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Old September 30, 2018, 04:44 PM   #1
Prof Young
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What happens when you fail the NICS?

Previous post has me wondering what it means to fail the NCIS? Has one broken a law by failing the NICS or does it just mean the ATF now has legal cause to investigate that person if they want to? I used to think it just meant you didn't get a firearms. What else does it mean?


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Old September 30, 2018, 06:27 PM   #2
dogtown tom
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Prof Young Previous post has me wondering what it means to fail the NCIS?
NCIS is a TV show.
NICS checks that result in a "Denied" response means that the FBI found information in your records that disqualifies you from acquiring a firearm. When that happens you can request an appeal and may be asked to provide additional documents or fingerprints.

Quote:
Has one broken a law by failing the NICS
No.
If you lied on your Form 4473 that you complete before the NICS check....that IS felony.



Quote:
or does it just mean the ATF now has legal cause to investigate that person if they want to?
If the buyer is not a prohibited person, is denied by NICS....there is no crime.
If the buyer IS a prohibited person, is denied by NICS.....well, they lied on their 4473, so ATF could investigate for falsifying the 4473. (but they rarely do)



Quote:
I used to think it just meant you didn't get a firearms. What else does it mean?
It means what it means. When NICS ran your information there were records disqualifying you from acquiring a firearm. It could be a name match with a felon, immigration status, old court case with missing disposition or even a pending DWI.
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Old September 30, 2018, 07:04 PM   #3
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Stay the course

Quote:
It means what it means. When NICS ran your information there were records disqualifying you from acquiring a firearm. It could be a name match with a felon, immigration status, old court case with missing disposition or even a pending DWI.
A friend of mine was denied at a gun-show and he was really surprised as no reason was given. Three days later, he was accepted and again, no reason was given on his first attempt.

I like the Iowa system that issues you a Pistol buying permit after a waiting period of 3-days and $5.00 which is good for year. On a carry permit, there are a variety of ways to go with this but if you pass the background check you will get your permit on no more than 30-days and a fee. ….


If for whatever reason you are denied, they are obligated to tell you why and then perhaps you can take steps to clear the problem. ….

Be Safe !!!
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Old October 1, 2018, 10:17 PM   #4
Prof Young
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The reason I asked . . .

The reason I asked is this article:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...es/1351115002/

This article makes it seem like it's a big deal that those who fail the NICS are not being investigated.

Apparently writer of this piece is out of touch with the reality.

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Old October 2, 2018, 07:17 PM   #5
dogtown tom
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Quote:
Prof Young The reason I asked is this article:

https://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...es/1351115002/

This article makes it seem like it's a big deal that those who fail the NICS are not being investigated.
That's not what that article says at all.
Eric Pratt is pointing out the fact that the overwhelming majority of NICS denials are not for criminals.

Quote:
Apparently writer of this piece is out of touch with the reality.
Nope.

Did you read anything I wrote above?
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Old October 3, 2018, 02:07 PM   #6
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Good Points Dogtown . . . .

Dogtown you make good points.

This quote from the Pratt article -

"ATF agents did not consider most of the prohibited persons who had obtained guns to be dangerous."Those words, quoted last year by USA TODAY, explain why the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and local governments are not prosecuting most gun buyers who get denied by FBI background checks.

- is why I'm wondering about the status of those denied. Could they be prosecuted if the Feds wanted too? I would assume the prosecution would have to be based on the reason for the failure BUT that reason would already be known by law enforcement or they would not have failed the back ground check so . . . could one be prosecuted for applying for gun ownership while knowing that they are prohibited?

I know a boatload of gun rights advocates are anti-background check. I'm not ready to jump on that boat yet. Feel free to try to convince me. That's how we all learn.

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Old October 3, 2018, 02:55 PM   #7
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I like the Iowa system that issues you a Pistol buying permit after a waiting period of 3-days and $5.00 which is good for year.
Interesting.

The "Minnesota system" issues you a 'permit to purchase' after a waiting period of about two weeks which is free and is good for a year.

Then, of course, Minnesota gun dealers run the NICS on you anyway. Note: the 'permit to purchase' is also needed to buy any 'scary' rifles, even if the scary rifle is .22 rimfire.
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Old October 3, 2018, 06:19 PM   #8
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Quote:
Prof Young Dogtown you make good points.

This quote from the Pratt article -

"ATF agents did not consider most of the prohibited persons who had obtained guns to be dangerous."Those words, quoted last year by USA TODAY, explain why the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives and local governments are not prosecuting most gun buyers who get denied by FBI background checks.

- is why I'm wondering about the status of those denied. Could they be prosecuted if the Feds wanted too?
Again, a denied response is not a crime. Buyers can be denied for any number of reasons. It could be a name match with a felon or prohibited person, immigration status, old court case with missing disposition or even a pending DWI.


Quote:
I would assume the prosecution would have to be based on the reason for the failure BUT that reason would already be known by law enforcement or they would not have failed the back ground check so . . .
You are under the faulty assumption that only criminals are denied. I get about one denied transaction a year. In the last ten years all but one was overturned after an appeal. The other chose to not appeal his denial.


