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February 19, 2017, 08:39 PM | #76 |
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February 19, 2017, 08:42 PM | #77 | |
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February 20, 2017, 02:59 AM | #78 | |
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That's true no Mark 1 was made by FN. Ruger never made a Mark 1 .22 either. But nevertheless there is a Mark 2 and 3.
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On the Inglis. Folks can read some on it here... http://www.ai4fr.com/main/page_milit...da_inglis.html Clone or not it was a legitimate version of the Hi-Power made from prints taken from the FN plant and with Saive's co-operation. tipoc Last edited by tipoc; February 20, 2017 at 03:30 AM. |
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February 20, 2017, 07:41 AM | #79 | |
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For me the BHP sort of like the 1911 during thr 70's and 80s. The guns straight for the factory, whose days for 1911 basically Colt, were good but not great. In order to unlock the potential of the gun you have to know how to improve it yourself or you have to send it to a smith. In the 1911 world people like Kimber changed the game. They created a production gun with all the features of a Colt + custom work and sold it for a reasonable enough price that people choose it vs the Colt + smith route. They used economy of scale, MIM parts and modern production techniques to improve their production gun and the 1911 marketplace changed forever. This has never happened with the BHP. People like FEG, Charles Daly & FM all tried to produce clones with limited success. None of them produced a clone which incorporated the updates people desired. Charles Daly with the use of FEG frames, XD big dot sights, Spegel designed grips and extended safety was the closet to an improved production clone but the triggers still fell short. They were also undermined when they move production to Magnum Research, Inc. IIRC This makes the BHP very expensive. Base gun + custom smith = Expensive. More modern guns like the Glock 19, Sig P320, even 1911s are getting the same thing done for less money and effort. That is why the BHP is still sort of a niche gun. IMHO As for the Inglis it is the definition of a license clone. I am not going to go over every detail but the article you linked to like so many articles on the BHP and its variants is somewhat flawed and inaccurate. For example JMB was not an employee of FN. He was a contracted designer for FN. Saive was not his assistant. Saive was the head of design at FN Herstal. IIRC the Inglis were produced by tracing existing pistols and with Saive who by memory filled in the gaps. They did not get the blue prints from the FN plant in Herstal.
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February 20, 2017, 09:43 AM | #80 | ||
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February 20, 2017, 12:25 PM | #81 |
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My bad on the Mark 1 Ruger. Sometimes when I write quickly I can get the secondary details wrong. That's what happens when one nit picks on a minor point.
Canada still uses the Hi-Power. The UK began to replace it as a service sidearm about 2-3 years ago for the Glock. http://www.guns.com/2017/01/13/canad...th-new-pistol/ I think my self and others adequately explained why the BHP while popular in the U.S. was never quite as popular as other designs. Walt S summarized these well a few posts back. It was not the trigger that held it back. Charles Daly, the firearms importer, found that they were losing money on their version of the gun, not because they were not selling or because there was no market for them but because of the cost of production of the guns vs. the return on the investment. They produced their fine version of the gun from about 2003-2006 or a year or so later. The guns were well received. The profit margin however was too low to sustain them and Daly itself was having trouble. These guns were selling for less than $400. in the mid 2000s. Daly did not produce the gun itself. It was made from parts bought from FEG and assembled in the U.S. the first several hundred were built by Dan Wesson (before it became a part of CZ). But Wesson was in financial trouble and was bought by CZ in 2005 or so as I recall. Daly contracted with Magnum Research to do the guns. Daly had also been bought out by Michael Kassner of KBI international. About this time, 2010, the Hungarian firm FEG which had been having difficulties, declared bankruptcy. Daly, in addition to it's extensive line of imported shotguns and rifles also imported Philippine made 1911's from Armscorp. It was a time of extensive transition in the arms industry. KBI and Daly closed their doors in 2010 or so. For a number of years you could buy an FEG Hi-power, the Argentine version or the Daly versions for 1/2 the price, or lower of the FN gun. They sold well and still do on the used gun market. tipoc Last edited by tipoc; February 20, 2017 at 12:39 PM. |
February 20, 2017, 05:18 PM | #82 |
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When they make a left hand friendly model I will be the first in line to buy one. I picked an RIA 9mm 1911 over a Colt due to the fact that the Colt thumb safety was for right hand only. If the Colt would have had that simple Ambi safety I would now own a 9mm 1911 with a pony on it. If there was an FNH HiPower that has an ambi safety that I have not seen I would like to see it.
