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Old April 17, 2018, 09:00 AM   #26
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That range video is a whole special level of negligence! I remember an ever sadder story about a kid who reached for the brass and shot his dad in the head. Whenever I take out new shooters, this is what I go with:

Teach them the four basic firearms rules:
- All guns are always loaded.
- Never let the muzzle cover anything you are not willing to destroy.
- Keep your finger off the trigger until your sights are on the target.
- Be sure of your target and what is beyond it.

Set appropriate expectations:
- You may get hit with hot brass. If that happens, put the gun on the table before going after it. Generally, it'll sting, maybe leave a red mark, but hot brass won't kill you. Also, if a female is coming along, I will flat out tell them to wear something with a high neckline so brass doesn't go down their shirt. My indoor range has a date night, and I always cringe when I see ladies dressed up nice for their 'man' with low cut shirts.

Stay close, and pay attention
- Stay close enough to them that if that happens, you can grab their gun arm and make sure it doesn't go where it shouldn't. I have had to do this to prevent someone from muzzling someone down the line. It is a little humiliating for the shooter, but I really don't care, they learn a lesson that could have been much worse!
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Old April 17, 2018, 09:12 AM   #27
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Originally Posted by Glenn E. Meyer View Post
It's like cars. I've had 4 serious accidents that I survived (but not without serious injuries) due to stupidity and liquor on the other drivers' fault. How do we stop that?
Short of legalizing a particular act, you'll never completely eliminate a particular crime. If enforcement is adequate but a particular crime is still a problem, then punishment needs to be increased until that crime is no longer a problem (even though it may still exist).
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Old April 17, 2018, 09:22 AM   #28
Glenn E. Meyer
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It is unfortunate that we propose solutions before the fact that probably won't occur. Research has shown that the vast majority of gun owners have no training at all. Now many might read up and have common sense but quite a few don't, it seems.

Mandate training - that starts a tremendous RKBA debate.
NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens
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Old April 18, 2018, 10:40 AM   #29
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I think we should work harder to police our own.
I think Theohazard is right. I see long time shooters regularly who think because they been doing this "all my life" they are perfectly safe handling guns. Some of these same guys are careless and ignorant of the laws of safety, and too arrogant to be teachable.

I think we help educate the ones we can, advocate training whenever possible, lead by example and stay situationally aware.

If being stupid, careless, or negligent was against the law, we could not build jails fast enough.
"Any fool can criticize, condemn and complain and most fools do." Benjamin Franklin

Last edited by K_Mac; April 18, 2018 at 10:53 AM.
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Old April 18, 2018, 11:56 AM   #30
Bartholomew Roberts
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Mandate training - that starts a tremendous RKBA debate.
I don’t know any gun owner who opposes voluntary training of some kind. I know a lot who oppose mandatory training; because historically it is often used to restrict gun ownership as opposed to teach. And of course, any mandatory education offers opportunity for indoctrination too.

Like anything else though, if a community doesn’t self-regulate, some outside force may step in. So, I was hoping to inspire some discussion on how we can better manage that voluntarily.
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Old April 18, 2018, 11:59 AM   #31
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The world is full of idiots. There are thousands of videos online of people 'failing' at what should be obvious no brain activities.
Part of what fuels this idiocy is that fewer people believe in RULES, REGULATION, PRACTICE. For example, the vast majority of people know what is lawful and unlawful to do while driving. We all know that if we discover we need to make a turn and we are not in the turning lane, its UNLAWFUL to make that turn just because it is clear, right? Much less unlawful to stop in your current lane, and try to wait until the traffic clears, just so you dont have to drive further to get to your destination. Or speeding, we know thats unlawful, but few people obey speed limits. Stopping for the flashing red lights of a school bus, we all know thats unlawful, yet lots of people ignore it and pass a school bus that is stopped with the flashing red lights. Then they whine and complain when they get a ticket for their driving infractions.

Thats just one area of todays idiots. Those same people, might be able to tell you all the rules of handling a firearm, but if they cant be bothered to follow rules while driving, how can we expect them to follow rules when handling a gun?

People do wrong things because they dont expect consequences. Maybe if we saw these people being unsafe with their guns while at the range, they might get the hint if the rangemaster slapped them upside the head?
"Every man alone is sincere; at the entrance of a second person hypocrisy begins." - Ralph Waldo Emerson
"People demand freedom of speech as a compensation for the freedom of thought which they seldom use." - Soren Kierkegaard
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Old April 18, 2018, 11:43 PM   #32
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I don't think there is any reason to demand mandatory gun training. For one, the major causes of death with guns are suicides and homicides, not gun accidents.
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Old April 19, 2018, 08:11 AM   #33
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How many of us are required to break some of the rules to clean your gun? Just buying a gun that doesn't require you to pull the trigger to clean the thing would stop tons of nd.
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Old April 19, 2018, 08:40 AM   #34
Bartholomew Roberts
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Pulling the trigger to disassemble a firearm for cleaning doesn’t require you to break the four rules. It just requires you to pay extra attention to rules 1, 2, and 4 while keeping your finger off the trigger until those conditions are satisfied.

A 5 gallon bucket of sand, a kevlar dryfire target, even an old tube TV screen you don’t mind sacrificing all make convenient backstops for disassembly or dryfire. The sand bucket and tube TV will even stop rifle rounds.
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Old April 19, 2018, 09:13 AM   #35
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keeping your finger off of the trigger is a good start.
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Old April 19, 2018, 10:27 PM   #36
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I don't think training is the most important part - it's discipline.

Send a careless person or someone who lacks basic discipline to training, they straighten out in the training of course. Once there is no authority watching they are waving a muzzle around "oh it's not loaded" "oh the safety is on".

Give a careful person who has discipline a piece of paper along with their first gun purchase and they will religiously follow safe practices without any such training.
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