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Old December 4, 2018, 08:36 AM   #1
Troop362
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CCW on Cell Phone

Can anyone tell me if having a picture of my CCW on my cell phone is the same as having the issued CCW in my possession while carrying my handgun? Some states now recognize having picture of your driver license as being valid.
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Old December 4, 2018, 08:51 AM   #2
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I am awed by the trust you place in your cell phone battery.
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:00 AM   #3
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:22 AM   #4
FITASC
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I know as an election poll worker, I had someone who used their phone to show me their license; and she was allowed to vote as that was considered acceptable as a form of photo ID.
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:29 AM   #5
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Quote:
I know as an election poll worker, I had someone who used their phone to show me their license; and she was allowed to vote as that was considered acceptable as a form of photo ID.
I'm not sure this is an apples-to-apples comparison. Meaning that if the poll worker had denied the ID, there would have been lots of potential "consequences" (like CNN breathing down their throats). With a CCW, the only consequence of denial that the enforcer would face would come via the CCW carrier themselves (and even that would not likely be immediate - as in a complaint to supervisor, etc.)
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:50 AM   #6
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With more and more electronic ways of doing things (like Apple Pay, etc.), having a photo on your phone of a legitimate photo ID that is clearly readable and current shouldn't be an issue, IMO.
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Old December 4, 2018, 10:26 AM   #7
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Not in Colorado. You have to have your actual permit on you.

18-12-204.2 (a) A permittee, in compliance with the terms of a permit, may carry a concealed handgun as allowed by state law. The permittee shall carry the permit, together with valid photo identification, at all times during which the permittee is in actual possession of a concealed handgun and shall produce both documents upon demand by a law enforcement officer. Failure to produce a permit upon demand by a law enforcement officer raises a rebuttable presumption that the person does not have a permit. Failure to carry and produce a permit and valid photo identification upon demand as required in this subsection (2) is a class 1 petty offense.

There have been inquiries made of DAs and the AG and they have all said it has to be the actual permit.
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Old December 4, 2018, 10:27 AM   #8
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Troop362
Can anyone tell me if having a picture of my CCW on my cell phone is the same as having the issued CCW in my possession while carrying my handgun? Some states now recognize having picture of your driver license as being valid.
I'm about 98.xx% certain a question like this came up a couple of years ago on the PAFOA (Pennsylvania Firearms Owners Association) forum and the answer was no. The law reads that you must carry your license, and a judge ruled that a facsimile of the license is not the license.

But ... there are 49 other states ...


Quote:
Originally Posted by FITASC
With more and more electronic ways of doing things (like Apple Pay, etc.), having a photo on your phone of a legitimate photo ID that is clearly readable and current shouldn't be an issue, IMO.
I think just the opposite. More and more state-issued IDs contain a hologram to aid in determining authenticity. A cop can't verify a photo of a hologram.
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Old December 4, 2018, 10:52 AM   #9
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The short answer is No.

The long answer is MAYBE. Think thru the process of showing your permit. You have some interaction with a LEO. He asks to see your permit. All you can produce is a cell phone pic of it.

Does he (the LEO) take that at face value...maybe. He might warn you that the actual permit needs to be carried. He might not accecpt the pic as anything and arrest you. Then you habe to go to court and show proof that you had a permit at the time of the arrest. What a huge PITA, all because you didnt put your permit in your wallet?
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Old December 4, 2018, 11:22 AM   #10
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Pennsylvania:

Quote:
§ 6106. Firearms not to be carried without a license.

(a) Offense defined.--

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (2), any person who carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license under this chapter commits a felony of the third degree.

(2) A person who is otherwise eligible to possess a valid license under this chapter but carries a firearm in any vehicle or any person who carries a firearm concealed on or about his person, except in his place of abode or fixed place of business, without a valid and lawfully issued license and has not committed any other criminal violation commits a misdemeanor of the first degree.
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Old December 4, 2018, 11:58 AM   #11
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It depends on the state. In Arkansas, it looks like that would be OK. I'm not going to be a test case, though.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkansas General Assembly
(a) Any licensee possessing a valid license issued pursuant to this subchapter may carry a concealed handgun.
(b) The licensee shall:
(1) Carry the license, or an electronic copy of the license in an acceptable electronic format, together with valid identification, at any time when the licensee is carrying a concealed handgun; and
(2) Display both the license, or an electronic copy of the license in an acceptable electronic format, and proper identification upon demand by a law enforcement officer.

