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Old July 27, 2023, 09:09 PM   #1
tangolima
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Flash hider as barrel tuner

I want to try my hands on barrel tuner. But I'm too cheap to spend hundred of dollar for a hunk of metal. A few ideas to try with much lower costs. One is of course the flash hider / muzzle brake I may already have on the muzzle end of the barrel. With a jam nut I can move it in and out, can I not? Has anyone tried doing that already? How did it go? I guess not much, huh? Otherwise everybody is monkeying that already.

-TL

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Old July 27, 2023, 09:35 PM   #2
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I wonder what the results would be if you could zip tie a bean bag to the barrel and shoot groups with that in different barrel positions and see if there is a correlation measurable on Target.
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Old July 27, 2023, 09:38 PM   #3
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I actually have plans similar to that.

-TL

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Old July 28, 2023, 01:34 AM   #4
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A lot more work, but a lot cheaper would be to get a long barrel and then take off length in very small increments.

You'd have to crown the barrel between shortenings, but there are ways to do that pretty effectively at home with very simple materials. Metal polish and a large ball bearing, for example.
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Old July 28, 2023, 01:45 AM   #5
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No that won't do. I want to find a practical solution to shrink the group and keep shooting, not really a science experiment. I have a few ideas to try, each of which won't cost more than $30. Flash hider for instance, $5 will buy me 2 jam nuts. Not sure the effectiveness though. If it has been tried, I will jump to something else.

-TL

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Old July 28, 2023, 10:55 AM   #6
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Browning BOSS system. Look it up. I've never used one, but people say it works. Also be aware it was made for sporting rifles not benchrest guns.

Everything touching the barrel, where and how, has some effect on the way it vibrates. This may affect your groups or your point of impact, or both.

Common examples are military rifles with and without bayonets fixed. Or clip on barrel bipods.

I get that you are looking to use the flash "hider" to tune by screwing it in or out, and that might work. Also might not. It is possible there might be no noticeable change. Also possible it could make a change for the worse. The only way to know is to do it and find out how your specific combination of rifle and ammo behave.

Good luck!
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Old July 28, 2023, 11:56 AM   #7
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What if you got a piece of heater hose that fit the OD of your barrel and clamped it on with a hose clamp
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Old July 28, 2023, 12:21 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Recycled bullet View Post
What if you got a piece of heater hose that fit the OD of your barrel and clamped it on with a hose clamp
Getting warmer.

-TL

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Old July 28, 2023, 10:59 PM   #9
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Just spend $15 and buy a Simms Barrel De-Resonator. It's as ugly as homemade sin, kind of like heater hose, hose clamps, bean bags, and zip ties on your rifle barrel.
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Old July 28, 2023, 11:26 PM   #10
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Now it is called limsaver barrel dampener. I actually have one on order from Amazon, $11. One of the things to try.

If it works, I don't mind how it looks. I myself am not doing so swell in that department either. However, if the flash hider idea works, even better. One less thing people can make fun of me.

-TL

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Old July 29, 2023, 05:30 AM   #11
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The issue i see with a muzzle devce is that you will be changing the direction gasses are vented when you rotate the device. I would expect this to cause issues with barrel harmonics.

I also would expect the barrel damper to change the barrel harmonics, but not necessarily is a controllable way.

You need weight/mass and a way to finely adjust that mass. Looking at the professional versions ot looks like it would be a royal pain and a half to try and tune with a muzzle devce and a crush washer. And that would be easy compared to tinkering with shims.

If you wanna do it right get a Cortina Precision tuner or tuner brake. Gonna set you back about $150-250 depending on what you get, but its designed to do exactly what your wanting to do. https://www.shootsmallgroups.com/ec-tuner-home/

https://youtu.be/rNK10vZ0KxA

If you considered the time and effort your going to spend trying to reinvent the wheel, let alone trying to tune with it. you could put that time to better use and you could justify buying the professionally made version.
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Old July 29, 2023, 07:49 AM   #12
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Anything you add to the barrel or take away from the barrel will change the harmonics. So you can add a flash hider. Will it improve your groups? Only if the harmonics are changed correctly. They can just as easily change incorrectly. Given that you can't change the positioning very much, you would need to try different weights of flash hiders to find out what had the best impact.

