The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Art of the Rifle: Bolt, Lever, and Pump Action

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old April 14, 2018, 08:11 PM   #1
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
1891 Argentine 7.65X53

I have acquired from my dad and from my grandfather and great uncle numerous weapons over the years. Most of them are nothing special other than who they belonged to. A Model Winchester 63 pump 22 with the wear/rust imprint of my grandfathers hand on the receiver for example. The latest is my dad's Argentine Mauser. It is in fine shape, semi-sporterized and was wearing a tip-off 3X Weaver 6B. The Weaver has found a new home on my 336 Marlin Texan, they are period correct together or close and look good together as well.

So, anyway, my dad hunted the Argentine 1891 mostly with open sights before the rigged up Weaver. I am returning the rifle to open sight configuration and I found the original rear sight and am reinstalling it. I have some ammo for it and just picked up some more. I plan to get dies and reload for it as well. I plan to load down quite a bit. I know these 1891s are not super strong but this rifle is pretty cherry condition and my dad hunted it up into the 80s so I have no worries for the structural condition. No need for maximum loads still, just enough to whack a deer at open sight ranges.

Any suggestions on dies? Preferred bullets, loads? I was thinking 180 grains around 2,000 fps. Anyone else still hunt these old Argentine Mauser rifles?

J
3Crows is offline  
Old April 15, 2018, 07:55 AM   #2
oldscot3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: texas
Posts: 940
Most of the published load data you find will be suitable for your`91. Factory ammo and load data are almost always taylored for "the weakest link" (no offense intended). It's us `09 owners who want to go up for our stronger actions that find a lack of info.

I have a stock of 180 grain Hornady round nose bullets that I found cheap somewhere, they work well at modest velocities. I couldn't tell you if Hornady still makes them or not, round nose bullets are out of fashion these days it seems. Frankly, I suspect any basic "cup and core" bullet will work fine for your puposes. I also use Sierra and Speer bullets and my scoped `09 is capable of very fine accuracy.

For dies I always use Redding or RCBS; either should do. The 7.65 is easy and straight forward to load for. Brass might be a little spendy, see if you can find Privy.

BTW 2000 fps is 30-30 level; it will certainly work as many `94 Winchester have proved, but you can do better with an Argy.
oldscot3 is offline  
Old April 15, 2018, 08:15 AM   #3
oldscot3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: texas
Posts: 940
One more thing... my rifle loves IMR 4064. Yours may be be different, you'll just have to try it (but that's the fun anyhow).
oldscot3 is offline  
Old April 15, 2018, 09:31 AM   #4
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
Thanks Oldscot, been doing some digging too. It seems I have underestimated perhaps what I can load an 1891 at. Still, I have no need to push the envelope with it as I have several modern hunting rifles if I need hotter performance. Maybe 180 grain at 2400 fps range sound right, of course I will use load data and not just guess, loading to the lower end of recommended loads.
3Crows is offline  
Old April 15, 2018, 11:58 AM   #5
T. O'Heir
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 13, 2002
Location: Canada
Posts: 9,920
This is out of my old Lyman book. Note that the 7.65 Argie uses a .311" bullet. Same as a .303 Brit.
Bullet Diameter: .311" to .313"
Max case length: 2.105"
Trim-to: 2.100"
Max OAL w bullet: 2.970"

150 grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
IMR3031 40.0 2512 44.0 2739
IMR4064 41.0 2331 46.0 2710
IMR4895 41.0 2392 46.0 2732
IMR4320 43.0 2457 48.0 2747
IMR4350 45.0 2197 50.0* 2515
H380 46.0 2531 51.0 2747
4831 48.0 2109 53.0* 2380
Accuracy Load: IMR4895 46.0

180 grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
IMR3031 38.0 2288 42.0 2531
IMR4064 40.0 2298 44.0 2551
IMR4895 40.0 2304 44.0 2551
IMR4320 42.0 2040 47.0 2666
IMR4350 44.0 2150 49.0* 2463
H380 45.0 2364 50.0* 2544
4831 47.0 2049 52.0* 2320
Accuracy Load: IMR4895 41.0 2370 fps

