Flux pure lead for Black Powder?

[Darth AkSarBen]

Just waiting for the 1853 Enfield to arrive, and bought a LEE lead pot and a few molds. I understand the importance of using pure lead for this mini balls to work properly flaring out the skirt. What I am unsure of is adding a tiny bit of bee's wax to the melted lead for flux, or is it really necessary?

Do you flux 100% pure lead?

[Old Stony]

I always flux the lead before casting. Perhaps this is just from the fact that I pick up soft lead, but never know for sure how pure it is. Fluxing doesn't hurt a thing and only takes a minute, so I just consider it as helping to insure I am getting all the inpurities out of the lead that I can'

[ConRich]

It is my understanding that fluxing will allow tin and antimony to combine with the lead which then becomes an alloy. This is not what you are looking for, you want pure lead.

It is also my understanding that without fluxing those unwanted metals will float to the surface where they can be removed leaving only pure lead in the pot.

Rich

[mehavey]

ALWAYS flux/stir before/while casting -- be it pure lead or an alloy.
It will clean up/carbonize an incredible amount of garbage that you can scrape off with a spoon and discard

... leaving shiny metal behind.




Tip: Get that Minnie mould hot before casting using a hotplate** and pour the lead from about a 1/4" from the sprue plate to allow air to escape. You'll leave airpocket voids in base of the hollow cone otherwise.

**

[Darth AkSarBen]

Thank you all for your sage wisdom and pictures. Truly appreciated. I could also heat the mould over a flame as well (burner) I suppose. I figure getting the mould good and hot will prevent too quick of a set of the molten lead. You want it to be hot and then finally cool at the spur to "chop off" and I let it sit in the mould for many seconds so that it does solidify and it also transfers heat to the mold as well.

[Pahoo]

I could also heat the mould over a flame as well (burner) I suppose.

It is important to heat up the mold but take care as to not over heat. Let the surface of the casts tell you what it needs. I also flux and again, you can tell the difference by the appearance of the molten surface. The Lyman casting book is a great reference. ….

Have fun and;
Be Safe !!!

[Hawg]

It's hard to get the mold temp just right for those big minies. Too cold and they wrinkle or don't fill out. Too hot and they look frosted. I use a lot of frosted ones.

[Darth AkSarBen]

What is a good substance to use for fluxing? Bees wax? activated charcoal? Something else?

[mehavey]

For top ladle/dipper casting...

- small beeswax chunk
- 50/50 Lyman stick lube (pea-sized lump)
- candle wax chunk

[Old Stony]

I always have a beeswax candle handy, and just stick one end into the hot lead for a second. It melts immediately and just use a spoon or ladle to push the liquid down through the lead.

[Dufus]

And if you are using a bottom pour pot, use sawdust. Put enough in the pot to keep the metal covered with it to keep oxidation down to a minimum.

[maillemaker]

I do not believe there is much, if any, benefit to fluxing pure lead. There are no impurities to get out of the lead. You will notice that an oxide layer forms on the surface of the melt. This is normal and there is nothing much you can do about it. "Flux", like beeswax, will slow down the formation of the oxide layer, and for a few moments the surface of the melt will appear shiny like a mirror. But the wax soon burns off and then the oxide layer forms again. You can scrape this away over and over and over again; all you are doing is exposing fresh lead to oxidize.

I have heard that some people like to put things like kitty litter on top of their melt to limit the amount of lead exposed to the air and thus oxidizing. I don't bother - I just let an oxide layer form and leave it. I typically use a bottom pour pot. With a ladle, you will want a ladle with a submerged spout.

Steve

[mehavey]

I do not believe there is much, if any, benefit to fluxing pure lead

.If you are bottom pouring, that may be so.

If you are ladle-dipping, it is extremely important -- both for keeping crud out of the pour,
and for keeping the dipper spout clean for sprue plate contact

[Darth AkSarBen]

Intersting, Steve, and thanks! I was just talking to a long time friend on the phone yesterday, Jim, who has been casting, reloading some 40 years. His opinion was that the flux was for the mixing of alloys, such as tin and antimony into the lead. Lead oxides and crud form on the top and need to be skimmed off, sort of like slag. He also said there is no direct advantage to fluxing a pot of pure lead, but is useful in mixes.

The little LEE dipper I have is 1, a bit small, and 2, not able to really get under the crap too well. It is handy at skimming the top "rusty" looking stuff off and into an aluminum pie place lined with heavy aluminum foil.

I have the smaller LEE melting pot that you have to dip out the lead and has a dial to adjust the heat setting - 110 volt. I also have a small LEE dipper and in the mail today is a RCBS dipper that looks to be a bit more substantial for pouring 400 to 530 gr Minie' balls. My LEE mold is a single aluminum and is supposed to throw a 500gr bullet but several are 530 gr. My Lyman is a 460gr mold with the detachable hollow base plug at the bottom.

[maillemaker]

.If you are bottom pouring, that may be so.

If you are ladle-dipping, it is extremely important -- both for keeping crud out of the pour,
and for keeping the dipper spout clean for sprue plate contact

Even when ladle-pouring, I don't think there is much benefit. You will be scraping and scraping and scraping. All you are doing is losing lead.