Or, as noted, you get a tuner brake, which tend to cost more than regular brakes, but do allow for weight distribution adjustment. Other options include...
https://www.harrellsprecision.com/co...s/tuner-brakes
https://www.anarchyoutdoors.com/nextgen-ec-tuner-brake/
https://www.sinus-brake.de/en
https://diprecision.com/ec-tuner-nex...a-tuner-brake/
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Old July 29, 2023, 08:12 AM   #13
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There is no doubt barrel tuners do work. However, you always have to constantly tune your barrel. Every time you change something your going to have to retune.

So IMO it doesn't work well with factory ammunition, unless you're buying case lots. Buying a box or two isn't going see the benifit of a tuner. Same way if you use new 1 or 8 lb jug of powder, or lot of primers, and sorted bullets you'll have to start the process all over again.

So take it for what it's worth, tuners do work.
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Old July 29, 2023, 10:42 AM   #14
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My flash hider has symmetrical gas ports all around. The other one is a linear compensator. So no timing issues.

I don't do factory ammos, except.22lr, and even that I stick to one particular make and model. I have my own steps to develop a load. I am not changing that. The tuner is just a final polish, which will probably cost 20 extra rounds. If it helps at all, I will do it.

On the rimfire rifles, on the other hand, it will be the only knob available to tune the rifle to the ammo. The barrels are not threaded, so it won't be flash hider, but some sort of implements that I will explore.

Not reinventing the wheel. This wheel has been there for a long time. No one seems interested in putting it on his car. I will give it a spin.

-TL

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Old July 29, 2023, 11:00 AM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by TL
On the rimfire rifles, on the other hand, it will be the only knob available to tune the rifle to the ammo.
I've used muzzle devices to tune rimfire rifles, but not centerfire.

On 22lr barrels, I don't use a crush washer. I use an O-ring or a hose gasket. The hose gasket is thicker and may permit a larger range of adjustment, but O-rings probably provide as much range as I've ever needed.

The most pronounced result was from the heaviest device, an eight ounce krinkov device that functions as a dwell time booster on centerfire rifles. Adjustments don't have the same kind of repeatable precision that a click adjustable or marked barrel tuner, so I typically first adjust it with my torque calibrated hand, then have to test it to see if it's dialed in.

If it isn't dialed in correctly, the result is a real mess, much worse than a barrel with no weight. If it starts throwing crazy fliers, I'll check it and find that it has loosened.

For me, the better, more care-free option is a thread protector held on with an O-ring. This also had the benefit of allowing easy cleaning of the muzzle and crown.


It isn't a flash hider, but I've also used heavy rubber doughnuts forced into the barrel. https://www.ebay.com/itm/254509869537 These are so tight they stay put, but don't require a precise fit to the barrel the way a metal collar will so you can place them at different points along a contoured barrel.
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Old July 29, 2023, 12:11 PM   #16
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Quote:
My flash hider has symmetrical gas ports all around.
My Drill Sgt (in the 70s) would have you doing pushups for saying that!

The sloppy civilian market tends to use both terms interchangeably, but when the Army was instructing me, there was a clear difference and one that should not be ignored.

There is only one hole in a Flash HIDER, and that it where the barrel muzzle is.

If there are holes, slots, ports, or vents, it is not a flash hider, it is a flash suppressor.

If the slots, holes, ports, or vents are angled, or only located on one side (such as the top) then its is a muzzle brake, or compensator of some kind.
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Old July 29, 2023, 12:22 PM   #17
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Sir yes sir!

Doing the pushups...



-TL

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Old July 29, 2023, 01:38 PM   #18
tangolima
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Originally Posted by zukiphile View Post
I've used muzzle devices to tune rimfire rifles, but not centerfire.



On 22lr barrels, I don't use a crush washer. I use an O-ring or a hose gasket. The hose gasket is thicker and may permit a larger range of adjustment, but O-rings probably provide as much range as I've ever needed.



The most pronounced result was from the heaviest device, an eight ounce krinkov device that functions as a dwell time booster on centerfire rifles. Adjustments don't have the same kind of repeatable precision that a click adjustable or marked barrel tuner, so I typically first adjust it with my torque calibrated hand, then have to test it to see if it's dialed in.



If it isn't dialed in correctly, the result is a real mess, much worse than a barrel with no weight. If it starts throwing crazy fliers, I'll check it and find that it has loosened.



For me, the better, more care-free option is a thread protector held on with an O-ring. This also had the benefit of allowing easy cleaning of the muzzle and crown.





