Innovative Heiser blowback semi auto's

HighValleyRanch · April 9, 2018, 10:28 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqsPoIPx4jA

Just found these on youtube. A very innovative design with the recoil rod and spring on top, single stack, fixed barrel to the frame and blowback design. They started with a single shot shotgun pistol, but now are making these semi's. Very low bore axis due to the higher recoil spring. I like their innovative thinking and commend them for breaking the mold.

I hope they come out with a thin single stack 9mm with a fixed barrel blowback design in the future. They said they were starting the bigger calibers and then working their way down. So far they look very reliable.

Oh and notice the grip safety on the front (looks like an extra trigger)

HighValleyRanch · April 9, 2018, 10:12 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08xDWhLn9E

Only .8" wide, 25 oz. 5 plus one and 7 round magazine available. Low recoiling,
and very accurate due to the fixed barrel design.

Interesting that no one has comments about it.
Too innovative, ugly, unknown, unproven, what???

photographix · April 10, 2018, 12:08 AM

Interesting design. I notice a couple things:

1. The trigger looks like it has an extremely short throw. I wonder what the take-up length is like?

2. Hard to tell how big it is from the photo as there is nothing to compare scale, but it looks like a person with a big thumb could flip the safety to "fire" and release the magazine simultaneously.

3. The slide's rail design seems to be a reversal of what is found on most pistols.

Jim Watson · April 10, 2018, 12:11 AM

Recoil spring over barrel goes back to Clement autos, also seen on several S&Ws, including the obscure .35 and the scarce .32, as well as a series of .22s.

Seems they must LIKE getting kicked by teeny little guns.

vba · April 11, 2018, 09:49 AM

I think it is a very interesting pistol. Barrel is more aligned with hand/wrist and a very slim. Could see other designs emanating from the same principles.

HighValleyRanch · April 11, 2018, 10:05 AM

People have always said that it would be hard to make a blowback design with a caliber more than .380 because of the strong recoil spring needed. But somehow this gun proves that wrong. The video shows that it is very easy to rack.

So somehow they've overcome the necessity for a strong recoil spring. Wonder how they did that?

Jim Watson · April 11, 2018, 10:08 AM

Short service life?

HighValleyRanch · April 11, 2018, 10:13 AM

I saw one video where they had put 6000 rounds through the .45. But no mention of how many times they had to replace the recoil spring.

Lohman446 · April 11, 2018, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Too innovative, ugly, unknown, unproven, what???

Too unproven: This one is self explanatory

Too innovative as follows:

I don't like the placement of the safeties. I can live with the thumb safety but prefer it simply not exist - at least it goes in the "correct" direction and is roughly in the right place. That front "safety" thing is really going to screw with holster designers. If we must have a safety replicating the function of a beaver tail safety, as I assume that is what this one does, it might as well be a classic beaver tail safety. I could live with and appreciate that in a pocket pistol

I would prefer a heel release magazine for a pocket pistol that is going to be substantially different then my belt gun anyways. I have never really understood the concept of quick magazine changes on a pocket pistol - do people who carry pocket pistols actually carry spare magazines?

I would prefer 9MM just for my ease of use in regards to keeping ammunition around but its a weak argument and can appreciate the argument for .45 in this type of pistol.

I think we get nit-picky about weights but 25 ounces is getting up there for a gun of that size.

johnwilliamson062 · April 11, 2018, 10:59 PM

Quote:

do people who carry pocket pistols actually carry spare magazines?

...yes.
My guess is the 25 ounces for a gun that size is part of how they tackled the recoil. I'd bet a huge chunk of that is in the slide.

**4V50 Gary** · April 11, 2018, 11:15 PM

Pocket pistol with a punch.

kozak6 · April 12, 2018, 05:53 AM

Some of the very first semiautomatic pistols had the recoil spring above the bore.

Compared to the other subcompact .45's, it's .1-.2" thinner except weighs something like 4-10 oz more in pistols otherwise comparable in size.

Plus it's very expensive. And completely unproven. And from a company that mostly makes novelty pistols.

Cheapshooter · April 13, 2018, 05:41 PM

Leave it up to Heiser to put a Hi-Point on a diet, and increase the price by $750!!!

