The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old November 21, 2023, 10:03 PM   #1
Deerhunt
Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 90
Lever action 350 Legend?

Been awhile since I posted on here but wanted to get everybody's opinion and see if it'd even work. I've been thinking about trying to make a 350 in a lever action. I have a 350 Legend AR that I built when the cartridge first came out, I also have a savage bolt action and tons of 350 ammo, target and deer loads both. And yes I know with the new 360 Buckhammer it'd be easier to just get one of those, but I don't have any ammunition for it, and I just like to be different Been awhile since I posted on here but wanted to get everybody's opinion and see if it'd even work. I've been thinking about trying to make a 350 in a lever action. I have a 350 Legend AR that I built when the cartridge first came out, I also have a savage bolt action and tons of 350 ammo, target and deer loads both. And yes I know with the new 360 Buckhammer it'd be easier to just get one of those, but I don't have any ammunition for it, and I just like to be different. So now to my question: why couldn't I just get a 223 lever action (Long Ranger or BLR) and either get the barrel bored out or a new barrel for it and be able to shoot 350? From my understanding the bolt face should be the same as I used a 223/5.56 in my AR when I built it for the 350. I'm guessing it'd need some adjustment for the headspace? I have never done anything like this so I'm sure I'm missing something, but what's everyone's thoughts?
__________________
"Well a gun that's UNloaded and cocked ain't good for nothin"-John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn.
Deerhunt is offline  
Old February 14, 2024, 09:54 PM   #2
Buckeye!
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 1, 2008
Posts: 843
Bearcreek Arsenal is making basically a AR Levergun.. so a 350 Legend is coming.. but not in a traditional Platform
Buckeye! is offline  
Old February 14, 2024, 10:35 PM   #3
Pumpkin
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 18, 2020
Location: Seguin Texas
Posts: 352
Deleted

Last edited by Pumpkin; February 15, 2024 at 02:38 PM.
Pumpkin is offline  
Old February 15, 2024, 12:37 AM   #4
P Flados
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 8, 2017
Location: Wilmington NC
Posts: 241
i see no reason why a 223 lever can not be re-bored to 350L.

Getting the magazine to work good would be my biggest concern.

I was surprised that Henry did not off a 350L when it came out.
P Flados is offline  
Old February 15, 2024, 09:57 AM   #5
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Flados
Getting the magazine to work good would be my biggest concern.
I would wait a bit. Henry is supposed to come out with a Lever Action Supreme rifle that uses AR magazines. It would probably be the easiest bet for a properly functioning rifle in .350 Legend. I'm sure you can make it from a BLR or Henry Long Ranger as well, but feeding and functioning would be my main concern as well. I'm not informed enough about either rifle to move on a project like that.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old February 18, 2024, 06:03 AM   #6
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
I was surprised that Henry did not off a 350L when it came out.
Cause they're smart.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old February 18, 2024, 11:46 AM   #7
Shadow9mm
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 21, 2012
Location: Indianapolis, IN
Posts: 3,925
Quote:
Originally Posted by P Flados View Post
i see no reason why a 223 lever can not be re-bored to 350L.

Getting the magazine to work good would be my biggest concern.

I was surprised that Henry did not off a 350L when it came out.
Re-barreled possibly, but Id expect you would need a bull barrel to have enough metal to re-bore.
__________________
I don't believe in "range fodder" that is why I reload.
Shadow9mm is offline  
Old February 18, 2024, 02:54 PM   #8
GeauxTide
Senior Member
 
Join Date: April 20, 2009
Location: Helena, AL
Posts: 4,408
BLR comes in 30-06 class cartridges because of the sturdy bolt/receiver, so the Legend would be usable. I much prefer the 450 Bushmaster.
__________________
Reloading For: 223R, 243W, 6.5 GR, 6.5 CM, 260R, 6.5-06, 280R, 7mmRM, 300HAM'R, 308W, 30-06, 338-06, 9mm, 357M, 41M, 44SPL, 44M, 45 ACP, 45 Colt, 450BM.
GeauxTide is offline  
Old February 18, 2024, 04:16 PM   #9
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,504
Quote:
BLR comes in 30-06 class cartridges because of the sturdy bolt/receiver, so the Legend would be usable.
Not easily, but possibly if you care to have enough work done.

