A really ugly shooting from Philly...

[orangello]

This kind of thing crossed my mind one night while bringing my pistol in from the trunk of my car. In MS, it is AOK for a 21+ civilian to carry in their home or car, but what about between the two. In a private yard, i feel OK, but at an apartment i would be worried.

BTW, Any Philly people wanting a more gun friendly environment could vote with their Uhauls and move to a more reasonable city, perhaps one in Mississippi.

[mete]

I think there's more to this story that will come out .

This business of training cops to instantly shoot when they hear the word 'gun' is a very dangerous practice !!!
There was a recent example of this when a situation involved two different agencies. A member of Agency A arrived ,in plain clothes, carrying a long gun.The members of Agency A knew him so he was no threat to them. Members of Agency B did not know him and one of them shouted 'gun' and the officer was shot !!!
Poor training , stupidity etc !

[2guns]

MLeake, I think you have hit the nail on the head. If any of you folks care to do some further reading about mis-conduct of PPD toward open carry folks please go to: PAFOA.ORG

There are numerous stories about PPD doing exactly what you say. Some of the stories actually show video accounts of cops harassing law abiding citizens. Gun owners here in PA are getting sick and tired of cops who do not obey the law. Right now there is a demonstration being planned to high-light this wrongful behavior of the PPD.

From your post #22:

"Open carry is legal in PA, too, so as written the cop should have had no cause to assume a crime was in progress, nor to act as he did.

"There was a thread a while back, though, about a PPD interoffice memo instructing Philly officers to stop and verify status of open carriers, with an underlying intent to discourage OC."

It is not the job of cops to enforce their prejudices (anti-gun) because they feel the need to hold the monopoly on use of force.

[GoOfY-FoOt]

The victim isn't a non-white minority and so maybe that aspect will be curtailed.

But, the victim IS an extra white guy, with very short hair....hmmmm.

[MLeake]

Let me start out by saying that in my circle of people with whom I regularly train on the mat or at the range, 25-30% are cops. I whitewater with cops, go boating with cops, etc.

My cousin is a retired cop, for that matter.

I don't have anything against cops, as a group.

But this incident is really troubling. The thing that bothers me most is that the shooter LEFT THE SCENE.

I can't think of anything that justifies that. Period. Should have been calling dispatch immediately, via his cell phone (I don't know a cop who carries a gun, but not a phone at the same time off-duty) or the victim's phone. Should have been ensuring EMS was sent. Should have been doing any number of things that were not what he actually did.

While we still need more facts, initial impression of this one is very, very negative.

[Jim March]

Well the war of words on this just got uglier, from another cop:

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-2...ficers-witness

[Evan Thomas]

Jim, I think that article is about a different case. The man shot in the case described in the OP was named Josh Taylor. The link you posted gives the name of the person shot as Kwende Williams, and the officer who shot him is said to have been on-duty, "working in an area that is a grittier part of the city."

I think I'm glad I'm not spending time in Philly any more, though.

[MLeake]

Um, Jim, what Vanya said. Not related at all.

[LordTio3]

And the second article was from yesterday, 24 hours prior to the OP article.


Yet it is still no less of an ugly issue.

~LT

[MLeake]

In general, I think there are a lot more shootings where people want to find fault with the cops (and shouldn't), than shootings where the cops are clearly in the wrong. A whole lot more, in fact.

But the particular shooting under discussion, so far, does not strike me as one of those. This one, unless accounts so far are way off, fails the smell test. Shooting officer left the scene, and did not return; victim taken to hospital in private car, not by EMS... If those turn out to be true facts, this is not good.

[Edward429451]

...and my jurisdiction wants me to openly carry my pistol to and from my house to vehicle...I never did feel good about that so do not. Now I know why.

[Double Naught Spy]

This is interesting. The cop that shot Taylor was apparently a new resident in the neighborhood and was helping another relative move in across the street.
http://www.favstocks.com/philadelphi...ghbor/2750222/

While the wife who was not outside at the start of the incident claims there was no controversy outside over a parking space (see links in OP's original link), at least one bystander reported this to be the case. http://www.upi.com/Top_News/US/2011/...4031303817395/

http://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/...120656234.html

And check the videos in this link ^. The witness noticed the disturbance. Also notice that the girlfriend who claims that Taylor did not wrong was nowhere near around at the start of the incident.