**JohnKSa** · April 15, 2018, 12:18 AM

Quote:

I saw one video where they had put 6000 rounds through the .45. But no mention of how many times they had to replace the recoil spring.

Or if it was all through the same pistol.

HighValleyRanch · April 15, 2018, 08:26 AM

yeah but who actually puts 6000 rounds through their carry pistol to verify if it' reliable!

**JohnKSa** · April 15, 2018, 02:15 PM

Probably almost no one. But I think most of us are glad that manufacturers do much more extensive testing before they put a carry gun on the market.

HighValleyRanch · April 15, 2018, 02:54 PM

Quote:

But I think most of us are glad that manufacturers do much more extensive testing before they put a carry gun on the market.

Being a well known company thats been around for years does not guarantee that new models are not going to have some problems. I don't want to name names, but you know they are out there!

Lexspeed · April 15, 2018, 07:43 PM

Sounds like a Frommer Stop that Femaru in Hungary brought to market in 1912 as the 12M. Definitely an innovative design back in 1912. I had the delightful opportunity to hold and work on one last week.

BeornLS · April 16, 2018, 09:53 AM

I owned one of these for a few days before trading it away. Never got a chance to shoot it though. I can tell you what I thought about it if you're interested and my single biggest reason that I did trade it off.

My single biggest complaint is that the thumb safety was simply too small. Yes, of course it could be activated, but my primary concern was that in a 'panic' situation that the safety would be simply too hard to activate with the edge of my thumb. It should have been more along the size of a compact 1911 safey, Sig, S&W M&P safeties, etc. The safety on the Heizer was just tiny in comparison and the worse thing was it didn't stick out from the frame far enough.

Again, of course in holding this and looking at it..yeah I could flip it off. My concern is just that with even hundreds of hours of training that it would still simply be too hard to get a purchase on when you were pumped full of adrenaline, or maybe had sweaty/bloody hands, etc.

So, that was my biggest complaint about it. Other than that, I will say that it is a pretty nifty little gun overall. Build quality seems very nice, there were some machining marks here and there but nothing major. Very thin gun, would be easy to holster carry although it may have been a bit awkward to pocket carry.

As I said, I never shot it but the guy who had it before me said he put around 50 rounds through it with no issues. I did note the the Heizer manual said to shoot 200 rounds as a break in period on them.

These are just my thoughts and opinions, if they could make that safety bigger I think it would improve this firearm by leaps and bounds. And again, maybe I'm just being picky about the safety but I know it was just too small for me and I actually have smallish hands myself.

Oh btw, the other safety in front under the trigger guard was a bit odd feeling at first, but you can get used to it. I will say that the sucker has to be down all the way before that trigger will move.

My $.02 for free.

BeornLS · April 16, 2018, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by photographix

Interesting design. I notice a couple things:

1. The trigger looks like it has an extremely short throw. I wonder what the take-up length is like?

2. Hard to tell how big it is from the photo as there is nothing to compare scale, but it looks like a person with a big thumb could flip the safety to "fire" and release the magazine simultaneously.

3. The slide's rail design seems to be a reversal of what is found on most pistols.

The mag release is actually the round button behind the trigger guard. That other lever in front of the safety is the slide release. The small metal block you see in the slide is actually where the slide catch touches the slide. I believe Heizer designed that part to be replaceable in case of premature wear on the slide at that contact point.

photographix · April 16, 2018, 05:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BeornLS

The mag release is actually the round button behind the trigger guard. That other lever in front of the safety is the slide release. The small metal block you see in the slide is actually where the slide catch touches the slide. I believe Heizer designed that part to be replaceable in case of premature wear on the slide at that contact point.

Oh, I thought that was the hinge pin for the grip safety. It's more clear in other pictures I just looked at, especially on Heizer's with non-silver frames.

dontcatchmany · April 16, 2018, 08:41 PM

I like the concept of a small 45 acp for pocket carry. I pocket carry a Shield 40 and have pocket carried a Sig P938. The Shield currently has a 9mm barrel in it.

I like 45 acp a lot, but research data seems to agree that the 40 S&W and 9mm is better from a short barrel (3.5" to 4")than 45 acp.

