Remington Rand 1911A1

lockedcj7 · August 15, 2012, 09:19 PM

Okay guys, I've been wanting a WWII 1911 for several years and I finally saw one in my local gunshop. The price was $1200 and it was in fairly poor condition. The original finish was mostly gone and turned to a brown patina. It had replacement wood grips and some fairly serious pitting on the slide.

Sorry, I don't have any pics but I'm looking for a ballpark number for value. There were several guys interested but I went ahead and put it on lay-away to give me time to do some research and decide if it was really worth it. The only prices I can find online are $1500 and up (some are waaaay up) but most of those auction listings are 2+ years old and the guns are in better condition.

So what say the experts?

Creeper · August 15, 2012, 09:43 PM

I respectfully suggest, that if you intend to buy collector firearms, you also buy a hard copy of, or an on-line subscription to S.P. Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values.
You can get the on-line subscription and have the answer to your question (and thousands of other questions) tonight.

Cheers,
C

jasmith85 · August 15, 2012, 09:48 PM

I'm definitely not an expert on them but locally I have seen them listed as low as $700 and as high as $2500. I think it all just depends on the person selling it though. The one I saw for $700 was in decent shape and being sold in a local gun shop late last year and the one for $2500 was a private seller and, judging by the pictures, was in no better shape than the $700 one.

lamarw · August 15, 2012, 10:52 PM

It is hard to say without pictures or seeing the pistol. If it fits in the collectible category, the price sounds fair. If it is in rough condition and/or with mix-matched parts then it is most likely priced twice or three times the value.

Here is where you need to start researching:

http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911infopage.htm

and:

http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay....0&daysprune=-1

The condition you described would cause me to walk away from it.

There are plenty of other example out there in the price range you mentioned. You may want to check out the Rock Island Auction Company to be held in early September. Here is a link to the Remington Rands (there are plenty of other 1911's up for auction also) they have on the block:

http://rockislandauction.com/search/aid/56

After researching, you need to see if the seller will allow you to field strip the pistols and exam the parts to insure they are correct for the pistol.

cecILL · August 16, 2012, 07:09 AM

CJ, the USGIs are a huge sub catagory of firearms.
Sooo much to learn and understand.
The demand tends to bring fakes and cheaters to the surface.
Tread carefully my friend.

mete · August 16, 2012, 08:01 AM

Just as a reminder .I think this confusion drives up the price . Remington Arms Co is NOT related to the Remington Rand Co .The later made typewriters. However the two families are related !

10mm4ever · August 16, 2012, 12:47 PM

In the condition you described, NO. The Rands are IMO, the best GI's ever made, but when you have decades of abuse/neglect it makes it nearly impossible to tell.

lockedcj7 · August 16, 2012, 03:59 PM

I do have a little knowledge about WWII guns since I've owned and researched a few Garands so I took that experience and ran with it.

I checked out some of the links provided and then went back to the gunshop and checked out the gun again. Here's what I found:

The condition is better than I remembered. It has some normal handling marks and what I thought was brown patina is actually the green-brown original finish. The pitting is really confined to one area on the slide and slide-stop. It is well broken in but far from abused or worn out.

Based on the serial #, it's a 1944 frame with a type 3 slide so that part is consistent. Trying to determine if the small parts are all correct is virtually impossible for several reasons. RR had to source parts from several different manufacturers at different times during production and virtually all issued guns exhibit a mix of parts as a result of arms-room and field repairs.

The story behind the gun is that a WWII vet brought it into the store and sold it. It is supposedly the one that he carried and brought back.

The bottom line is that I want it, I can afford it and twenty years from now I won't remember what I paid for it. I'll be sure to document it better and post some pics when I get it home.

James K · August 16, 2012, 04:12 PM

"The two families are related." Not really. When Christopher Sholes invented the first practical typewriter in 1868 (and gave us the QWERTY keyboard), he sought out a company with the mechanical expertise to actually build the thing. He went to E. Remington & Sons, who bought the patent rights and made typewriters under Sholes' patent.

Later, Remington wanted to get back to their core business, firearms, and "spun off" the typewriter business to a new company, the Remington Typewriter Co., which later merged with other companies to become Remington Rand. After WWII, Remington Rand was bought by Sperry, becoming Sperry Rand and later Unisys.

So the two companies, Remington Arms and Remington Rand were "related" in a way, but it was not a family or personal connection. Remington Arms made M1911 pistols during WWI; Remington Rand made M1911A1 pistols during WWII. So the current Remington Arms claim to have experience building M1911's is true if the WWI era is considered.

Jim

moxie · August 16, 2012, 07:03 PM

Two key concepts:

1. You want it

2. You can afford it.

What else is there?

lamarw · August 16, 2012, 07:46 PM

We can say congrats on your new pistol. I carried a Remington Rand during my tour in Nam. It served me well.