Ark. Code Ann. § 5-73-315 (West)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkansas State Police
Rule 3.1 Possession of license
The licensee shall carry the concealed handgun carry license, or an electronic
copy in acceptable electronic format, at all times while in possession of a
handgun.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Arkansas General Assembly
As used in this subchapter:
(1) “Acceptable electronic format” means an electronic image produced on the person's own cellular phone or other type of portable electronic device that displays all of the information on a concealed handgun license as clearly as an original concealed handgun license;

Ark. Code Ann. § 5-73-301 (West)
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:13 PM   #12
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Troop362, forgive me if I sound a bit harsh... but as a holder of a concealed carry permit, aren't you supposed to know your state laws on the subject?

As some have indicated, many (most?) state laws require you to have the physical permit on your person anytime you carry concealed. If that is the case in your state, then having a facsimile on your cell phone will not 'cut the mustard', so to speak.

Unless your state statutes say otherwise, carry the darned permit on your person.
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Old December 4, 2018, 12:42 PM   #13
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I've heard about people using digital photos of things such as passports, photo id, insurance cards, etc and those being accepted in situations such as boarding a plane, or showing an officer them when pulled over for a traffic violation.

So I am not surprised to hear someone ask if a photo of a ccw license is acceptable. The volume of inquiries we see here, shouldn't come as a surprise in this day and age that more people rely on others to do their research for them. Reeding be hard!
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Old December 4, 2018, 01:18 PM   #14
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It seems to me that a photo of your license could be "photo-shopped" and not valid.
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Old December 4, 2018, 02:09 PM   #15
USNRet93
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In Colorado from the Boulder County Sheriff(issuer of CCWP),
Quote:
You must carry the actual permit card when carrying concealed, per Colorado State Law.
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Old December 4, 2018, 04:37 PM   #16
FITASC
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While I do not disagree with the majority sentiment, I can see a day in the not-to-distant future where these types of ID may indeed be electronic on some form of smart device. Most current laws were written before the latest explosion in technology, so time will tell if my prediction will come true.
UNTIL THEN, keep your license/permit in your wallet.....
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Old December 4, 2018, 07:24 PM   #17
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
Troop362, forgive me if I sound a bit harsh... but as a holder of a concealed carry permit, aren't you supposed to know your state laws on the subject?
Al, Troop362 is the gentleman who in another discussion mentioned that he currently holds 11 licenses/permits, giving him coverage (he believes) in 46 states. That muddies the waters considerably, because reciprocity/recognition works on the basis of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do." Carrying in State 'E' by virtue of their reciprocal recognition of a permit from State 'C' only authorizes the bearer to abide by State 'E's laws while in State 'E.' Even if State 'C' allows a digital facsimile of the license/permit, I think if the law in State 'E' says that you must carry the actual permit -- it doesn't matter that a digital facsimile is okay in State 'C.'

The uncomfortable reality is that Troop362 needs to be aware of the ins and outs, dos and don'ts for 46 different states. It's just like informing an officer that you're carrying if you get involved in an official interaction. My home state doesn't require notification, but if I'm traveling in a state that does, I have to notify. It doesn't matter that I can keep mum when on home turf.

Consequently, absent an exhaustive list of which states allow digital facsimiles, I think the safest course is to just carry the permits. I only have five, but I keep them in a separate card wallet, away from my cash, driver's license and credit card, in a separate pocket. I carry that wallet all the time, even if I leave the gun at home because I know I'll be going somewhere it's not allowed. (Like the post office.)
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:34 PM   #18
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If you are carrying your gun, and you are most likely carrying your wallet, I recommend carrying your actual permit.
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Old December 4, 2018, 09:55 PM   #19
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Can you pay for something with a picture of cash on your cell phone???