What you need is a ladle with a submerged pour spout. This keeps the dross on top of the melt in the ladle, while allowing the pure molten lead to run out the spout uncontaminated.

Such a ladle looks like this:





What you don't want is one of the ladles that looks like this:



These ladles simply pour dross first.

When I ladle pour with my Lyman ladle, I just plunge through the dross. The ladle bowl fills up with melt, with the dross staying on top.

His opinion was that the flux was for the mixing of alloys, such as tin and antimony into the lead. Lead oxides and crud form on the top and need to be skimmed off, sort of like slag. He also said there is no direct advantage to fluxing a pot of pure lead, but is useful in mixes.

I don't know if there is even any benefit to fluxing alloys. Some people claim yes, some no:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/arch.../t-101687.html

When I cast alloy, it is unknown wheel weight lead for plinking ammo, and since I have no idea what the composition was to start with, I don't worry about what it is at the end, either.

Evidently linotype used by printers would, over time, lose hardness due to oxidation and would have to be refreshed by adding additional tin or antimony.

The little LEE dipper I have is 1, a bit small, and 2, not able to really get under the crap too well. It is handy at skimming the top "rusty" looking stuff off and into an aluminum pie place lined with heavy aluminum foil.

I would ditch the Lee dipper for an RCBS or Lyman dipper with a submerged spout.

Steve

[Hanshi]

Pure lead is, well, pure and not an alloy that needs any mixing. I use to flux alloy I used to cast pistol bullets but eventually stopped doing even that. I never flux "pure" lead.

[mehavey]

Fluxing cleans up incredible crap... and even top dippering that clean-up lasts 25-30 dipping cycles before fluxing to clean up stuff clinging to the ladle/dipper itself

The only thing that gets scraped/tossed out at that point is carbonized ash.

[J.G. Terry]

We melted down some stick-on wheel weights sometime back. It was necessary to flux that melt many times to get the crap out of the lead. That lot of wheel weights was nasty. These were not the clip on weights. The stick-on's made decent projectiles. The purpose of fluxing this unalloyed lead is to clean out junk-oxides and the like. These, like the clip on wheel weights are becoming extinct.

[Darth AkSarBen]

I got in a RCBS dipper yesterday (Tuesday 8-29) and tried it out that night. Unfortunately, it got so clogged up that I could not cast full bullets, and finally plugged up entirely. The whole inside and outside became coated with crap. Was this because of lack of fluxing? On a scale of 1-10 with 10 being best, I give the RCBS about 1.5 at best. Only able to do a few bullets. The LEE skimmer/ladle was actually able to mould a couple bullets at the end.

Lead too hot? No flux? I have a notion to drill out the pour hole a bit bigger so it does not plug up so badly.

[J.G. Terry]

I've found that casting with unalloyed lead more heat is needed. I'd suggest running up the temperature of the lead. What you describe sounds like what happens when the dipper is too cold. When the dipper gets up to temperature all that plugged up stuff goes away. Also, what caused the half bullets may be that the mold was not hot enough. Dip a corner of you mold in the molten lead-corner only. Pre-heat the mold to get up to casting temperature. Sounds like everything is too cold. Another thing that happens is to have oil in the mold. Bullets come out wrinkled.

Addendum: The the insert or plug for the hollow base needs to be up to temp also. It takes time to get all this going in the right direction. All this is in my experience.

[Darth AkSarBen]

I'll increase the temp. The mould that would not cast full bullets was because the lead was literally dripping into the spur hole, not flowing. I kept the mould over a low burner on the stove to heat up. Right after that, using the LEE dipper it molded 2 perfect bullets.

Yes, I heated up the plug for making the hollow base as well, and generally once the lead if poured in there, after trimming off the hardened excess at the spur, I leave it in the mold for several seconds so that the heat transfers to the mould.

Are Lyman dippers a bit better than RCBS?

[ConRich]

I agree with Terry, it sounds like you need to get EVERYTHING a bit hotter, FWIW my pot is set at 750*.


Rich

[J.G. Terry]

The gummed up ladle comes from being too cold. Ditto bouncing off the sprue plate. This is common symptoms of not enough heat. ConRich and I do exactly the same thing to get good runs of roundballs and Minnies etc. I hope your lead is not contaminated with zinc. If so, you gotta mess on your hands.

Also, cutting the sprue off too early will give you weight variations. You can see lead pulled in as the sprue is cooling. Cutting the sprue too early would account for your weight variations. That build-up has a purpose.

Leave your ladle in the melted lead until it pours. The build-up inside will melt away. The Lee ladle is made of sheet metal and heats up quickly. Not so with the cast iron ladles no matter who makes them. More heat.

[Hawg]

Yeah way too cold. I like Lee presses and dies and their molds but RCBS and Lyman make much better dippers. I also like the Lyman minie ball mold better than Lee.

[maillemaker]

Yup, dipper too cold. I cast at around 850F.

I agree with Hawg on all points.

Lee minie ball molds tend to gall terribly between the core pin and mold halves.

Steve