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February 20, 2017, 05:24 PM | #83 | |
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-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle |
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February 20, 2017, 05:27 PM | #84 | |
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http://www.browning.com/products/fir...r-pistols.html tipoc |
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February 20, 2017, 05:30 PM | #85 | |
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The Charles Daly was nothing but a FEG clone with different sights, safety and grips. It was not an improvement on what FN was offering it was just cheaper. For many the sights were a huge turnoff.
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-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle |
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February 20, 2017, 05:32 PM | #86 | |
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FNs transition dates were never hard dates. There were always transition franken pistols. FN never throws away parts they just keep using them. You see a lot of what is referred to as MKII 1/2s in the world of military contract FN Hi Powers. These are MKII guns with MKIII features.
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-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; February 21, 2017 at 05:58 PM. Reason: Correcting error about the ambi safety on MKIIs |
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February 20, 2017, 06:06 PM | #87 |
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Why did S&W cease production of their entire line of semis except for the 1911s and what the custom shop does?
It had nothing to do with their triggers. Or with any other "weaknesses" of the older designs. It had to do with a revolution that began with the AR (most handgun things begin with long guns) and came to fruition with Glock. It was the use of new materials and production techniques that led to increasing the rate of return for the manufacturers. For a smaller cost of investment they received a greater profit. The cost of maintenance and spare parts dropped dramatically. This revolutionized the industry. So S&W dropped a whole line of pistols that had been in the holsters of law enforcement across the U.S. It dumped them. It banked it's future on the line of M&Ps and ARs. Outside of being a single action pistol (which mostly excluded it from being a leo gun in the 1980s and 90s) the place of the BHP has nothing to do with the particular mechanical features of the gun and more to do with the story of handguns in the U.S. Of it's history. What was the MSRP of a BHP in 1979? Here's a page from "The Shooter's Bible" of 1979. Get an engraved one? What about an H&K? Now look at the price of the S&W M39 A Colt pistol What gun will a working man buy? Tariffs raised the cost of imported firearms and with the exception of Spanish piece, Star, Llama, and some others made quality guns more expensive than their U.S. made counterparts during those years. tipoc Last edited by tipoc; February 20, 2017 at 06:12 PM. |
February 20, 2017, 06:13 PM | #88 | |
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February 20, 2017, 06:37 PM | #89 | |
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The 9mm caliber was also not popular and to this day is looked upon by many as a European caliber. US shooters love the 45 ACP. In the end nostalgia had a lot to do with the 1911s continued success. People still love to shoot the gun their grandfather, father, brother etc.... shot in the war. The cost to produce metal framed hammer fired pistols is a "weakness" of their design. They are older designs using older manufacturing technique and materials. The 1911 production has been greatly automated vs what it was in 1911. The BHP never got that upgrade. It has had changes like from a forged frame to a cast one but it has never been moved over to CNC machines and MIM parts like the 1911. S&W got out of the metal gun business because their bread and butter was taken by Glock. They could not continue to compete for the LEO market which the dominated up until the end of Gen 3 Smiths. They were the Glock of their day they basically owned the LEO market. For FN that never happened with the BHP. The BHP in the US was always an after thought vs the govt and LEO sales in the rest of the world. They sell every BHP they produce which these days is not a lot. Anyway I love the pistol I just know its short comings.
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February 20, 2017, 06:50 PM | #90 | |
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That KBI or FEG didn't make a long term goal of it had nothing to do with no one wanting the guns. Bigger forces were at play in the marketplace. Glock, the game changer, being a major one. tipoc |
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February 20, 2017, 09:36 PM | #91 |
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Ok you guys just mae my wife mad by showing an ambidextrous model. Now I will have to get one sometime soon. The thing is I have not seen one on a store shelf around here in years.
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February 20, 2017, 09:55 PM | #92 | |
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February 20, 2017, 10:02 PM | #93 |
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I just bought a new BHP last November.
One side is stamped "Made in Belgium" and "Assembled in Portugal". The other side is stamped "Browning Arms Company Morgan, Utah & Montreal P.Q.". It has fixed sights and an ambidextrous safety. I looked at a CZ 75 several years ago and didn't like the feel of it, just didn't fit my hand well and the trigger reach was too long. When I picked up this BHP a few months ago it felt like it was made just for me. I have no idea what people are talking about w/r/t the trigger reset, the reset on mine is short and the trigger is very crisp. I paid considerably more than the $349 in the ad that was posted, but it's easily my favorite gun in my "arsenal". |
February 21, 2017, 12:33 AM | #94 |
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First i should say that 1911's and HP's are two of my favorite pistols and i see no need to compare them in popularity. If there were 1911's available in any numbers for importation ( like the Argentine a few years back) they would quickly sell out. Just as so many are anxiously waiting for the last 1911's in army storage to be released for sale from CMP, at 10,000 per year i do not think they would last very long.