Still researching, but have not found any data on 45 acp from such a short barrel.

I would maybe get one (dang I got too many handguns now) if the PKO 45 proves to have the velocity and penetration and other values that I would like.

Not going to spend the money on a weapon that will not serve my needs and has not proven its real world reliability. However I will keep researching.

And why, oh why, am I even considering another gun? LOL!

Good thread OP!

hdwhit · April 17, 2018, 12:32 PM

Quote:

HighValleyRanch wrote:
People have always said that it would be hard to make a blowback design with a caliber more than .380 because of the strong recoil spring needed. But somehow this gun proves that wrong.

High Point has been making very reliable (and very ugly) 9mm blowback pistols for years. I'm sure if the Germans ask politely, the guys from Ohio will set them a place at the table.

Minorcan · April 17, 2018, 12:56 PM

Never heard of it till now. Looks very interesting.It kind of reminds me of the Walter CCP. The MSRP is $899 or $900 which is a bit high for it compared to proven competitors. I would be interested in firing one but probably wouldn’t buy until more information on reliability is out there. I would consider if it were priced competitively though.

Buckeye! · April 18, 2018, 08:39 AM

Makarov,Bersa 380's ,Remington R51 & Hi-point..
Are the blow backs that I have owned or spent some time with ...

The Remington had a bunch of stoppages...( was not mine )
All my Bersas ran great ...
Makarov's always ran great .. Even with the cheap steel case ammo
Hi-points have always ran wonderful... Crazy reliable..

I have seen videos on the Walther CCP .. But not shot one

April 9, 2018, 10:12 PM	#2
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,065	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F08xDWhLn9E Only .8" wide, 25 oz. 5 plus one and 7 round magazine available. Low recoiling, and very accurate due to the fixed barrel design. Interesting that no one has comments about it. Too innovative, ugly, unknown, unproven, what??? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

April 11, 2018, 10:05 AM	#6
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,065	People have always said that it would be hard to make a blowback design with a caliber more than .380 because of the strong recoil spring needed. But somehow this gun proves that wrong. The video shows that it is very easy to rack. So somehow they've overcome the necessity for a strong recoil spring. Wonder how they did that? __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

April 11, 2018, 10:13 AM	#8
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,065	I saw one video where they had put 6000 rounds through the .45. But no mention of how many times they had to replace the recoil spring. __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

April 11, 2018, 11:15 PM	#11
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,829	Pocket pistol with a punch. __________________ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt. *Molon Labe!*

April 13, 2018, 05:41 PM	#13
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Leave it up to Heiser to put a Hi-Point on a diet, and increase the price by $750!!! __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

April 10, 2018, 12:08 AM	#3
photographix Member Join Date: January 6, 2013 Location: New Mexico Posts: 43	Interesting design. I notice a couple things: 1. The trigger looks like it has an extremely short throw. I wonder what the take-up length is like? 2. Hard to tell how big it is from the photo as there is nothing to compare scale, but it looks like a person with a big thumb could flip the safety to "fire" and release the magazine simultaneously. 3. The slide's rail design seems to be a reversal of what is found on most pistols.

April 10, 2018, 12:11 AM	#4
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Recoil spring over barrel goes back to Clement autos, also seen on several S&Ws, including the obscure .35 and the scarce .32, as well as a series of .22s. Seems they must LIKE getting kicked by teeny little guns.

April 11, 2018, 09:49 AM	#5
vba Senior Member Join Date: October 26, 2008 Posts: 357	I think it is a very interesting pistol. Barrel is more aligned with hand/wrist and a very slim. Could see other designs emanating from the same principles.

April 11, 2018, 10:08 AM	#7
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,535	Short service life?

April 12, 2018, 05:53 AM	#12
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	Some of the very first semiautomatic pistols had the recoil spring above the bore. Compared to the other subcompact .45's, it's .1-.2" thinner except weighs something like 4-10 oz more in pistols otherwise comparable in size. Plus it's very expensive. And completely unproven. And from a company that mostly makes novelty pistols.