It isn't a flash hider, but I've also used heavy rubber doughnuts forced into the barrel. https://www.ebay.com/itm/254509869537 These are so tight they stay put, but don't require a precise fit to the barrel the way a metal collar will so you can place them at different points along a contoured barrel.
Thanks for the info. Finally someone has tried similar things.

Muzzle device (still tired from the pushups) approach for threaded barrels. Non-threaded barrels with wear steel collars or rubber dampener. Rubber parts, o rings or dampener, make me hesitate because of the heat from firing. Rimfire is no problem.

Weight distribution determines the barrel's natural frequency. The tuner changes the frequency by changing weight distribution. Heavier tuning piece dominates more so it is more effective but also more sensitive. I'd rather it be less sensitive and don't mind having to make bigger adjustments. So the collar will not be too big.

The rubber dampener may work differently. The material is lossy so it attenuates (dampens) certain modes of vibrations in addition to changing the frequency.

-TL

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Old July 29, 2023, 08:10 PM   #19
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Rubber parts, o rings or dampener, make me hesitate because of the heat from firing.
For centerfire, you could use peel washers and shim sets.
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Old July 30, 2023, 01:25 AM   #20
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Rubber parts, o rings or dampener, make me hesitate because of the heat from firing.
Rubber is a general term, and covers everything from rubber tree sap to the stuff formulated to take high temps. IF you get your gun hot enough to actually soften or melt the "rubber" you're A) using the wrong grade of rubber, and B) shooting waay too much at one time!
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Old July 30, 2023, 09:37 AM   #21
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tangolima
I don't do factory ammos, except.22lr, and even that I stick to one particular make and model. I have my own steps to develop a load. I am not changing that. The tuner is just a final polish, which will probably cost 20 extra rounds. If it helps at all, I will do it.
All I was saying is that barrel tuners need constant tuning. Any time you open a new brick of rimfire ammunition, canister of powder, brick of primers, or box of bullets for your hand loads, you're going to need to test your tuner. They are not a set and forget accessory to your rifle.

Here is a guy doing the same thing you're talking about with a self timing brake: https://youtu.be/wXxSySAw4E0

Here is an argument against tuners: https://youtu.be/NvzU1HiCKj0
This guy shoots F-Class and while some of his comments wont apply in this situation, some will. I'm neither for or against tuners, I said I believe they work.

Browning and Winchester both had the BOSS tuner at one time, but they had to be constantly adjusted every time your average hunter bought a box of ammo for deer season. They also didn't really improve an average deer hunters chance of success, and since most people didn't understand the purpose of the BOSS they thought they were ugly and undesirable. So the BOSS simply went away after a short time.
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Old July 30, 2023, 10:13 AM   #22
tangolima
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Thanks. I believe I have watched the clip and agree to his points. That's why I don't want to invest with real money for a tuner product.

When I handload I tend to stay with what combination that work good enough. However I have found it more and more difficult to practice due to shortage. I have to constantly switch to make use of what is available. As a final polish to my load, an improvised tuner may still work. 20 rounds extra to find the tuning position is the rule.

22LR I usually buy 500 rounds boxes. I will see how it goes. If I only need to retune every 250 or 500 rounds, no problem. Actually the first experiment is going to be metal collar on my old faithful marlin 81. I am doing about 1 moa at 100yd with Aguilar ultra extra hv. Any improvement I will be jumping with joy. It has perforated soda cans at 150 to 175 yd. I hope tuning improves the hit rate. The tube magazine hanging under the barrel doesn't make things easy. I will need to modify the metal collar to fit.

-TL

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Old July 30, 2023, 10:23 AM   #23
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Lot or batch testing your .22 lr will probably increase your hit percentage more than tuning your barrel.
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Old July 30, 2023, 10:38 AM   #24
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That doesn't ride well with my cheapskate philosophy. I can't throw away "substandard" lots.

-TL

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Old July 30, 2023, 04:20 PM   #25
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44AMP said,"Browning BOSS system. Look it up. I've never used one, but people say it works. Also be aware it was made for sporting rifles not benchrest guns."

There was also an outfit called QUE that made a gadget that was for all practical purposes as BOSS. I was about to order one when they disappeared. A friend had one on a Ruger #1 that wouldn't shoot worth spit and the QUE made a big difference in the way that rifle shot. Near as I could tell it worked exactly like the BOSS. Guess browning sued them out of existence.
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