215 grain Jacketed
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
IMR3031 34.0 2000 38.0 2178
IMR4064 36.0 1988 40.0* 2197
IMR4895 36.0 2036 40.0 2227
IMR4320 40.0 2159 44.0 2336
IMR4350 41.0 1960 46.0* 2212
H380 42.0 2092 47.0 2304
4831 46.0 1988 51.0* 2188
Accuracy Load: IMR4895 40.0

155 grain Cast w. gas check Lyman mold #311466(not for use in rifle with over .311" barrels)
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
Unique 12.0 1628 15.0 1869

205 grain Cast w. gas check Lyman mold #311299
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
Unique 10.0 1330 13.0 1461
2400 20.0 1715 24.0 1934

214 grain Cast w. gas check Lyman mold #311284 Or #311290(213 grain bullet. .311" only)
Powder Start Vel. Max. Vel.
Unique 9.5 1278 12.5 1492
2400 19.0 1633 23.0 1879
IMR4227 22.0 1715 26.0 1941
Accuracy Load: 2400 19.0
'*' indicates a compressed load.
Use 180 grain data for 174 or 175 grain jacketed bullets. Woodleigh makes a 215 RN. Not cheap though. $38.99 per 50 at Midway. Currently on back order though.
__________________
Spelling and grammar count!
T. O'Heir is offline  
Old April 15, 2018, 12:44 PM   #6
McShooty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2012
Location: Northern Missouri
Posts: 453
I am not sure what "semi-sporterized" means. Was the barrel shortened from the original 29.5 inches? And was the original military stock shortened, or was a new sporter stock used?

The action is not as strong as a Model 96 or 98, but it is strong enough for the 7.65 cartridge which is loaded to about 46,000 cup, or so. The main thing is that the 91 bolt does not have the safety lug that later Mausers have, and it offers the shooter less protection from expanding gases of a burst cartridge case.

I have a sporterized Argentine with original barrel shortened to 24." It carries the original military stock shortened to match the barrel. Mine was made by DWM while earlier ones were made by Ludwig Loewe. Both are of excellent quality.

There are four factory loads available for this cartridge. Two are from Prvi Partizan (PPU) one is from Hornady, and one from Norma (price out of sight). One of the PPU loads is a 180-gr soft point and it gives 2559 fps from a military length barrel. From my 24" bbl it gives 2413 fps. The other PPU load is a 174-gr fmj that gives 2462 fps. The Hornady is a 150-gr soft point that is marketed by Graf and Sons and comes in a box under their label. This load gave an amazing 2723 fps from my 24" sporter. Group size (50 yds) was uniform and in the range of 1.0-1.5 inches. The Hornady gave me the smallest group of 0.60 inch. Thus, it seems the performance is entirely equivalent to the .300 Savage and just a hair short of the .308 Winchester. In other words, great for medium game.

Last edited by McShooty; April 15, 2018 at 12:51 PM. Reason: spelling correction
McShooty is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 09:55 AM   #7
98 220 swift
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2015
Location: Perryville MO
Posts: 411
I have a original 1891. It has the long 29" barrel. I shot a small buck with it few years back. I used a sierra 150 gr sp. It worked fine. I would have to look up the load. It was a light load. My rifle really likes it. If I do my part it will put 4 out of 5 rounds in 1.5" at 100 yards. For some reason it or me always throws one out of every group. I decided to take the oldest rifle I own deer hunting. Mine was made in 1892.
98 220 swift is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 12:54 PM   #8
Mike Irwin
Staff
 
Join Date: April 13, 2000
Location: Northern Virginia
Posts: 39,794
The way I've seen it used is that semi-sporterized generally means that the stock has been cut back, the upper handguard discarded, and possibly the sights altered, or a scope mount added.

A full sporterization is a lot more involved.

The 7.65x53 is a really nicely balanced sporting cartridge for US hunting, especially on the east coast. In power it's in the .300 Savage class.