The BLR came in .308 Win and other rounds in that family, originally, and later a long action version was added allowing it to handle the .30-06 family of rounds.

ALL these rounds use the common .473" rim size.

The .350 Legend has a .390" head and a rebated rim measuring .378", the same size as the .222 family of rounds.

SO, besides the extra length of the BLR (short) action, the bolt face is too large for the Legend case and that would have to be modified, (and likely the extractor and possibly the ejector) to fit the smaller rims.

There is, apparently, a BLR factory made in .223. This would be the only reasonable choice to use to convert a BLR to .350 Legend. All the other BLRs are too big to be reasonable candidates.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 08:53 AM   #10
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,178
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow9mm
Re-barreled possibly, but Id expect you would need a bull barrel to have enough metal to re-bore.
He won't need a bull barrel, I know of several people who have rebored sporter weight barrels to .35 Whelen and 9.3X62. Both of which operate with more pressure than the Legend.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 11:48 AM   #11
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
SO, besides the extra length of the BLR (short) action, the bolt face is too large for the Legend case and that would have to be modified, (and likely the extractor and possibly the ejector) to fit the smaller rims.
IIRC--the extractor groove is also exceedingly long for the legend; so there's that, too.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!
stagpanther is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 04:33 PM   #12
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,504
Quote:
He won't need a bull barrel, I know of several people who have rebored sporter weight barrels to .35 Whelen and 9.3X62. Both of which operate with more pressure than the Legend.
Its not just the pressure, its also the amount (thickness) of steel left after the bore is enlarged. ,22 to .35? Probably ok, but it would depend on the specific barrel profile, I would think.

A few decades back, there was a company that was reworking GI .30 carbines to .45 Win mag, boring out the original barrels. They switched to installing a new .45 cal barrel after the first couple years, as several of the rebored carbine barrels split. They are long gone now, I just mention this as an example of a situation where they thought the rebored barrel was thick enough, but it turned out not to be.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 04:42 PM   #13
Webleymkv
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 20, 2005
Location: Indiana
Posts: 10,431
You can have pretty much anything you want if you're willing to go to the trouble and expense to get it, the question is what is your intended use for the rifle and is it worth the trouble and expense to have one made? To get a lever-action rifle in .350 Legend, you're going to have to buy an existing rifle in another caliber and, at the very least, have it rebarreled. If you want to stay with a box-fed magazine, that means you're going to need either a Browning BLR, Henry Long Ranger, or possibly a Winchester 1895 (though that would almost certainly require more extensive gunsmithing work). None of these rifles are inexpensive nor would the gunsmithing work necessary to convert them to .350 Legend. For the prices involved, you could likely buy a less-expensive lever gun in a different caliber and still have enough left over to buy a lot of ammunition and/or reloading components for the new caliber.

You might be able to buy a more traditional tube-fed lever action for a more reasonable price and have it converted, but you're probably looking at more gunsmithing costs to do so and you'll be more limited in what types of bullets you can use. Most of the .350 Legend ammunition I've seen uses fairly pointy bullets which don't mesh well with a tubular magazine (they create the possibility of chain-fires) so you'd be limited to round-nose or flat-point bullets or, at best, some sort of flex-tip bullet like Hornady uses in their LeverEvolution ammunition (I don't know if FTX bullets are available in the proper weights/diameters for .350 Legend). Regardless, your range and trajectory are going to be more limited and you'd be unlikely to be able to use most, if not all, of the ammunition you already have if you convert a gun with a tubular magazine.