Now that you have it, you may want to frequent the M1911 forum I provided as a link earlier.

lockedcj7 · August 19, 2012, 08:02 AM

I went to the gunshow to shop prices and see if I could trade a Ruger P95 toward a GI in better condition. I found several but they were either similarly priced for similar condition or much higher priced for slightly better condition.

One guy had a type 3 RR in the 1 mil. serial number range and he claimed that it was pre-production. He was only asking $2800

I did find a Delta Elite for a good price and the guy made a fair offer on my trade. This is what followed me home:

So my first 1911 turned out to be a DE that I've been wanting since 1991. I can still get the GI, It will just take a little longer.

Chesster · August 21, 2012, 03:57 PM

I got this refinished RR a few years back for about 700. Before that, I got a collector's grade for 1200 and the rear of the slide seemed like it had been beat with a hammer. It was returned.

lockedcj7 · September 12, 2012, 06:23 PM

I've always admired 1911s but never owned one and I'm 40 y.o. Now I have two!

I finally went back and picked up the pistol today. In the mean time, I found a set of correct Keyes grips online for only $15 with free shipping.

Here are the pics that I promised:

Chesster · September 12, 2012, 06:55 PM

Nice find.

**44 AMP** · September 12, 2012, 08:54 PM

that looks like a commercial safety lock to me...might be "right" for the gun, although I do seem to remember the small tab lever on the original GI gun that I used to have. $1200 for that gun? I wouldn't.

Lost Sheep · September 13, 2012, 01:03 AM

In 1980 I had the opportunity to obtain a WWI gun whose serial number indicated it was from the second production run of guns sold to the U.S. military.

It had a General Issue leather holster, too. It had obviously seen service in both WWI and either WWII or Korea, as it had been refinished with Parkerizing.

I had the chance to trade an 85-210 mm camera lense (for 35mmm film camera) straight across for it. Lens probably worth $200 at the time.

I didn't make the trade because I had orders to come to Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska, which meant I would drive across Canada (and would have to bear the expense of shipping the gun) and I thought I would probably want to use the lens on the trip.

Since that day, I have never shot a single picture through that lens.

I still think about that piece of history.

I don't have any help for putting a price on your gun, but wanted to share my cautionary tale.

Lost Sheep

RsqVet · September 13, 2012, 02:10 AM

The safety does look wrong, and from the pics looks like more of a shooter grade gun. I personally would not have given 1200 on it but then prices can be all over on them, seems for a Rand I have seen higher condition guns of late for not much more than 1200 in this local.

Kreyzhorse · September 13, 2012, 06:14 AM

I'm not sure about the price either but done is done. Shoot it occasionally and enjoy it always.

sailskidrive · September 13, 2012, 07:55 AM

I would be interested in seeing more pics of yours (don't use a flash this time). Does it have the correct main spring housing? Is the finish parkerized or has it been blued?

Here is my 1943 Type II Remington Rand I bought in 2006 for a sweet $650 before the tinfoil hat folks thought the new administration was going to take all their guns.

For some reason it does not have the original hammer. I had a knowledgeable gunsmith look at it and he immediately pointed out the hammer and then went in the back and brought out a Rem Rand with the exact same hammer. Apparently it is period correct and probably a replacement part.

Anyway, this Type II was manufactured in '43 only a few days after the assembly line was restarted following a retooling effort to address quality control issues.

While I have shot it (just to put a smile on my face), I no longer do so. To no surprise, my Kimber TLE II far out performs it in terms of trigger break and accuracy.

August 15, 2012, 09:19 PM	#1
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Remington Rand 1911A1 Okay guys, I've been wanting a WWII 1911 for several years and I finally saw one in my local gunshop. The price was $1200 and it was in fairly poor condition. The original finish was mostly gone and turned to a brown patina. It had replacement wood grips and some fairly serious pitting on the slide. Sorry, I don't have any pics but I'm looking for a ballpark number for value. There were several guys interested but I went ahead and put it on lay-away to give me time to do some research and decide if it was really worth it. The only prices I can find online are $1500 and up (some are waaaay up) but most of those auction listings are 2+ years old and the guns are in better condition. So what say the experts? __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

August 15, 2012, 09:43 PM	#2
Creeper Senior Member Join Date: September 9, 2008 Location: Woooooshington Posts: 1,797	I respectfully suggest, that if you intend to buy collector firearms, you also buy a hard copy of, or an on-line subscription to S.P. Fjestad's Blue Book of Gun Values. You can get the on-line subscription and have the answer to your question (and thousands of other questions) tonight. Cheers, C __________________ Shoulder Drive Nicholson Club

August 16, 2012, 08:01 AM	#6
mete Senior Member Join Date: June 14, 2004 Location: NY State Posts: 6,575	Just as a reminder .I think this confusion drives up the price . Remington Arms Co is NOT related to the Remington Rand Co .The later made typewriters. However the two families are related ! __________________ And Watson , bring your revolver !