It was relatively popular in the US prior to World War II. Winchester offered it for a short time in the Model 70, I THINK a few were chambered in the Remington Model 30, and it was a standard chambering for the Winchester Model 54.
__________________
"The gift which I am sending you is called a dog, and is in fact the most precious and valuable possession of mankind" -Theodorus Gaza

Baby Jesus cries when the fat redneck doesn't have military-grade firepower.
Mike Irwin is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 07:41 PM   #9
oldscot3
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2007
Location: texas
Posts: 940
Quote:
If I do my part it will put 4 out of 5 rounds in 1.5" at 100 yards. For some reason it or me always throws one out of every group. I decided to take the oldest rifle I own deer hunting.
I have a model 96 Swede that does the exact same thing... its once marvelous barrel is now tired.
oldscot3 is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 08:14 PM   #10
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by McShooty View Post
I am not sure what "semi-sporterized" means. Was the barrel shortened from the original 29.5 inches? And was the original military stock shortened, or was a new sporter stock used?

The action is not as strong as a Model 96 or 98, but it is strong enough for the 7.65 cartridge which is loaded to about 46,000 cup, or so. The main thing is that the 91 bolt does not have the safety lug that later Mausers have, and it offers the shooter less protection from expanding gases of a burst cartridge case.

I have a sporterized Argentine with original barrel shortened to 24." It carries the original military stock shortened to match the barrel. Mine was made by DWM while earlier ones were made by Ludwig Loewe. Both are of excellent quality.

There are four factory loads available for this cartridge. Two are from Prvi Partizan (PPU) one is from Hornady, and one from Norma (price out of sight). One of the PPU loads is a 180-gr soft point and it gives 2559 fps from a military length barrel. From my 24" bbl it gives 2413 fps. The other PPU load is a 174-gr fmj that gives 2462 fps. The Hornady is a 150-gr soft point that is marketed by Graf and Sons and comes in a box under their label. This load gave an amazing 2723 fps from my 24" sporter. Group size (50 yds) was uniform and in the range of 1.0-1.5 inches. The Hornady gave me the smallest group of 0.60 inch. Thus, it seems the performance is entirely equivalent to the .300 Savage and just a hair short of the .308 Winchester. In other words, great for medium game.
My father removed the bayonet holder and upper parts of the stock as was common with hunters purchasing these for inexpensive hunting rifles. He cut the stock back and relocated the forward sling mount. He left the barrel full length at nearly 30 inches. Later he mounted a Weaver 3X 6B scope on tip-off mounts to clear the 90 degree bolt.

I removed the Weaver 3X-6B and mounted on my period correct Marlin Texan 336, removed the tip-off mounts, reinstalled the rear sight and am preparing the rifle to go to the range. I have some new PPC 180 grain ammo.

The rifle was purchased 1961 at Montgomery Wards store as my dad was the manager. I imagine he had a discount and applied it. The rifle is in fine shape, deep blueing and the Argentine crest is removed as many if not most are.

My dad killed two deer with the Mauser at one shot. They were standing exactly in line and he only saw the one. Good thing my uncle had a tag and had not used it.

3C

Last edited by 3Crows; April 16, 2018 at 08:20 PM.
3Crows is offline  
Old April 16, 2018, 08:17 PM   #11
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
Mr. O'Heir, thank you for the load data, I will study it. Thanks all for the information.

3C
3Crows is offline  
Old April 17, 2018, 12:39 PM   #12
hdbiker
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 19, 2012
Posts: 168
I remember many, many years ago looking at one of those 1891 Argentine 7.65X53 rifles at a small country gun shop. It was in pristine condition the wood blueing and bore. It was 100.00 but not knowing anything about the 7.65X53 ctg. I passed. Needless to say I wish I would have bought it !!!. hdbiker
hdbiker is offline  
Old April 17, 2018, 02:25 PM   #13
McShooty
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 4, 2012
Location: Northern Missouri
Posts: 453
"The rifle was purchased 1961 at Montgomery Wards store as my dad was the manager. I imagine he had a discount and applied it. The rifle is in fine shape, deep blueing and the Argentine crest is removed as many if not most are."

