The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Conference Center > Law and Civil Rights

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 4, 2018, 11:11 AM   #1
Adrian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2007
Location: Free of California!
Posts: 272
Under financial attack, NRA might "be unable to exist"

The NRA is suing the State of New York for a (so far, meaningfully successful) campaign to cut them off from insurance and other financial services.

From a 2018-07-20 filing in New York court:

Quote:
The foundation of Defendants’ selective-enforcement and retaliation campaign is a series of threats to financial institutions that DFS, an agency created to ensure the integrity of financial markets after the 2008 credit crisis, will exercise its extensive regulatory power against those entities that fail to sever ties with the NRA. To effect their sweeping agenda, Defendants issued public demands that put DFS-regulated institutions on notice to “discontinue[] their arrangements with the NRA” and other “gun promotion organizations” if they planned to do business in New York.

At the same time, Defendants engaged in back-channel communications to reinforce their intended purpose. Simply put, Defendants made it clear to banks and insurers that it is bad business in New York to do business with the NRA.
The implications are clear:

Quote:
The NRA has suffered tens of millions of dollars in damages based on Defendants’ conduct described above. Such damages include, without limitation, damages due to reputational harm, increased development and marketing costs for any potential new NRA-endorsed insurance programs, and lost royalty amounts owed to the NRA, as well as attorneys’ fees, legal expenses, and other costs.

If the NRA is unable to collect donations from its members, safeguard the assets endowed to it, apply its funds to cover media buys and other expenses integral to its political speech, and obtain basic corporate insurance coverage, it will be unable to exist as a not-for-profit or pursue its advocacy mission. Defendants seek to silence one of America’s oldest constitutional rights advocates. If their abuses are not enjoined, they will soon, substantially, succeed.
Original court filing
Rolling Stone coverage and summary

The usual suspects seem to be rejoicing at the idea that the NRA is on its last desperate legs, but I'm pretty sure the organization has quite a bit more fight in it. We've seen this before - money may or may not be speech per se, but regardless of your stance on Citizens United, it does seem to be required for speech these days (at least on the national scale).

That said, when an insurance company says they're unwilling to cover the NRA’s General Liability, Umbrella, and Media Liability coverage at any price (despite the NRA's favorable claims history), you know there are some long knives out in the back rooms.

What do you think?
__________________
NRA Life Member since January 2009
Matt.25:40
Adrian is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 12:14 PM   #2
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,687
The enemies of freedom never sleep and the tactics of attacking us via social media, blackmailing businesses and engaging large groups of useful idiots seem as if they may be working. They can not defeat us in the judiciary or the Federal Legislature, so they have to look for more sneaky sinister ways to accomplish their overall goals. I suspect the majority of Americans most likely support 2A Freedom in theory, but the demonization and shaming of gun owners may make it less and less likely that they will actually support us in these fights.
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 12:15 PM   #3
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,382
If the antis keep this up, the result will be that the NRA will become both a bank and an insurance company.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 01:53 PM   #4
rc
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 28, 2001
Location: CA
Posts: 778
They were also crowing recently about the reduction in youth going into hunting as evidence the gun culture is on the decline. These people have rather simple brains and can't wrap their minds around the fact that gun ownership is growing and the shift it towards weapons for self defense and not hunting as the demographic shift takes people off the farms and fields and concentrates them in the cities where there are not the same opportunities to hunt that once existed in the U.S.
rc is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 04:16 PM   #5
Brian Pfleuger
Moderator Emeritus
 
Join Date: June 25, 2008
Location: Austin, CO
Posts: 19,426
The NRA's history of hyperbole may well come back to bite them, if this happens to be true.

The boy who cried wolf.... the sky is falling... and all that.
__________________
Nobody plans to screw up their lives...
...they just don't plan not to.
-Andy Stanley
Brian Pfleuger is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 04:31 PM   #6
DaleA
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 12, 2002
Location: Twin Cities, MN
Posts: 4,187
Quote:
They were also crowing recently about the reduction in youth going into hunting as evidence the gun culture is on the decline.
I saw that too and appreciate the rest of your post rc.

Also here in Minnesota High School trap shooting is kind of on the up swing and occasionally even gets good press.

https://www.twincities.com/2018/06/1...popular-sport/
DaleA is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 05:06 PM   #7
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,745
I wonder if the courts and/or juries in New York will be less than sympathetic to the NRA?
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 05:22 PM   #8
L2R
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 5, 2010
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 315
Is it me or do the lower courts somewhat follow the supreme court? It seems that over the last few years, the lower courts have viciously been anti-2A. Now, over the last few weeks, some lower courts have given the 2nd A more credit.

I know our current President has been several positions at the lower levels as well but does anyone here think that with a more conservative supreme, the lowers will be more cautious, not wanting their rulings overturned?