Quote:
could one be prosecuted for applying for gun ownership while knowing that they are prohibited?
Yes.


Quote:
I know a boatload of gun rights advocates are anti-background check. I'm not ready to jump on that boat yet. Feel free to try to convince me. That's how we all learn.
Background checks just means the criminals will have someone else buy their guns. It's more of a burden on the law abiding.

But the NICS is faaaaaar better than the system it replaced, which required a waiting period before you could get your gun.
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Old October 4, 2018, 12:03 AM   #9
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Quote:
- is why I'm wondering about the status of those denied. Could they be prosecuted if the Feds wanted too?
Not automatically, first there would have to be an investigation.

Quote:
I would assume the prosecution would have to be based on the reason for the failure BUT that reason would already be known by law enforcement or they would not have failed the back ground check
Not necessarily. There are, essentially two separate "systems" involved, and you are assuming they both know what the other knows, and "talk" to each other, and that is a false assumption.

There is the 4473 form with its questions and there is the NICS system, the "instant check". The phone check only knows what the dealer tells them, wich is to identify you, and whether you are buying a long gun, or a handgun. That's it. The instant check system has no idea what you wrote as answers on the 4473. It only knows what your records are, if any, in the system. Anything in the computer system that gets you a delayed or denied, has nothing to do with what you wrote on the 4473 other than your ID and address.

Quote:
so . . . could one be prosecuted for applying for gun ownership while knowing that they are prohibited?
Ok, now in this case, tis yes, because lying on the 4473 is a crime, and a prosecutable offense. (they rarely DO it, but it is a crime).

If you didn't lie on the 4473 form and the instant check system downchecks you, then its a system issue, not a crime. If you did lie on the 4473 and the instant check denies you (as it should, if its working correctly) its a crime because you lied on the 4473, not because the instant check denied you.

Clear as mud??

One friend of mine kept getting "delayed". Never denied, but delayed. Turned out, it was because he held a govt security clearance. Not for a bad reason, but because of his clearance, his file was "flagged" which meant that the regular system operator had to get a supervisor to open the file, so they could see why it was flagged. This resulted in a delayed response until they saw why his file was flagged, after which approval always happened. Barking stupid bureaucratic system, but that's what it was. He "fixed" that problem by getting the UPIN from them, and since then, no delays.

The quote from the ATF about them not going after most of the denied people, because they "aren't dangerous" is true, but a bit misleading. The reason they feel most "aren't dangerous" is because they know that most denials are the system screwing up, denying people who aren't prohibited.
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Old October 4, 2018, 06:04 PM   #10
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Quote:
44 AMP …..The instant check system has no idea what you wrote as answers on the 4473. It only knows what your records are, if any, in the system. Anything in the computer system that gets you a delayed or denied, has nothing to do with what you wrote on the 4473 other than your ID and address. .....
Well, the dealer will report a bit more than ID and address to NICS:
Name
Address
Birthplace
Height
Weight
Sex
Birthdate
SSN
UPIN
Ethnicity
Race
Country of citizenship



Quote:
One friend of mine kept getting "delayed". Never denied, but delayed. Turned out, it was because he held a govt security clearance. Not for a bad reason, but because of his clearance, his file was "flagged" which meant that the regular system operator had to get a supervisor to open the file, so they could see why it was flagged. This resulted in a delayed response until they saw why his file was flagged, after which approval always happened. Barking stupid bureaucratic system, but that's what it was. He "fixed" that problem by getting the UPIN from them, and since then, no delays.
100% myth.

First, FBI NICS will not tell the dealer or the buyer the reason for a "delay".
Second, "security clearances" do not "flag" anyone.....and why would they?
Third, your friend gave permission to the FBI to open a Voluntary Appeal File. The VAF allows the FBI to retain the buyers information that would normally be deleted when his transaction is approved. They provide the Unique Personal Identification Number that the buyer uses when completing the Form 4473.


From the FBI:
Quote:
A "Delayed" message from the NICS indicates the subject of a NICS background check has been matched with a similar name and similar descriptive information associated with a record containing a potential state or federal firearm prohibition. The NICS Section must obtain additional information before making a final determination of a Proceed or Denied for the firearm transfer. The NICS Section is afforded three business days in which to conduct this research. If the NICS Section is unable to provide either a Proceed or Denied response to the Federal Firearms Licensee within three business days, the Brady Handgun Violence Prevention Act of 1993 does not prohibit the Federal Firearms Licensee, or FFL, from transferring the firearm; however, the FFL is not required to do so.
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Old October 11, 2018, 09:31 AM   #11
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If you fail a NIC's check the local police are supposed to be notified - I do not recall how that works but I assume it's just a faxed form. Occasionally people do get arrested after the fact where I live; it sometimes makes papers. Actually I remember one instance they arrested them before they even left the store (assume that was a state-run/pistol check, so the state police just notified the locals).

Where I live it's a misdemeanor to lie on the form, not a very serious crime to begin with (talking state law, no idea about fed law).. local police are very subject to local norms and in order to do anything they would need to look at the notification, actually prove the person lied (which possibly is not true or provable easily), get a warrant, make an arrest - then prosecute a victimless misdemeanor, which is all work for them on top of everything else they are tasked with (like investigating crimes with victims involved)..

