are due to variations in reloading/testing components. Many post they will follow the bullet manufacturers' load data instead of powder manufacturers but the fact is even when using the same bullet, their pistol barrel may not duplicate the chamber pressures the test barrel fixtures produced.

Starting with the published start charge (or 10% below max), load 10 rounds of each increment of .1-.2 gr in powder charge. If using shorter OAL than published/typical for bullet type, I will decrease my start charge by .2-.3 gr. For initial range trip, 3 rounds are shot at 7-10-15 yards and shot groups are compared to identify charge range that reliably cycled the slide/extracted cases while looking for accuracy trends (usually 2-3 powder charges will stand out). On range trip #2 and subsequent trips, I will verify most accurate powder charges with 5 round shot groups at 7-10-15 yards (Typically, I will use 3 consecutive range tests to verify the accuracy of particularly accurate loads).

Conducting full work up allows you to identify the most accurate powder charge for the particular bullet/OAL combination and lighter target/plinking loads that still produce accurate shot groups while reliably cycling the slide/extracting the spent cases.

[mehavey]

Gentlemen, we're making this harder that it has to be... especially for a new reloader.

Now that the bullet is identified, look at...
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...60#post6294760
posts #1 and #3
See also: http://www.brianenos.com/forums/inde...post&p=1567615

So the OAL for that bullet in those guns ranges from 1.100 to 1.130"

Note also that QL says the pressure is nominal for that 4.3-4.5gr W231 when compared to the
load data for the same-shape .355, 115, Sierra FMJ RN (#8115) even at the shorter (1.100") OAL.
(1.090 wouldn't hurt my head either. Whatever feeds best at this point.)










And yes, this is a reloading forum,... where sometimes too much information confuses rather than clarifies.

[Rangefinder]

Good-grief people, lets not over-complicate things and scare the guy!

To the OP>> This is not rocket science--related somewhat, but not quite as crazy

BDS-THR gives a good step-by-step, and you should read it through and understand it well. It's not complicated, just a good set of procedures to get in the habit of.

One thing I want to point out and make sure you understand is that loading lead is NOT the same as loading jacketed. Unless you're very lucky, there tends to be a lot more development involved with getting a load that performs well--at the same time it is very rewarding. I don't know what you've chosen for powder, but for THAT bullet I show Accurate #2, #5, or #7 according to Modern Reloading 2nd Edition and a minimum OAL of 1.100. Seating DEEPER than that (shorter) will cause higher pressure, and that is one part you need to be concerned with. Seating longer than that is generally more forgiving, so long as your chamber will accept the cartridge without the bullet resting on the lands.

With lead, a lot of people make the mistake of thinking they just load and shoot, same as jacketed, and they usually have a bad experience with poor accuracy, leading of the barrel, key-holing, etc. Understanding the differences ahead of time will greatly increase the fun potential you can have. There is more than I could possibly write in a post, but I suggest you hang out and read some postings in the Cast Bullets section--it will be time well-spent. You'll find that once you have a firm grasp on the basic fundamentals and a healthy respect for the few lines that you DO NOT CROSS, the view of possibilities opens up wide. Someone said earlier that these books are NOT engineering tables to be followed exactly--they are simply safe guidelines to use in developing your own sets of guidelines specific to your firearms. If they were exact and not to be stepped away from in the least, I wouldn't be using your spent 9mm cases crammed with lead to make jacketed Hollow Points to spit down the barrel of my .40S&W---that would be pure craziness!! But don't tell that to my .40 because it sure shoots them well (that's called swagging, something for another discussion). Also, I'm not sure what you're feeding this round through, but don't be too quick to believe all the nonsense that generally gets spewed about shooting "lead through this is bad", "shooting lead is dirty", and such. You've chosen a really great, fun, rewarding hobby. Some of us have turned it into obsession and are glad to see a potential new delinquent among us. Welcome aboard!

[BDS-THR]

Sorry for the long-winded reply post but that was a cumulative result from some similar discussions on the "other" forum. Ultimately and simply, use your pistol/barrel to determine the OAL that will feed/chamber reliably and work up the powder that will reliably cycle the slide while producing accurate shot groups.

Originally Posted by mehavey

So the OAL for that bullet in those guns ranges from 1.100 to 1.130"

I often reload for multiple pistols/shooters (family, friends, even neighbors who may join me to the range). This means I often have to use an OAL that will work in all of them and have to decrease the OAL. The picture I posted shows 1.080" OAL of such round but I have tested the same bullet from 1.080"-1.125" OAL. If I am shooting my Glock with long leade factory barrel, it will feed longer OAL but if I am shooting other pistols/barrels, I need to use shorter OAL. Ultimately, it is the pistol/barrel and not the bullet that will determine the OAL used. As to the published OAL in load data, I only use them as reference as I usually try to use the longest OAL that will work to develop more consistent chamber pressures sooner for greater accuracy.