[MLeake]

DNS, your comment on the girlfriend escapes me. She's said right along that she was in the house, so what point are you trying to make? That she didn't see whatever led up to the shooting? She didn't say she was outside for the initial events, only that when Taylor came into the house, he closed the door, and the gun was in his back pocket, and that she witnessed the shooting in her home, as did her two kids.

All three reports indicated that the officer made no calls for backup prior to pursuing into Taylor and Britton's home.

Two of the three had a neighbor state that things apparently started out as an argument over a parking spot.

PPD spokesperson apparently acknowledged there was no prior call for backup, before the officer went into Taylor and Britton's home.

The officer did not secure the scene of his own shooting.

One article mentioned that IA found a casing three or so feet outside the door, as though that called into question whether the shooting could have taken place inside. Three feet is well inside the throw range of any of my autos, and if the cop opened the door, entered, and shot, that's where I'd expect to find brass, about three feet outside.

Also, some people say the cop had just moved into the neighborhood. PPD apparently say, no, he was helping a relative move. Another account has the cop helping his sister move in. It does not appear the cop and Taylor knew each other.

Edit: It also appears that Taylor may lose his liver. Last I saw, he was in a medically-induced coma, and being given 50% odds of surviving. Hopefully for all involved, he survives; hopefully, if things are as bad as they seem, the city quietly pays for a liver replacement and all related costs.

[Evan Thomas]

As usual... conflicting reports, and not enough information to say for sure what led up to the shooting.

But this, from the first link posted above by Double Naught Spy, seems to me to get at the crux of the matter: "...if Taylor was visibly displaying a weapon, the officer was expected to take action. He would, however, be expected to identify himself as an officer." (Emphasis mine.)

This report (from the Chicago Tribune) of an investigation into the handling of shootings by off-duty police indicates that in some places, at least, there's a double standard when it comes to off-duty officers who are involved in shootings, even when the context is a bar fight or a traffic dispute.

But if an off-duty police officer fails to identify himself, his actions ought to be subject to the same "smell test" as those of any other citizen. If one of us, non-LEO types, pursued someone into his home, shot him, and then left the scene without calling 911, I think the consequences might be a bit more severe than being placed on desk duty pending an investigation.

[Glenn Dee]

Hello guys...
I'd like to comment on this thread. Having been a cop for many years, I have my own take I'd like to share. If everything I'm reading is correct. This Officer should be arrested.

First off... If he noticed what he percieved to be a dangerous situation the most prudent thing would have been to "call the cops" and allow uniformed on duty officer to investigate the situation. There was no emergent situation requireing imediate action, there was no ones life in imminent danger, There was no evidence of a crime being commited. Only the articuable suspicion of the possiblity of a crime being commited. I dont believe this off duty officer had any right to enter the home of a citizen without a warrant, or a reasonable belief that he could under exception of a warrant.

According to the information available... This was a bad shooting.

Glenn D.

[SauerGrapes]

I haven't been following the story because it's on the news all the time in Philly. Someone is always shooting someone else every night. I end up tuning it out after a while.
The City of Philadelphia is not friendly to anyone carrying a gun. Open carry is legal in Philly only if you have a LTCF.
It doesn't matter if the guy had the gun in a case or not. He's allowed to transport it to and from a range,gun shop, mom's house, etc. There also are no brandishing laws in the state of Pennsylvania.
This is the kind of BS that keeps me from doing anything in Philly if I can avoid it.

[Casimer]

As usual... conflicting reports, and not enough information to say for sure what led up to the shooting.

Unfortunately most Philly news outlets have very loose standards when it comes to reporting incidents like this. You'll drive yourself crazy trying to get to the facts of the matter.

The two aspects that raise red flags for me, which are consistent across the reporting, are the officer's conduct after the shooting, and the point that Glenn brings up - why did he pursue Taylor into the home? If he truly believed that Taylor had pointed his pistol at him, why would he blindly pursue him into a house?

[SRH78]

Wow...

According to the story, the LEO who was in plain clothes wasn't threatened until after he forced his way into the man's home with weapon drawn. I don't see this ending well and it definitely doesn't look good. I had a much longer post typed up but I will just leave it at that.

[SRH78]

Well said Glen.

[Double Naught Spy]

DNS, your comment on the girlfriend escapes me. She's said right along that she was in the house, so what point are you trying to make? That she didn't see whatever led up to the shooting? She didn't say she was, only that when Taylor came into the house, he closed the door, and the gun was in his back pocket, and that she witnessed the shooting in her home, as did her two kids.

