Caught the problem but what would have happened if I didnt?

Ub3rn00ber · August 8, 2016, 12:20 AM

Luckily I keep a close eye on everything while I'm loading or I might have missed this.

One of my presses is a LnL with an auto case feeder, I only put a few handfuls of brass in at a time, and keep the rest in a bag next to my bench. I had some primers spill and didn't think much of it picked what I though was all of them up, I didn't count the 20 primers that spilled (doh!). About an hour later I saw a weird shimmer in my case. this was in stage one of my second time in the press.
First I decap, size, and expand, then I re rotary tumble to clean pockets. Then I go back and prime powder ect. So if I wasn't watching I could have left it in easily.
I stopped what I was doing took it out and counted the 2 rows from the box that fell out, 19.... luckily I found the 1 missing primer in the bottom of the bag, and since I look at every one I know nothing happened.

This makes me wonder, what if I hadent caught it? If there was a primer inside the case with my powder? I'm guessing it could nick the groves maybe. It was 9mm and the rounds have already been expended. This happened about 3 months ago

HiBC · August 8, 2016, 05:08 AM

You caught it.Moot point.I suggest you be more selective with worry.

dahermit · August 8, 2016, 06:14 AM

Quote:

If there was a primer inside the case with my powder? I'm guessing it could nick the groves maybe.

All the metal in a primer is Brass, some with a Nickel plating. Your barrel's lands and grooves are steel...much harder than brass. Therefore, it is not likely that a primer being propelled down the barrel could hurt anything, even if were to be propelled at the velocity anywhere near what the bullet would be (depending upon where in the powder charge it was located when fired).

Mike38 · August 8, 2016, 06:45 AM

Does primer compound ignite from heat as well as impact? Could the primer in the case have gone off with the powder and created a higher pressure situation? I don't know.

45_auto · August 8, 2016, 07:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ub3rn00ber

This makes me wonder, what if I hadent caught it?

You would never have noticed any difference.

griz · August 8, 2016, 07:51 AM

Do you mean the primer went through the powder measure? If so I would worry more about it being ignited in the measure. That would have been VERY noticeable.

DaleA · August 8, 2016, 02:55 PM

I'll play. It's an interesting question.

As I read the opening post the primers were dropped into a bag of cases. The primer did NOT go through the powder measure.

I would think the primer would go off. This would cause some extra pressure but I don't think enough extra pressure to matter.

I would wonder if the burnt up primer would exit the barrel? Heck, I'd wonder if it would exit the case? But not enough to try it myself.

Good catch on finding the problem.

KEYBEAR · August 8, 2016, 04:23 PM

Loading Shotgun shells I would find stuff in hulls all the time rocks pull tabs off cans dimes and stuff . A Dime will stop a press quick ( Really hard to deprime )

briandg · August 8, 2016, 04:54 PM

The explosive mix in the primer would amount to a fart in a windstorm when the powder set it off. the bullet would probably already be underway, broken out of the shell and onto forcing cone. What would that amount to? your powder would be really, really well ignited, but NOT pushed any farther on the way through the burn process. Will it blow out of the barrel? The primer would be probably half way up the cartridge case, who knows, but when the powder goes off, that entire case, every last corner of that case will be loaded with hot gasses at 20K psi. Even if that thing was at the absolute far end of the case, it will either be blown out by the final tiny bit of escaping gas, or ejected with the empty case, or rotated out of the way with the cylinder. The probability that the primer will wind up in the barrel is pretty near zero, I believe. If it was in the barrel, two things would happen. either the rush of air that precedes the bullet will push it out, or the bullet will push it out. Unless you are using a very slow sloped bullet and have a rough or dirty bore, the primer would not catch and be dragged, and possibly caught and crammed into the bore. What if the primer is actually caught and jammed into the bullet? Heck if I know, that's got a lot of questions. BRaass, copper, lead, they're all pretty soft, the primer will probably flatten into the bullet and only raise pressure minimally. If you're running +p+ range loads, pressing the abxolute limits, Jamming a bit of brass on the way out will probably not create an over pressure situation that would be harmful.