[kmaldona]

I am using bullseye powder

[mehavey]

1. Start at 4.0gr Bullseye and 1.13" OAL.
2. If it feeds from the magazine and the slide locks up, shoot it
3. If the slide fully functions and feeds the next round, you have a low-to-mid load starting point.

Note 1:
2A. Test cartridge fit before loading too many: If the slide won't go fully home (e.g., because the
bullet is too long), seat it gradually deeper to until it does -- 1.09" being the limit for now.

Note 2:
Stay between 4.0 and 4.3gr Bullseye for now/until you get comfortable. Velocities should
range between 950 - 1150fps.

LawyerSpeak: These recommendations come from combining input from multiple manuals for
multiple bullets of approximately the same dimensions -- both FMJ and Lead -- and compared
against QuickLoad readings* as backup.

YMMV. Start low and work up.




*Yes, I am aware of QL's limitations in these particular circumstances w/ small straight-walled cases.
That's why Manuals and QL are compared against each other.

[buck460XVR]

Most manuals and published loads give the maximum OAL for that bullet. This OAL length is usually safe in any modern firearm. This does not mean that this length will feed properly in YOUR firearm and adjusting the OAL by shortening it may be necessary. One needs to realize that published pressures and velocities were determined with this seating depth and if one needs to shorten the OAL, they will be reducing case capacity and thus need to adjust their powder charge accordingly. In other words, if you are at max for a load recipe with a particular bullet, and you need to seat it deeper than the published OAL for reliable feeding, you need to reduce the load. If you are at minimum to mid level, odds are you'll be fine. A new loader tho, should always back down to starting charges and work back up whenever changing components or OAL. In revolvers, using listed OALs is moot, because most revolver bullets use a cannelure and this determines OAL. Once you have more experience, this will all be very basic.

[Jim243]

LOT of commercial and cast bullets we couldn't use because there are no specific book loads to guide us around by the hand for them

That's a good idea, DON'T USE THEM (unless you cast your own and size them). If the bullet mfg doesn't test them and publish their data why should I trust them. Barry's Bullets comes to mine on this (neither fish nor fowl but something in between).


Jim

[BDS-THR]

Originally Posted by Jim243

If the bullet mfg doesn't test them and publish their data why should I trust them. Barry's Bullets comes to mine on this

Actually load data for Berry's plated bullets are in the process of being tested/published by powder manufacturers Hodgdon and Alliant so stay tuned - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthrea...68#post7225968

Originally Posted by Berry's MFG

We just don't have the facilities to run the tests properly to avoid the pitfalls of the liability. I will say that both Hodgdon and Alliant are working on load data as we speak. My number one goal is to have data in hand to answer the most asked questions we get.

[Jim243]

Berry's plated bullets are in the process of being tested/published by powder manufacturers Hodgdon

I am still waiting, it's been nearly two years now and I am sitting with over 400 bullets that I need info on.


Thanks
Jim

[BDS-THR]

Oh my, I wouldn't wait on the release of new load data to load Berry's bullets.

Since Berry's plated bullets are sized larger than typical jacketed bullet diameters, I tend to follow their suggestion and use lead load data or start-to-mid range jacketed load data.

BTW Jim, what caliber/bullet weight are they?

[wncchester]

"Originally Posted by Jim243:
If the bullet mfg doesn't test them and publish their data why should I trust them. Barry's Bullets comes to mine on this"

Well, everyone should work within his own comfort zone and I wouldn't presume to suggest anyone else do as I do. But I would hang my head in shame if I had to have others lead me around by the hand like a kid who doesn't have a clue how to deal with a simple question such as "book" OAL vs. what I need.

[Rangefinder]

I am still waiting, it's been nearly two years now and I am sitting with over 400 bullets that I need info on.

Jim, I'd be sitting on these is both a little uncomfortable AND not doing much to increase the velocity. LOAD 'EM! If you need data, give us the spec's and we'll dig it up, find one suitable, or tell you what some of us might have already done with that bullet. I fire "experimental" bullets all the time--I think we can get yours down-range safely.

[1SOW]

kmaldona:

I just got my set of calipers in today and was looking in my book and saw that the OAL for a 9mm should be 1.169.

1.169 is the saami "maximum oal" for 9mm luger pistols.
The oals listed in load data is the "minimum" oal to stay at or below the pressures listed in the data. I personally don't know any data that lists 1.169"as the "minimum oal" for a 9mm luger load.

All 9mm 'magazines' should able to accept 1.169" cartridges. Depending on the bullet profile, not all 9mm chambers will.

Hope this makes sense.