I guess the question I'd be asking is what you're intended use for such a rifle is? As I understand it, the primary reason for the development of the .350 Legend was to try to get the most effective cartridge available for AR's and Bolt-Action rifles for use in states that limit legal deer calibers to straight-walled cartridges. There are already several very good straight-walled cartridges that are more than capable deer calibers already widely available in lever-action rifles including not only the .360 Buckhammer that you mentioned but also .38-55 Winchester, .444 Marlin, and .45-70. Even pistol-calibers like .357 Magnum, .41 Magnum, .44 Magnum, and .45 Long Colt have demonstrated themselves to be good deer cartridges from a lever-action rifle. Of course, if the point is to have something different, then more the power to you.
Webleymkv is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 07:48 PM   #14
jmr40
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 15, 2008
Location: Georgia
Posts: 10,773
Lots of used lever actions out there in 35 Rem. That's the way I'd go.
__________________
"If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong"

Winston Churchill
jmr40 is offline  
Old February 19, 2024, 08:04 PM   #15
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,504
Except for a BLR in .223, (or some other maker's lever gun in .223) EVERY lever gun you're going to find was made to handle bigger, longer and FATTER cartridges.

That means extensive shop work to allow the large action to handle the small case, and that assumes you can find a competent smith willing to try.

Such work might run you more than the cost of the rifle you wish to convert, possibly a couple times over.

Other than as a project to see if you can do it, or possibly as a show off piece showcasing the skill of the smith doing the conversion, there's no point.

The entire reason for the existence of the .350 Legend is for hunting in those few states whose game regs restrict hunters to "straight" cases of a certain length, and it has no niche where those laws don't exist.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 20, 2024, 12:30 PM   #16
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
As the person who developed the cartridge that Winchester renamed the 350 legend , I can tell you will out a doubt that the reason it was made was for straight walled case states and it has no other niche is totally WRONG . That is BS and you are repeating it . It was made for Texas hog hunting . I started a line of straight walled cartridges in many calibers about 25 + years ago . The idea was to shoot pistol bullets at low rifle velocities for the most knock down power without exiting the hog and carrying away muzzle energy . The .357 version was one of the last [ besides the .40 ] and was popular with my friends that I built rifles for . Bolt rifles were first to test the round . AR's were next to give them much better hitting power than .223 . Mine version uses common .223 cases and cheap , common .357 bullets . Win changed the case head by enough so you had to by their cases and went with a "new" .355 rifle bullet even though my rifles use the same size barrels as theirs and I use .357 bullets with no problems . The 180 Hornady XTP at sub-sonic give much better performance than the 300 BO . I did this about 8 years ago by now .
ernie8 is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 02:57 AM   #17
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
Win changed the case head by enough so you had to by their cases and went with a "new" .355 rifle bullet even though my rifles use the same size barrels as theirs and I use .357 bullets with no problems .
I had a 350 legend AR blow up on me due to tolerance stacking enabling that elongated case head with thin web to be unsupported by the radiused chamber face.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; February 21, 2024 at 06:24 AM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 08:29 AM   #18
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
I do not get what you are trying to say . A .223 case is strong enough at the head for a .223 round but when it is loaded at a lower pressure with a .357 it is not? With about a 1000 of my rounds fired through 10 rifles I built over 7 years we have had no failure .
ernie8 is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 11:35 AM   #19
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,178
@ernie8, how is the cartridge you're describing different from the wildcat .357 Max Rimless?
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 11:43 AM   #20
stagpanther
Senior Member
 
Join Date: March 2, 2014
Posts: 11,542
Quote:
I do not get what you are trying to say . A .223 case is strong enough at the head for a .223 round but when it is loaded at a lower pressure with a .357 it is not? With about a 1000 of my rounds fired through 10 rifles I built over 7 years we have had no failure .
I know it's a bit hard to follow (hard for me to put into the right words), so bear with me. The design of the initial Win SAAMI specs resulted in a release of reamers and guages that could result in as much as 10 thousandths of an inch of headspace and still pass the go/no-go measurements (if, for example, your case was on the small side and chamber was at max at deltas). The problem was the extractor groove went "high" to the base of the web which was thin. It wasn't just me, others experienced the same thing including a top manufacturer of custom AR rifles. Breech face of an AR chamber can have a radiused chamfer at the opening; so if your headspace was at or near maximum it could result in the web--which was quite thin to begin with--being unsupported by the chamber. KABOOM! The legend discharging in reverse can still do a lot of damage.