I thought this thing through, beginning to end, and these are the conclusions I've come to, unless you have an absolutely uncanny run of bad coincidence, it should fail to even matter. If you have a once in a lifetime event that the thing makes it into a cartridge, follows that exact sequence of events, Well, even if you're pressing pressure limits, it still has to be in a gun that cant withstand the extra pressure that would occur if the worst case scenario should occur.

You only had step one of a dozen or more steps happen, and every one of them would have to happen for a kaboom to happen. Boy, that was fun.

snakeye · August 8, 2016, 09:18 PM

briandg

Does your brain hurt after thinking all of that out

briandg · August 8, 2016, 10:06 PM

sometimes.

windows gives me bigger headaches. twenty years ago I was known as the window wizard at my college. Now, god help me, just getting an antivirus set up is my wife's job.

DaleA · August 9, 2016, 12:38 AM

If you have a headache after all that analysis I think we owe you a cold one for taking one for the team and giving it some CONSIDERED thought.

If you're ever in MN stop by and I'll pay up.

briandg · August 9, 2016, 03:11 AM

wow, you're a pretty nice guy. I tend to get a lot of butt kicking.

Otoh, I spend a huge amount of time compiling and passing on information on a cigar lover's sitel. A whole lot of time goes into these things.

Then there are the three or four page comic satire posts that I write, an ongoing satire called "the chronicles of Oog."

Oog is a genetically modified human who was caught in a lab accident and turned into a neanderthal/human hybtid. he foolishly was working on a dig in rance in the neander valley, came home with a fragment of tail bone stuck in his shoes, and went through the genetic splicing machine by accident while trying to splice pigs and cattle, in a program called ""operation bacon cheeseburger."

mikld · August 9, 2016, 11:23 AM

Jes a thought; primers are powerful, but in the conditions they are normally used. Normally a primer is confined in a cavity and supported fore and aft (bolt face and primer pocket). When ignited all the hot gasses and pressure is directed through a small hole and directed into the powder. I don't think much would happen if the primer were ignited by the burning powder, unconfined, in an expanding cavity (bullet traveling down the barrel).

August 8, 2016, 12:20 AM	#1
Ub3rn00ber Member Join Date: March 9, 2009 Posts: 70	Caught the problem but what would have happened if I didnt? Luckily I keep a close eye on everything while I'm loading or I might have missed this. One of my presses is a LnL with an auto case feeder, I only put a few handfuls of brass in at a time, and keep the rest in a bag next to my bench. I had some primers spill and didn't think much of it picked what I though was all of them up, I didn't count the 20 primers that spilled (doh!). About an hour later I saw a weird shimmer in my case. this was in stage one of my second time in the press. First I decap, size, and expand, then I re rotary tumble to clean pockets. Then I go back and prime powder ect. So if I wasn't watching I could have left it in easily. I stopped what I was doing took it out and counted the 2 rows from the box that fell out, 19.... luckily I found the 1 missing primer in the bottom of the bag, and since I look at every one I know nothing happened. This makes me wonder, what if I hadent caught it? If there was a primer inside the case with my powder? I'm guessing it could nick the groves maybe. It was 9mm and the rounds have already been expended. This happened about 3 months ago

August 8, 2016, 04:54 PM	#9
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	The explosive mix in the primer would amount to a fart in a windstorm when the powder set it off. the bullet would probably already be underway, broken out of the shell and onto forcing cone. What would that amount to? your powder would be really, really well ignited, but NOT pushed any farther on the way through the burn process. Will it blow out of the barrel? The primer would be probably half way up the cartridge case, who knows, but when the powder goes off, that entire case, every last corner of that case will be loaded with hot gasses at 20K psi. Even if that thing was at the absolute far end of the case, it will either be blown out by the final tiny bit of escaping gas, or ejected with the empty case, or rotated out of the way with the cylinder. The probability that the primer will wind up in the barrel is pretty near zero, I believe. If it was in the barrel, two things would happen. either the rush of air that precedes the bullet will push it out, or the bullet will push it out. Unless you are using a very slow sloped bullet and have a rough or dirty bore, the primer would not catch and be dragged, and possibly caught and crammed into the bore. What if the primer is actually caught and jammed into the bullet? Heck if I know, that's got a lot of questions. BRaass, copper, lead, they're all pretty soft, the primer will probably flatten into the bullet and only raise pressure minimally. If you're running +p+ range loads, pressing the abxolute limits, Jamming a bit of brass on the way out will probably not create an over pressure situation that would be harmful. I thought this thing through, beginning to end, and these are the conclusions I've come to, unless you have an absolutely uncanny run of bad coincidence, it should fail to even matter. If you have a once in a lifetime event that the thing makes it into a cartridge, follows that exact sequence of events, Well, even if you're pressing pressure limits, it still has to be in a gun that cant withstand the extra pressure that would occur if the worst case scenario should occur. You only had step one of a dozen or more steps happen, and every one of them would have to happen for a kaboom to happen. Boy, that was fun. __________________ None.