If the point escapes you, then I don't think you have read her statements or the OP very closely. The OP claimed that the officer said a gun was pointed at him, but that witness statements were to the contrary. There were NO witness statements to the contrary. There are none supporting, but contrary to the OP, nothing to the contrary. FYI, I looked at 30+ accounts trying to find out if JM's contrary witness accounts could be found, but nothing could be found.

The girlfriend, Britton, has made all sorts of comments about what went on. She claims that there was no disagreement on the street. There were no words exchanged over a parking place. She stated that there were no sounds from the street at all and that the first sign of trouble of which she was aware was when her boyfriend burst in the house and then the cop came in and shot him.

So yeah, she is claiming to know what led up to the shooting and stating in interviews what happened before the time of which she had any idea what happened. She says her husband never pointed a gun at the cop. She can't possibly know that. She says there was no altercation. Witnesses who were outside actually witnessed it. She says there was no argument over a parking spot, but once again, she wasn't there and it was witnessed. These statements were strong enough that the OP apparently believed she was a witness. 2guns apparently believed it as well. She certainly speaks like she is a witness, stating definitively what did and did not go on before her boyfriend was shot.

And what is up with all the folks here noting that the gun was unloaded. If Taylor did point it at the cop, would the cop know it was unloaded? Of course not. It doesn't matter if it was unloaded or not in terms of what is being perceived at the muzzle end of it.

One article mentioned that IA found a casing three or so feet outside the door, as though that called into question whether the shooting could have taken place inside. Three feet is well inside the throw range of any of my autos, and if the cop opened the door, entered, and shot, that's where I'd expect to find brass, about three feet outside.

My 1911 throws brass about 7-10 feet. We did car drills at Thunder Ranch where I was on the driver's side and firing and my brass was hitting my partner outsdie of the passenger side AFTER traveling through the interior of the car. I agree. If the door was open, it could be no problem for brass to be outside even if he was a few feet in the house.

-----

With all this said, my disounting of the girlfriend's comments and such, I can't see where the cop did anything right. I am not sure that he has to call in anything while it is occurring and he may not have had the capability to do so being off duty, but I can't imagine the cop claiming (some time in the future) that he ran away and hid at his sister's place after shooting Taylor because he was scared of possible repurcussions from Britton or her kids. At most, he would have retreated to cover outside of the house and awaited backup, right? He knew it would have to be coming, that somebody would call 911.

[MLeake]

DNS, you and I must have read different articles and seen different videos. I have seen nothing where she claimed to know what happened outside. The comments I heard her make on video were that the first she knew of it was when Taylor ran into the house.

The neighbor who was interviewed said they had an argument loud enough to get his attention. However, he was outside.

I see no discrepancies here, just two very different vantage points.

Pretty sure, though, that if ANY witness had seen Taylor point a weapon, PPD brass would be shouting that to the press.

And again, the major flag for me is the officer's behavior after the shooting.

[Uncle Buck]

Something else that has been bothering me about this report.

The officer entered the house, looked at the girlfriend, shoots the guy and leaves.

Lets say everything else is OK with the scenario leading up to this part of the encounter... Why would he just look at her and not order her to the floor? Order her to raise her hands? Tell her not to move?

Nothing in any training I have ever had taught me to ignore a possible threat. If I were chasing an armed man into a house/apartment, I would be concerned for my safety and anyone I found there would be put under control.

This just sounds more and more like a case of road rage taken to a wrong, disastrous level.

[nathaniel]

This just sounds more and more like a case of road rage taken to a wrong, disastrous level.

Bingo! Sounds to me like a 17 year veteran lost his cool and made the wrong move. If this woulda been two civilians the shooter would be locked up by now.

Edit: Dont get me wrong I hold the utmost respect for law enforcement officers (Im actually going to start school for criminal justice here in a year or two). But wrong is wrong doesnt matter if its a cop, the pope, or president obama, the law isnt and shouldnt be different for anyone.

[SRH78]

Mixed up the stories.

He still didn't do them any PR favors though.

[Casimer]

http://articles.philly.com/2011-04-2...ficers-witness

That article is in reference to a different shooting, of Kwende Williams.

* Jonathan D. Josey II, the author, basically states that he does not recognize the laws of PA regarding firearms possession and regards anyone in possession of a firearm as an 'imminent threat', to be dealt with accordingly.