Not, an electronic fund transfer using the phone as connection, but just a picture of cash (like a selfie of you holding a $20 bill) do you think anyone will accept that??

I won't.

Picture of your driver's license on your phone? might work in your state, might not work in another state, where the actual physically issued license would.

Photoshopped? oh yeah. With today tech, how difficult do you think it would be to replace the picture within the picture of the permit with someone else's face??

Used to work at a nuclear facility, security badges required. had a visit from the front office, including DOE bigwigs. They had badges, but didn't wear them open, because they were being filmed by the news. Those of us in the area were required by security to turn our badges around also. The idea was NO PICTURE of the badge. That way counterfeiting a badge was more difficult.

Same idea here, I would think. Any picture of any document COULD be a fake. Phone pic of big brother's DL, he's 23, photo shop little bro's pic into it, he's 17 but same eye, hair color and approximate height/weight, free pass ID go out drinking...

NY state pistol permit, circa 1975, unlaminated paper, photo stapled to the front, thumbprint on the back. State Seal embossed through the picture and the permit paper. Prevented an easy swap of the picture. State driver's license at that time was paper and had no picture or embossing...

Point is, if you don't have the actual issued document ON you, a picture of it on your phone might not cut it, legally.
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Old December 5, 2018, 08:03 AM   #20
FITASC
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Quote:
Not, an electronic fund transfer using the phone as connection, but just a picture of cash (like a selfie of you holding a $20 bill) do you think anyone will accept that??
But you can with a check, or deposit a check via your phone, or use an electronic debit or credit with your phone. Sam's and Costco are implementing ways for you to avoid the long checkout lines by scanning for your items and having a credit/debit deduction done before you leave the store; the person at the door checks your phone like they would the receipt. Private business will lead the way (as usual); and it will take government some time to catch up; but it is coming. With banks and governments wanting to eliminate cash in lieu of electrons, things like ID/permits/licenses won't be far behind.
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Old December 5, 2018, 08:13 AM   #21
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Was pulled over a few months ago and my phone's copy of my auto insurance card satisfied the proof-of-insurance requirement. I take photos of all my ID's and cards (front and back) and have them on my phone. A big part of acceptance is dependent on the LEO.
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Old December 5, 2018, 11:56 AM   #22
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca
Al, Troop362 is the gentleman who in another discussion mentioned that he currently holds 11 licenses/permits, giving him coverage (he believes) in 46 states. That muddies the waters considerably, because reciprocity/recognition works on the basis of "When in Rome, do as the Romans do."
That doesn't muddy any waters that I can see. After-all, we as responsible adults are supposed to know the applicable laws of the states in which we are carrying in (or through). Particularly in the case of having multiple carry permits.

We are not dealing with hypothetical laws here.
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Old December 5, 2018, 07:54 PM   #23
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So you spend money and time to have coverage in every state
Then you want to skimp on proving it

I am sure there is reasoning behind it each choice but connect the dots and ????
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Old December 5, 2018, 08:41 PM   #24
Aguila Blanca
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
That doesn't muddy any waters that I can see. After-all, we as responsible adults are supposed to know the applicable laws of the states in which we are carrying in (or through). Particularly in the case of having multiple carry permits.

We are not dealing with hypothetical laws here.
Maybe "muddy the waters" wasn't the correct term. I was basically pointing out that your post mentioned his home state

Quote:
Originally Posted by Al Norris
... as a holder of a concealed carry permit, aren't you supposed to know your state laws on the subject?
but the OP has 45 other states to keep track of, as well. That can't be easy, especially since the law in any of them could change annually. The easy answer, of course, is to just carry the permits.
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Old December 6, 2018, 04:10 AM   #25
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Digital might be in the future for all of us. This really surprised me this year.

Quote:
The Vikings are one of six NFL teams to take only digital tickets via fans’ smartphones this year, but the rest of the league is expected to switch to all-digital in 2019.
So no more printed tickets for Vikings games. Guess it wouldn't be so far fetched for city/state/feds to start doing it. But like Zukiphile said previously that's a LOT of faith to put in your cell phone battery.
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