Myself and Meheavy wrote about it when we jumped on the legend bandwagon.
__________________
"Everyone speaks gun."--Robert O'Neill
I am NOT an expert--I do not have any formal experience or certification in firearms use or testing; use any information I post at your own risk!

Last edited by stagpanther; February 21, 2024 at 12:41 PM.
stagpanther is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 01:22 PM   #21
MarkCO
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 21, 1998
Location: Colorado, USA
Posts: 4,293
I jumped on, then quickly off the .350L bandwagon. Saw too many issues, and I preferred the .35 Rem anyway. I might, at some point look at a 400L, but I'm just not thrilled with a heavier, clunkier weapon system for shooting 1 or maybe in a rare case, 2 rounds at a Deer.
__________________
Good Shooting, MarkCO
www.CarbonArms.us
MarkCO is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 04:11 PM   #22
44 AMP
Staff
 
Join Date: March 11, 2006
Location: Upper US
Posts: 28,504
I am a bit confused about what it is, specifically, you are talking about, when you say "thin web". The web is the thick part, forming the base of the case, and seems an unlikely spot for a blowout,. even if not fully supported by the chamber or bolt. The thin part at the "top" of the web, where the thick web turns into the much thinner case body on the other hand is a much weaker spot.

I have no idea what the early specs on the .350 Legend were, what is given now shows a case head (where the web is) having a diameter of .390" with a rebated rim measuring .378" diameter, which fits the standard .223 AR 15 bolt face.
__________________
All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.
44 AMP is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 04:56 PM   #23
taylorce1
Senior Member
 
Join Date: November 18, 2005
Location: On the Santa Fe Trail
Posts: 8,178
To me it sounded like a case head seperation.
__________________
NRA Life Member
taylorce1 is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 06:40 PM   #24
ernie8
Senior Member
 
Join Date: October 9, 2018
Posts: 217
I do not know about other reamers as I made my own reamer . I cut my own chambers, I formed my own brass . My cases headspace on the case mouth , like all of my other straight wall rounds do . My cases are made from .223 so they have a .378 head and rim . I do not use headspace go/no go gauges . I can cut a chamber to within .001 of where I want it by just measuring . I have never had any problems with the rifles I made . Sounds like someone else made stuff wrong ??? I still do not understand how extra headspace that would let the case go forward cause the rear of the case to blow out . How a head separation can happen , Unless the barrel is set wrong in the barrel extension ?? The other question My .357 Bandit round in a little longer than a rimless .357 Max , and using .223 cases that are rated for more pressure than a .357 max case . I sure others have had the same idea , it was not really brilliant , Just easy and cheap to make ammo that worked well for pig hunting . One of my other cartridges the 500 Bandit is not easy or cheap . But a 500 grain 50 cal bullet out of a 8lb bolt rifle does do a number on hogs . The others are 40 , 44 and 45 cal .
ernie8 is offline  
Old February 21, 2024, 07:24 PM   #25
Deerhunt
Member
 
Join Date: March 18, 2017
Location: Michigan
Posts: 90
Hi all, after making this post awhile ago and having 0 responses, I was pleasantly surprised to see all the responses when I checked this evening! I see a lot of people listing other cartridges I could use instead/might be better, etc. I get that there are others, as I have a BLR 243, Henry 357, and Model 94 in 44 mag. But with that being said, I live in the southern part of Michigan, where I can only shoot straight wall cartridges. And I've taken deer with my 44, and also my 450 Bushmaster AR, and they work fine. But both in 2022 and 2023, I have shot the biggest bucks of my life, 22 being slightly bigger than 23. Now these weren't monsters by any means, but good size bucks and are both on my wall. One at 180 yds and one at 240 yds and they both dropped nicely. They were both shot with my built AR in 350 legend. So I have become attached to the 350 I guess, and would like a nice wood furniture lever to shoot it out of, as I'm not a huge AR fan but love my levers. Also at the time of my first post the Henry Supreme had not come out and this seems like a promising candidate for my mission, although I don't know how I feel about no hammer...
__________________
"Well a gun that's UNloaded and cocked ain't good for nothin"-John Wayne as Rooster Cogburn.
Deerhunt is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 12:52 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.11801 seconds with 8 queries