August 16, 2012, 03:59 PM	#8
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	Thanks guys I do have a little knowledge about WWII guns since I've owned and researched a few Garands so I took that experience and ran with it. I checked out some of the links provided and then went back to the gunshop and checked out the gun again. Here's what I found: The condition is better than I remembered. It has some normal handling marks and what I thought was brown patina is actually the green-brown original finish. The pitting is really confined to one area on the slide and slide-stop. It is well broken in but far from abused or worn out. Based on the serial #, it's a 1944 frame with a type 3 slide so that part is consistent. Trying to determine if the small parts are all correct is virtually impossible for several reasons. RR had to source parts from several different manufacturers at different times during production and virtually all issued guns exhibit a mix of parts as a result of arms-room and field repairs. The story behind the gun is that a WWII vet brought it into the store and sold it. It is supposedly the one that he carried and brought back. The bottom line is that I want it, I can afford it and twenty years from now I won't remember what I paid for it. I'll be sure to document it better and post some pics when I get it home. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

August 16, 2012, 07:03 PM	#10
moxie Senior Member Join Date: October 17, 2006 Location: TX Posts: 513	Two key concepts: 1. You want it 2. You can afford it. What else is there? __________________ If you want to shoot...shoot...don't talk! Tuco USAF Munitions 1969-1992 RVN 1972-1973

August 15, 2012, 09:48 PM	#3
jasmith85 Senior Member Join Date: April 6, 2012 Location: Tennessee Posts: 631	I'm definitely not an expert on them but locally I have seen them listed as low as $700 and as high as $2500. I think it all just depends on the person selling it though. The one I saw for $700 was in decent shape and being sold in a local gun shop late last year and the one for $2500 was a private seller and, judging by the pictures, was in no better shape than the $700 one.

August 15, 2012, 10:52 PM	#4
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	It is hard to say without pictures or seeing the pistol. If it fits in the collectible category, the price sounds fair. If it is in rough condition and/or with mix-matched parts then it is most likely priced twice or three times the value. Here is where you need to start researching: http://www.coolgunsite.com/pistols/1911infopage.htm and: http://forum.m1911.org/forumdisplay....0&daysprune=-1 The condition you described would cause me to walk away from it. There are plenty of other example out there in the price range you mentioned. You may want to check out the Rock Island Auction Company to be held in early September. Here is a link to the Remington Rands (there are plenty of other 1911's up for auction also) they have on the block: http://rockislandauction.com/search/aid/56 After researching, you need to see if the seller will allow you to field strip the pistols and exam the parts to insure they are correct for the pistol.

August 16, 2012, 07:09 AM	#5
cecILL Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2001 Location: central IL Posts: 769	CJ, the USGIs are a huge sub catagory of firearms. Sooo much to learn and understand. The demand tends to bring fakes and cheaters to the surface. Tread carefully my friend.

August 16, 2012, 12:47 PM	#7
10mm4ever Senior Member Join Date: December 11, 2005 Location: SW Ohio Posts: 808	In the condition you described, NO. The Rands are IMO, the best GI's ever made, but when you have decades of abuse/neglect it makes it nearly impossible to tell.

August 16, 2012, 04:12 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"The two families are related." Not really. When Christopher Sholes invented the first practical typewriter in 1868 (and gave us the QWERTY keyboard), he sought out a company with the mechanical expertise to actually build the thing. He went to E. Remington & Sons, who bought the patent rights and made typewriters under Sholes' patent. Later, Remington wanted to get back to their core business, firearms, and "spun off" the typewriter business to a new company, the Remington Typewriter Co., which later merged with other companies to become Remington Rand. After WWII, Remington Rand was bought by Sperry, becoming Sperry Rand and later Unisys. So the two companies, Remington Arms and Remington Rand were "related" in a way, but it was not a family or personal connection. Remington Arms made M1911 pistols during WWI; Remington Rand made M1911A1 pistols during WWII. So the current Remington Arms claim to have experience building M1911's is true if the WWI era is considered. Jim

August 16, 2012, 07:46 PM	#11
lamarw Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2010 Location: Lake Martin, AL Posts: 3,311	We can say congrats on your new pistol. I carried a Remington Rand during my tour in Nam. It served me well. Now that you have it, you may want to frequent the M1911 forum I provided as a link earlier.