Expanding on this post but I am including it here. If the above is true, then maybe NY judges might not be so quick to stick their necks out.
__________________
L2R


Evil cannot be reduced thru Legislation!
L2R is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 06:06 PM   #9
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,732
The NRA is just making the case that they’ve been harmed by this action as clearly as the can. That’s an essential element to the lawsuit. NRA could end up making substantial money off of New York.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 06:34 PM   #10
BarryLee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 29, 2010
Location: The ATL (OTP)
Posts: 3,687
So, is the basis for the suit that the State of NY is using the power & influence of the government to coerce one private businesses not to do business with another private entity? At the very least this seems wrong, but is it illegal?
__________________
A major source of objection to a free economy is precisely that it ... gives people what they want instead of what a particular group thinks they ought to want. Underlying most arguments against the free market is a lack of belief in freedom itself.
- Milton Friedman
BarryLee is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 07:14 PM   #11
Spats McGee
Staff
 
Join Date: July 28, 2010
Location: Arkansas
Posts: 7,724
Quote:
Originally Posted by BarryLee View Post
So, is the basis for the suit that the State of NY is using the power & influence of the government to coerce one private businesses not to do business with another private entity? At the very least this seems wrong, but is it illegal?
I can't speak for other states, but it certainly is in AR. We call it "tortious interference with a contract."
__________________
I'm a lawyer, but I'm not your lawyer. If you need some honest-to-goodness legal advice, go buy some.
Spats McGee is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 07:20 PM   #12
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,382
Banks are only "sort of" private businesses. They need a license, either from a state or from the federal government, in order to operate. The State of New York was essentially threatening banks with revocation or non-renewal of their licenses if they didn't cut off the NRA. I'm not a lawyer, but it seems to me that goes a bit beyond tortious interference. That looks a lot more like blackmail, conspiracy, and deprivation of rights under color of law.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 09:20 PM   #13
Adrian
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 7, 2007
Location: Free of California!
Posts: 272
In another forum, someone pointed out that the last time Cuomo and his Chicago buddy Richard Daley did something like this (suing gunmakers for anything and everything they could think of, back in the early 2000s), we eventually got the Protection in Legal Commerce of Arms Act... but not before we got the Smith & Wesson Lock Hole.

If nothing else, Cuomo's persistent. It'll be interesting to see how it shakes out this time.
__________________
NRA Life Member since January 2009
Matt.25:40
Adrian is offline  
Old August 4, 2018, 09:45 PM   #14
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,516
Sounds like illegal restraint of trade at a minimum and conspiracy to extort restraint of trade at best; basically a form of racketeering, only it won't be called that if a branch of government does it.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old August 5, 2018, 01:12 PM   #15
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 18,967
I don't know about licenses, but certain (unconfirmed) sources have said that certain individuals in the NY government "hinted" at various banks & insurance company's losing their NY business if they didn't drop their business dealings with the NRA.

We don't yet know (and may never know) if there is evidence to support these claims, but if there is, then I think a crime has been committed, and it may take a lawsuit to uncover actionable evidence for criminal prosecution.

On the other hand, NY prosecutors and NY judges do all work for NY state, so...the real truth may never see the light of day in a courtroom...

Too soon to say, just yet...
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old August 5, 2018, 01:41 PM   #16
zxcvbob
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2007
Location: S.E. Minnesota
Posts: 4,396
Wouldn't it have to be federal prosecutors? Maybe under RICO...
__________________
"The only way to stop a bad guy with a gun is with a good guy with a gun"
zxcvbob is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 09:17 AM   #17
adamBomb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2015
Location: coastal NC
Posts: 593
This is what bad karma gets you.

NRA and republicans were jumping for joy when Georgia was blocking legislation on Delta Airlines simply because they didn't want to be involved in the NRAs politics (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...g-airline.html)

Now the NRA is up in arms that the left is doing similar things? Give me a break. Reap what you sew.

America's whole political climate right now is its only bad if its the other side. It was OK when it was delta but now its not ok when the tide has turned?
adamBomb is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 03:15 PM   #18
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,908
Quote:
This is what bad karma gets you.

NRA and republicans were jumping for joy when Georgia was blocking legislation on Delta Airlines simply because they didn't want to be involved in the NRAs politics (http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2018...g-airline.html)

Now the NRA is up in arms that the left is doing similar things? Give me a break. Reap what you sew.

America's whole political climate right now is its only bad if its the other side. It was OK when it was delta but now its not ok when the tide has turned?
That is a fair example of what I frequently say... it is ok as long as my side is doing it but not ok for your side to do it. I personally believed the GA legislature was being hyper-political and should not have even debated that action, but that's just my opinion.

But... that's not exactly an apples to apples comparison. Georgia was considering ending a tax break to Delta over it pulling out from the NRA. It has been suggested that New York is threatening to pull state business licenses from any company that does business with the NRA. The NRA has to have a banking institution. New York is trying to tell any bank that they better not serve NRA or they will "not do business in New York anymore." There is a great deal of difference. Georgia was threatening to end tax breaks. New York was threatening to yank a private organization's business license if they do business with another private organization. The exact definition for fascism is elusive, but almost all attempts would include this action as fascist.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 03:35 PM   #19
Glenn E. Meyer
Staff
 
Join Date: November 17, 2000
Posts: 19,745
Is there a NYS state code for pulling licenses? Or is it an executive decision?