April 15, 2018, 08:26 AM	#15
HighValleyRanch Senior Member Join Date: July 15, 2005 Posts: 4,065	yeah but who actually puts 6000 rounds through their carry pistol to verify if it' reliable! __________________ From the sweet grass to the slaughter house; From birth until death; We travel between these two eternities........from 'Broken Trail"

April 15, 2018, 02:15 PM	#16
JohnKSa Staff Join Date: February 12, 2001 Location: DFW Area Posts: 24,971	Probably almost no one. But I think most of us are glad that manufacturers do much more extensive testing before they put a carry gun on the market. __________________ Do you know about the TEXAS State Rifle Association?

April 15, 2018, 07:43 PM	#18
Lexspeed Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2015 Location: Southern IL Posts: 152	Sounds like a Frommer Stop that Femaru in Hungary brought to market in 1912 as the 12M. Definitely an innovative design back in 1912. I had the delightful opportunity to hold and work on one last week.

April 16, 2018, 09:53 AM	#19
BeornLS Member Join Date: October 26, 2005 Location: The Lone Star State Posts: 52	I owned one of these for a few days before trading it away. Never got a chance to shoot it though. I can tell you what I thought about it if you're interested and my single biggest reason that I did trade it off. My single biggest complaint is that the thumb safety was simply too small. Yes, of course it could be activated, but my primary concern was that in a 'panic' situation that the safety would be simply too hard to activate with the edge of my thumb. It should have been more along the size of a compact 1911 safey, Sig, S&W M&P safeties, etc. The safety on the Heizer was just tiny in comparison and the worse thing was it didn't stick out from the frame far enough. Again, of course in holding this and looking at it..yeah I could flip it off. My concern is just that with even hundreds of hours of training that it would still simply be too hard to get a purchase on when you were pumped full of adrenaline, or maybe had sweaty/bloody hands, etc. So, that was my biggest complaint about it. Other than that, I will say that it is a pretty nifty little gun overall. Build quality seems very nice, there were some machining marks here and there but nothing major. Very thin gun, would be easy to holster carry although it may have been a bit awkward to pocket carry. As I said, I never shot it but the guy who had it before me said he put around 50 rounds through it with no issues. I did note the the Heizer manual said to shoot 200 rounds as a break in period on them. These are just my thoughts and opinions, if they could make that safety bigger I think it would improve this firearm by leaps and bounds. And again, maybe I'm just being picky about the safety but I know it was just too small for me and I actually have smallish hands myself. Oh btw, the other safety in front under the trigger guard was a bit odd feeling at first, but you can get used to it. I will say that the sucker has to be down all the way before that trigger will move. My $.02 for free. Last edited by BeornLS; April 16, 2018 at 10:18 AM.

April 16, 2018, 08:41 PM	#22
dontcatchmany Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 2010 Posts: 460	I like the concept of a small 45 acp for pocket carry. I pocket carry a Shield 40 and have pocket carried a Sig P938. The Shield currently has a 9mm barrel in it. I like 45 acp a lot, but research data seems to agree that the 40 S&W and 9mm is better from a short barrel (3.5" to 4")than 45 acp. Still researching, but have not found any data on 45 acp from such a short barrel. I would maybe get one (dang I got too many handguns now) if the PKO 45 proves to have the velocity and penetration and other values that I would like. Not going to spend the money on a weapon that will not serve my needs and has not proven its real world reliability. However I will keep researching. And why, oh why, am I even considering another gun? LOL! Good thread OP!

April 17, 2018, 12:56 PM	#24
Minorcan Senior Member Join Date: September 15, 2015 Posts: 379	Never heard of it till now. Looks very interesting.It kind of reminds me of the Walter CCP. The MSRP is $899 or $900 which is a bit high for it compared to proven competitors. I would be interested in firing one but probably wouldn’t buy until more information on reliability is out there. I would consider if it were priced competitively though.

April 18, 2018, 08:39 AM	#25
Buckeye! Senior Member Join Date: September 1, 2008 Posts: 849	Makarov,Bersa 380's ,Remington R51 & Hi-point.. Are the blow backs that I have owned or spent some time with ... The Remington had a bunch of stoppages...( was not mine ) All my Bersas ran great ... Makarov's always ran great .. Even with the cheap steel case ammo Hi-points have always ran wonderful... Crazy reliable.. I have seen videos on the Walther CCP .. But not shot one

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