August 19, 2012, 08:02 AM	#12
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	The plot thickens... I went to the gunshow to shop prices and see if I could trade a Ruger P95 toward a GI in better condition. I found several but they were either similarly priced for similar condition or much higher priced for slightly better condition. One guy had a type 3 RR in the 1 mil. serial number range and he claimed that it was pre-production. He was only asking $2800 I did find a Delta Elite for a good price and the guy made a fair offer on my trade. This is what followed me home: So my first 1911 turned out to be a DE that I've been wanting since 1991. I can still get the GI, It will just take a little longer. __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

August 21, 2012, 03:57 PM	#13
Chesster Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Dixie Posts: 2,538	I got this refinished RR a few years back for about 700. Before that, I got a collector's grade for 1200 and the rear of the slide seemed like it had been beat with a hammer. It was returned. __________________ Chesster Proud NDN "The American Idle" Vote 'Pro-Choice' on 2nd Amendment issues!!!

September 12, 2012, 06:23 PM	#14
lockedcj7 Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 2007 Posts: 1,215	I've always admired 1911s but never owned one and I'm 40 y.o. Now I have two! I finally went back and picked up the pistol today. In the mean time, I found a set of correct Keyes grips online for only $15 with free shipping. Here are the pics that I promised: __________________ To a much greater extent than most mechanical devices, firearms are terribly unforgiving of any overconfidence, complacency or negligence.

September 12, 2012, 06:55 PM	#15
Chesster Senior Member Join Date: September 6, 2007 Location: Dixie Posts: 2,538	Nice find. __________________ Chesster Proud NDN "The American Idle" Vote 'Pro-Choice' on 2nd Amendment issues!!!

September 12, 2012, 08:54 PM	#16
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,846	that looks like a commercial safety lock to me...might be "right" for the gun, although I do seem to remember the small tab lever on the original GI gun that I used to have. $1200 for that gun? I wouldn't. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 13, 2012, 01:03 AM	#17
Lost Sheep Senior Member Join Date: January 24, 2009 Location: Anchorage Alaska Posts: 3,341	You don't want to ask me In 1980 I had the opportunity to obtain a WWI gun whose serial number indicated it was from the second production run of guns sold to the U.S. military. It had a General Issue leather holster, too. It had obviously seen service in both WWI and either WWII or Korea, as it had been refinished with Parkerizing. I had the chance to trade an 85-210 mm camera lense (for 35mmm film camera) straight across for it. Lens probably worth $200 at the time. I didn't make the trade because I had orders to come to Elmendorf Air Force Base in Alaska, which meant I would drive across Canada (and would have to bear the expense of shipping the gun) and I thought I would probably want to use the lens on the trip. Since that day, I have never shot a single picture through that lens. I still think about that piece of history. I don't have any help for putting a price on your gun, but wanted to share my cautionary tale. Lost Sheep

September 13, 2012, 02:10 AM	#18
RsqVet Senior Member Join Date: February 20, 2005 Posts: 2,474	The safety does look wrong, and from the pics looks like more of a shooter grade gun. I personally would not have given 1200 on it but then prices can be all over on them, seems for a Rand I have seen higher condition guns of late for not much more than 1200 in this local.

September 13, 2012, 06:14 AM	#19
Kreyzhorse Senior Member Join Date: April 12, 2006 Location: NKY Posts: 12,463	I'm not sure about the price either but done is done. Shoot it occasionally and enjoy it always. __________________ "He who laughs last, laughs dead." Homer Simpson

September 13, 2012, 07:55 AM	#20
sailskidrive Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2008 Posts: 726	I would be interested in seeing more pics of yours (don't use a flash this time). Does it have the correct main spring housing? Is the finish parkerized or has it been blued? Here is my 1943 Type II Remington Rand I bought in 2006 for a sweet $650 before the tinfoil hat folks thought the new administration was going to take all their guns. For some reason it does not have the original hammer. I had a knowledgeable gunsmith look at it and he immediately pointed out the hammer and then went in the back and brought out a Rem Rand with the exact same hammer. Apparently it is period correct and probably a replacement part. Anyway, this Type II was manufactured in '43 only a few days after the assembly line was restarted following a retooling effort to address quality control issues. While I have shot it (just to put a smile on my face), I no longer do so. To no surprise, my Kimber TLE II far out performs it in terms of trigger break and accuracy. __________________ SailSkiDrive Hk USP 45 Expert, USP 40, USP 9, SIG P226, S&W M&P9, Hk 4, Makarov, Desert Eagle 40, Beretta FS92 Centurion, Kimber TLEII 1911A1, Glock 22, SIG P225, 1943 Rem Rand 1911A1, S&W mod 64, Walther PPQ, SIG P229, Browning BDA 45 (SIG P220), Hk45, SIG P230 Last edited by sailskidrive; September 13, 2012 at 08:24 AM.