August 8, 2016, 10:06 PM	#11
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	sometimes. windows gives me bigger headaches. twenty years ago I was known as the window wizard at my college. Now, god help me, just getting an antivirus set up is my wife's job. __________________ None.

August 9, 2016, 03:11 AM	#13
briandg Senior Member Join Date: May 4, 2010 Posts: 5,468	wow, you're a pretty nice guy. I tend to get a lot of butt kicking. Otoh, I spend a huge amount of time compiling and passing on information on a cigar lover's sitel. A whole lot of time goes into these things. Then there are the three or four page comic satire posts that I write, an ongoing satire called "the chronicles of Oog." Oog is a genetically modified human who was caught in a lab accident and turned into a neanderthal/human hybtid. he foolishly was working on a dig in rance in the neander valley, came home with a fragment of tail bone stuck in his shoes, and went through the genetic splicing machine by accident while trying to splice pigs and cattle, in a program called ""operation bacon cheeseburger." __________________ None.

August 9, 2016, 11:23 AM	#14
mikld Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2009 Location: Southern Oregon! Posts: 2,891	Jes a thought; primers are powerful, but in the conditions they are normally used. Normally a primer is confined in a cavity and supported fore and aft (bolt face and primer pocket). When ignited all the hot gasses and pressure is directed through a small hole and directed into the powder. I don't think much would happen if the primer were ignited by the burning powder, unconfined, in an expanding cavity (bullet traveling down the barrel). __________________ My Anchor is holding fast! I've learned how to stand on my own two knees...

August 8, 2016, 05:08 AM	#2
HiBC Senior Member Join Date: November 13, 2006 Posts: 8,288	You caught it.Moot point.I suggest you be more selective with worry.

August 8, 2016, 06:45 AM	#4
Mike38 Senior Member Join Date: December 28, 2009 Location: North Central Illinois Posts: 2,710	Does primer compound ignite from heat as well as impact? Could the primer in the case have gone off with the powder and created a higher pressure situation? I don't know.

August 8, 2016, 07:51 AM	#6
griz Senior Member Join Date: July 31, 2000 Location: Middle Peninsula, VA Posts: 1,588	Do you mean the primer went through the powder measure? If so I would worry more about it being ignited in the measure. That would have been VERY noticeable.

August 8, 2016, 02:55 PM	#7
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	I'll play. It's an interesting question. As I read the opening post the primers were dropped into a bag of cases. The primer did NOT go through the powder measure. I would think the primer would go off. This would cause some extra pressure but I don't think enough extra pressure to matter. I would wonder if the burnt up primer would exit the barrel? Heck, I'd wonder if it would exit the case? But not enough to try it myself. Good catch on finding the problem.

August 8, 2016, 04:23 PM	#8
KEYBEAR Senior Member Join Date: January 11, 2012 Location: Indiana Posts: 1,059	Loading Shotgun shells I would find stuff in hulls all the time rocks pull tabs off cans dimes and stuff . A Dime will stop a press quick ( Really hard to deprime )

August 8, 2016, 09:18 PM	#10
snakeye Senior Member Join Date: July 5, 2013 Location: Arlington, TX Posts: 127	briandg Does your brain hurt after thinking all of that out

August 9, 2016, 12:38 AM	#12
DaleA Senior Member Join Date: September 12, 2002 Location: Twin Cities, MN Posts: 5,313	If you have a headache after all that analysis I think we owe you a cold one for taking one for the team and giving it some CONSIDERED thought. If you're ever in MN stop by and I'll pay up.