As mentioned, Montgomery Ward and other department stores sporterized Argentines during the heyday of importing surplus military rifles in the 50s and 60s. I had thought they always shortened the barrels but apparently not.
McShooty is offline  
Old April 17, 2018, 03:38 PM   #14
Sure Shot Mc Gee
Senior Member
 
Join Date: January 2, 2012
Location: Minnesota
Posts: 3,505
Use to have 1891. Bought the rifle from Kliens Sporting Goods in Chicago when I was a 17 yr old lad. Sold it eventually. As I recall the only ammo I could get at the time was Norma 150 gr steel jacketed soft points. (spendy bullets for this country boy they surely were) My rifle having a quick twist & full length battle field barrel it wasn't sporterized by any means. Its muzzle blast was very different from all other hunting center fires of those times. Very loud & extra sharp.
I never found out what its twist rate was? No matter.
Its original battle field barrel sights were spot on. Rolled quite a few running deer with that sloppy bolt rifle. As told its performance was that of a 270 win. And I believe it surely was. As too this day I have no rifle of those I now own that slammed into the side of a deer as hard as that 7.65 did. "Assume down range performance & hole maker.
__________________
"JUST A OLD DEPLORABLE THAT'S IRREDEMABLE."
Sure Shot Mc Gee is offline  
Old April 18, 2018, 11:39 PM   #15
tahoe2
Senior Member
 
Join Date: August 13, 2011
Location: Seattle area
Posts: 661
7.65x53

I always love it when Argy's are brought up, the 7.65x53 is a wonderful cartridge and capable of almost any North American game (maybe just a bit light for Grizzly's). But I wouldn't hesitate taking Elk , Caribou, or Moose at reasonable ranges (200 or less) with 180 grn pills. I have 3 of them, all accurate @ 2" or less @ 100 yds, and a pleasure to shoot !! 2 are over 100+ years old.
tahoe2 is offline  
Old April 23, 2018, 12:28 PM   #16
doceaux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 119
7.65 Arg. scout rifle project.

Just converted a 91 Calvary carbine into scout rifle. When I bought it was set into an older fajen sportrized stock, Found scout mount to fit on the rear sight currently have weaver 1x4 as scope but thinking about putting Burris 2 3/4 on because I like the courser cross hairs. will post pics soon.
doceaux is offline  
Old April 23, 2018, 07:08 PM   #17
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by doceaux View Post
Just converted a 91 Calvary carbine into scout rifle. When I bought it was set into an older fajen sportrized stock, Found scout mount to fit on the rear sight currently have weaver 1x4 as scope but thinking about putting Burris 2 3/4 on because I like the courser cross hairs. will post pics soon.
Where does one get the scout scope mount you mention? Thanks. 3C
3Crows is offline  
Old April 23, 2018, 09:45 PM   #18
doceaux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 119
scout scope mounts

S&K scope mounts google it and go to their site www.scopemounts.com
doceaux is offline  
Old April 24, 2018, 05:04 PM   #19
doceaux
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 7, 2007
Location: Texas
Posts: 119
timmey trigger for model 91

does anyone have one on your 1891?
doceaux is offline  
Old April 25, 2018, 06:46 PM   #20
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
Quote:
Originally Posted by doceaux View Post
S&K scope mounts google it and go to their site www.scopemounts.com
Thanks, I ordered one. Hopefully some day it will show up so I can complete the dream my dad had for the rifle, a scope and a straight bolt.
3Crows is offline  
Old May 12, 2018, 07:28 AM   #21
3Crows
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 24, 2017
Location: Wichita, Kansas
Posts: 217
The scout scope mount shipped. Thanks for the tip on it!

I have also remounted the ladder sight so I guess off it may go again but only if I find a scope that looks correct with the rifle. Nothing gaudy or flat black or tactical but obviously will need good eye relief to work forward mounted on the old fella.

3C
3Crows is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 10:57 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2018 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Contact Us
Page generated in 0.08051 seconds with 9 queries