An executive can decide whom he or she wants to do business with, I might think. Arbitrarily banning someone is different. Suggesting you don't do business is another.

We need more legal opinion.
__________________
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
Glenn E. Meyer is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 03:54 PM   #20
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,908
Quote:
Is there a NYS state code for pulling licenses? Or is it an executive decision?

An executive can decide whom he or she wants to do business with, I might think. Arbitrarily banning someone is different. Suggesting you don't do business is another.

We need more legal opinion.
Agreed. Regardless of technical legality it is still a government entity strong arming one private organization to sever any business ties to another private organization because they don't like them exercising their first amendment rights to advocate for the 2nd amendment right.

I doubt any consequence would come of it if New York threatened to end tax breaks to businesses associated with the NRA. Tax breaks are given arbitrarily anyway. Business licenses usually are not.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 05:30 PM   #21
Aguila Blanca
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 25, 2008
Location: CONUS
Posts: 11,382
I would say the same principle underlies both the Georgia/Delta situation and the New York bank situation, but reversed. With Georgia and Delta, the state was basically telling a private company that if they want help from the [state] government, they can't play politics. With New York and the banks, the state was telling the banks that if they want to do business with the [state] government, they must play politics.
Aguila Blanca is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 07:22 PM   #22
Bartholomew Roberts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 12, 2000
Location: Texas and Oklahoma area
Posts: 7,732
Quote:
With New York and the banks, the state was telling the banks that if they want to do business with the [state] government, they must play politics.
It is actually worse than that based on the NRA’s lawsuit. NRA is alleging the state is using its regulatory powers and NYC’s status as a financial capital to tell banks they cannot do business in NY at all if they have the NRA as a client - not woth the state, nor with any other private bank; because they won’t meet the regulatory scrutiny NY will give them.

And Cuomo is strutting around saying things that must make the law firms defending against this sweat blood.
Bartholomew Roberts is offline  
Old August 6, 2018, 09:32 PM   #23
5whiskey
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 23, 2005
Location: US
Posts: 2,908
And another aspect of the Georgia/Delta situation... Delta did not even have a fuel tax credit at the time. It had expired in 2015, and the issue in 2018 was that many legislatures proposed bringing delta's tax credits back until they cut ties with NRA. So Delta didn't even have the tax credit taken away... Georgia just chose not to give a tax credit that the legislature had previously proposed.

This as opposed to new York state is in a lawsuit for trying to meddle in how private organizations conduct business with other private organizations by threatening to bar it from doing business in the state of they don't bend to the state government whims. And NRA is insinuating that they have standing and have already suffered harm from this. So it is similar to georgia, but way worse. One action is in poor taste, one is much worse.
__________________
Support the NRA-ILA Auction, ends 03/09/2018

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=593946
5whiskey is offline  
Old August 7, 2018, 09:08 AM   #24
Unclenick
Staff
 
Join Date: March 4, 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 15,516
Quote:
Originally Posted by adamBomb
Now the NRA is up in arms that the left is doing similar things? Give me a break. Reap what you sew.
I don't see it as equivalent. Sure, both are applying economic pressure, but in the Georgia example, the governor is saying Delta gets no more special treatment. In the New York example, the governor is saying the NRA gets no more normal treatment. This is why the latter can be construed as illegal discrimination, while the former cannot.
__________________
Gunsite Orange Hat Family Member
CMP Certified GSM Master Instructor
NRA Certified Rifle Instructor
NRA Benefactor Member and Golden Eagle
Unclenick is offline  
Old August 8, 2018, 07:30 AM   #25
adamBomb
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 19, 2015
Location: coastal NC
Posts: 593
Quote:
“I will kill any tax legislation that benefits @Delta unless the company changes its position and fully reinstates its relationship with @NRA,” Cagle tweeted. “Corporations cannot attack conservatives and expect us not to fight back.” - lt gov GA.
Quote:
New York Lt. Gov. Kathy Hochul noted that New York “is open for business” and suggested that the airline should move its headquarters to “where you’re appreciated.”
You see, they started a war. The gov should of NEVER been involved in this...at least not publicly. Opened this up to a whole new ball game. While yes two different things...same idea and same mindset. Its a whole new world. The NRA should of been against the actions by GA lawmakers but they applauded it. Now lawmakers in other states, which they apparently desperately need, are sticking it to them. The end result of this is not pretty. I did not support the actions in GA and I do not support them in NY. But the actions in GA opened the gates for reactions like this.
adamBomb is offline  
Reply

Tags
finance , new york , nra

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 03:49 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2019, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.11821 seconds with 8 queries