Soooo most of the time even when someone has clearly lied on the form, at least where I live, I don't think it goes anywhere.
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Old October 11, 2018, 10:41 AM   #12
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"Where I live it's a misdemeanor to lie on the form, not a very serious crime to begin with (talking state law, no idea about fed law)."

Actually, near the top of the second page on form 4473, it states that it is a federal felony to lie on that form. The actual language on the form is this:

"I also understand that making any false oral or written statement, or exhibiting any false or misrepresented identification with respect to this transaction, is a crime punishable as a felony under Federal law, and may also violate State and/or local law."

Last edited by cjwils; October 11, 2018 at 10:49 AM.
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Old October 11, 2018, 10:41 AM   #13
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Why would a state law make it a misdemeanor to lie on a federal form when it's already a federal felony to lie on the form?
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Old October 11, 2018, 04:15 PM   #14
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My step-brother spent several months locked up because he lied on a 4473 (he blamed it on dyslexia but nobody believes him). He has always been a gun nut and bought, sold and pawned guns for years. He went to get a pawned gun back from the pawn shop when he discovered that they now require a 4473 to get your gun out of hock. He said he had not been convicted of a felony when he had actually pleaded guilty to a "minor" felony regarding a bad check. He keeps saying he is going to get his gun rights back but he is dreaming as he has had other charges for other "minor" things since then.
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Old October 13, 2018, 05:42 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca View Post
Why would a state law make it a misdemeanor to lie on a federal form when it's already a federal felony to lie on the form?
Not just "why," but "how?" State law has no power to do that. (I write this for the benefit of other readers, AB, as I'm sure you knew that.)

Quote:
Originally Posted by riffraff View Post
. . . . Where I live it's a misdemeanor to lie on the form, not a very serious crime to begin with (talking state law, no idea about fed law)....
Is there some state form that has to be filled out for transfers in your state?
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Old October 13, 2018, 12:28 PM   #16
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Is there some state form that has to be filled out for transfers in your state?
Washington state has its own form that has to be filled out when purchasing a handgun. SO, two forms, the Fed 4473 and the WA state form.

WA does not require this when buying a long gun. SO, rifle or shotgun, all you fill out is the Fed 4473. Handgun, the Fed and the State form must both be completed.

Fed felony to lie on the Fed form. State crime (misdemeanor, apparently) to lie on the State form. Or so it seems.
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Old October 13, 2018, 05:47 PM   #17
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Where I live the police will pick you up before you leave the store and it is you who has to sort it out
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Old October 14, 2018, 10:57 AM   #18
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Dano4734, where is that?
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Old November 4, 2018, 01:29 AM   #19
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
First, FBI NICS will not tell the dealer or the buyer the reason for a "delay".
Second, "security clearances" do not "flag" anyone.....and why would they?
Third, your friend gave permission to the FBI to open a Voluntary Appeal File. The VAF allows the FBI to retain the buyers information that would normally be deleted when his transaction is approved. They provide the Unique Personal Identification Number that the buyer uses when completing the Form 4473.
This is exactly what happened to me. Service member with a TS/SCI; squeaky clean record. Moved from Kansas to Texas; denied on NICS attempting to buy a handgun. The FBI would never tell me why I was denied, but I eventually had a gun store owner from back in Kansas say they had an employee arrested for identify theft. My only inclination is that said employee tried to use my SSN for a gun purchase or gave it to someone to try. Simply speculation on my part with the info I had. Regardless, I had to go through the VAF process and now I have UPIN and use it on the 4473.

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Old November 4, 2018, 06:19 PM   #20
dogtown tom
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Quote:
ROCK6 Quote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by dogtown tom
First, FBI NICS will not tell the dealer or the buyer the reason for a "delay".
Second, "security clearances" do not "flag" anyone.....and why would they?
Third, your friend gave permission to the FBI to open a Voluntary Appeal File. The VAF allows the FBI to retain the buyers information that would normally be deleted when his transaction is approved. They provide the Unique Personal Identification Number that the buyer uses when completing the Form 4473.
This is exactly what happened to me. Service member with a TS/SCI; squeaky clean record. Moved from Kansas to Texas; denied on NICS attempting to buy a handgun. The FBI would never tell me why I was denied,
Federal law REQUIRES the FBI to give you the reason for your denial.
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Old November 4, 2018, 06:33 PM   #21
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But the NICS is faaaaaar better than the system it replaced, which required a waiting period before you could get your gun.
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Some states STILL have a waiting period; Florida does for both handguns and now rifles of three days, with two exceptions - a CWFL allows immediate possession of either a handgun or long gun; a hunter Ed cert allows immediate possession of a long gun.
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Old November 7, 2018, 09:44 AM   #22
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I like the Iowa system that issues you a Pistol buying permit after a waiting period of 3-days and $5.00 which is good for year. On a carry permit, there are a variety of ways to go with this but if you pass the background check you will get your permit on no more than 30-days and a fee. ….
You like this system? You have to pay to exercise a constitutionally-protected right?
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