A few years back importation of thousands of Hi Powers began, at first there were some really desireable pistols available at prices far below retail for a new one. Sales have been brisk and a few short years later there are "bottom of the barrel" pistols left. Today most have been heavily blasted and parkerized as well as force matched via the electro pencil. Yet they are still selling. There is a strong following for the HP in this country, nothing the 1911 must be concerned with but strong none the less. I cherish my Colt's from WWI and II but myHigh Powers span pre war to post war to WWII Inglis and then into the MkII and Mk III era. Tangent sight pistols are works of art and the ones marked Browning not FN have a blue that would outshine a Colt Python. |
February 21, 2017, 06:52 AM | #95 | |
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To my knowledge the MKII was simply a development in the pistol based on updating it and cutting cost which FN routinely did. I have never seen any documentation suggesting it was developed to replace the 1911. The BHP world wide was a much more successful contract pistol than the 1911. I would be interested in a citation for that claim. R Blake Stevens, Vanderlinden and Camp do not reference it.
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-The right to be left alone is the most comprehensive of rights, and the right most valued by free people.-Louis Brandeis -Its a tool box... I don't care you put the tools in for the job that's all... -Sam from Ronin -It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it. -Aristotle Last edited by WVsig; February 21, 2017 at 07:01 AM. |
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February 21, 2017, 08:23 AM | #96 | |
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I have a basic WWII style 1911A1. I love it for what it is, but it is an obsolete gun if I needed a combat pistol, and that would be one of the last guns in my collection that I'd choose. Where you can buy a 1911 from a number of manufacturers with very modern features that make it a much better combat gun. You can have it your way, right off the shelf. My Colt CCO is an example of this. It is still a relevant CCW or HD weapon. The original 1911A1 is not really, even if it could be used in an emergency. The 1911s in mass production have evolved with the times (What frame size do you want? What kind of sights do you want? When was the last time hammer bite was a thing?). The BHP really has not, at least not in any mass production sense.
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February 21, 2017, 10:30 AM | #97 | |
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The MkIII is basically the "lessons learned during U.S. pistol trials" update that occurred after FN lost out to Beretta. FN is generally pretty good about sliding new upgrades quietly into the mix. For example, post-2000 MkIIIs have a different slide stop than previous Hi-Powers; but the change is so subtle you have to compare them side by side to notice it. |
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February 21, 2017, 01:26 PM | #98 | |
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FN never had to produce many multiple versions of a gun that was selling (unless a part of a military contract called for it). FN has likely made more adaptations to the commercial market in it's rifles and shotguns over the decades than with the BHP. Now sales have been slumping for the BHP and FN has been producing polymer pieces to meet market demands. It's a mistake I think to take an American-centric view of the international market for guns. For reasons discussed earlier the U.S. market for the BHP was just a piece, and not a real big piece, of FN's picture. You can't compare it to the 1911 either. In the U.S. there is no other gun that compares to the 1911 market. Springfield (not the federal armory the Co. that bought the name) began producing 1911 clones in 1985, so the Blue Book tells me. They sold OK. Over the next decade the market for the 1911 grew. Kimber began selling them in 1997 or thereabouts. Those first guns were masterpieces. Which compelled Springfield to step up. Nowdays Kimber is selling new guns like Nike sells tennis shoes-a new one each year and the old ones disappear. The competition in the 1911 market place became intense, due the falling rate of return. tipoc |
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February 21, 2017, 01:57 PM | #99 | |
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The 1911, (and more recently the AR15) has reached a wonderful critical mass where a lot of manufacturers are trying to squeeze into the market where there have been some exceptional leaders raising the bar for the others. This also seems to be a US thing. I can't think of any other guns from any other country that had such a competitive market as the 1911 and AR15. Even though the BHP has a heritage comparable to the 1911, it never the large number of manufactures competing against each other.
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February 21, 2017, 02:27 PM | #100 | |
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NATO adopted the BHP as a standard sidearm. It was in a certain configuration. It was popular. FN did upgrade some. Saive made a da version of the gun in 1950. Other versions followed over the years. The Mk II and III, etc. It made stabs at the U.S. leo market, but no big breakthroughs there. But the most popular 9mms to sell in the U.S. for years were the da/sa guns till Glock showed up. Even then the da/sa guns and dao have more than held their own against Glock in the commercial market. Both Sig, HK and Beretta sell well. The last decade with 9mm being plentiful and still relatively cheap the demand for 1911s in 9mm has grown. For decades not many wanted a 1911 in 9mm. Now everybody is building them. Maybe there will be an uptick in interest in the BHP. Who knows? It would be nice to see. tipoc |
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