Lusting after another Beretta

[15plus1]

Hi folks,

I'm looking to replace my Bersa 380cc with something a little higher quality and am pretty sure I have settled on a Beretta 85 Cheetah.

Specifically I am eying the BB model, simply because I like the look of the rounded trigger guard over the combat style F and FS models. They also seem to be better priced.

Tldr version:
My questions are:
In what way, if any, are the newer 85 models superior to the older and are they worth the $300 price difference? Am I "missing out" on any meaningful features looking into older models?

I'm not overly concerned with it being overly large for the caliber, the current micro 9s don't really flip my switch nearly as much as the 85 has.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 15plus1

[The BB models] also seem to be better priced.

Are you basing this upon real-world data or the Fjestad Blue Book of Gun Values?

Just FYI, I haven't examined the latest edition of the Blue Book, but their prices for older Beretta 85s in previous editions were waaay below the real-world going rate. What the book says should be a $225-$275 gun is actually a $450-$550 gun everywhere I look. Either their data is bad or I need to figure out where these $275 pistols are hiding.

A search of completed 85BB auctions on Gunbroker reveals selling prices in the $450-$525 range for 90%+ examples.

Take note that the market has been swamped with cheap Israeli police surplus 84BBs for several years now. However, there seem to be very few 85s in the same surplus pipeline—about a 1:20 ratio—and prices reflect this. DON'T extrapolate the price for an 80%± 85BB based on prices for 80%± 84BBs!

The cheapest 85s I've seen during the last 2 years or so have been 85F's.

Originally Posted by =15plus1

In what way, if any, are the newer 85 models superior to the older and are they worth the $300 price difference?

The price difference isn't $300 but I've already covered that.

The advantage of the newer models from a carry standpoint are more durable Bruniton finish, a more rust-resistant chrome-lined bore, and a decocker for more idiot-proof DA carry.

One word about the latter feature, as you don't seem very familiar with these pistols: The F models have a false detent between the SAFE/DECOCK and FIRE positions that some shooters have mistaken for non-decocking safety. IT'S NOT! The pistol should NOT be carried this way; the lever should ALWAYS be pushed through to the SAFE/DECOCK position! However, once you understand this, there's really no functional difference between the F and FS models. The FS just has improved decocker operation.

The main advantage of the older pistols is that they can be carried "cocked and locked" if that's the way you roll. The curved trigger guard and glossy blue finish are also nice, but arguably not necessary for carry, and the bluing shows holster wear worse than the Bruniton. They sure look pretty though. That must be why I own an 84BB.

The 85B also shares the rounded trigger guard and pretty finish. The 85B has a trigger-actuated firing pin block like the BB, but fewer slide serrations and smooth grips (although these can be changed), and it lacks dot-and-post sights. All that being said, the 85B seems very scarce; the pistol is far more common in BB, F, and FS guise.

[EDIT] Forgot that the no-suffix 85 was not produced; info edited out.

[tallball]

I like my model 84 very much. The Beretta 380's are good pistols.

[15plus1]

Hi Chris,

Real world, I believe. My ffl currently stocks new 85fs at just under 800, I have seen 85bbs go for the mid to late 500 range. Admittedly, I am giving a rough estimate so $200 is perhaps more accurate

I have seen the current 85f offerings as surplus and the price is tempting, but I'm not sure I want to buy a pistol that may have been dragged through the Gaza Strip behind a jeep sight unseen. I was planning to ask if anyone had any experience with those in a separate thread.

The decocker/safety was one attraction of this pistol as it seems to be similar in operation to the 92fs, but in a more intuitive location. I am perfectly fine with a da/sa acton and not personally a fan of cocked and locked. It's mainly why I don't carry my 1911 and was planning to sell it off for this purchase. That and it just doesn't suit me as a platform.

*forgive any typos I have thumbs and am on a phone

[15plus1]

Hi tallball,

I am giving the 84 series a look as well, 13 and 1 does look like a good option for about 1/4" increase of grip size, but I'm not sure yet

[Cosmodragoon]

I don't know if single-stack is important to you but you also might want to check out the Zenith MC-14. Supposedly, it's a hybrid between the Beretta 84 and the Browning BDA that takes the Beretta grips, the Browning holsters, and can use magazines from either. I think it looks really sharp with the rosewood Beretta grips in the video review below.

BTW, he does a side-by-side comparison with one of the Bersa models about halfway through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O2ISQxWA7Tw


Here is the product page:

https://zenithfirearms.com/product/girsan-mc-14-black

Notice the price tag compared with the older Beretta 84/85.

[tallball]

My experiences with military surplus and police turn-in guns has been 100% positive, including my Beretta 84. It has holster wear, but functions perfectly. They tend to be carried around a lot and not fired much. If I wanted a Beretta 85 and could get a surplus one, that's what I'd do. I think my 84 cost a little over $300, IIRC.

[Ibmikey]

I have a Beretta 84 BB that I happened to pick up reasonably before it had even been fired. Nice pistol, shoots nice, too big for me to carry looks better than the plastic grip models with it's checkered walnut grip panels but when I carry it is a Sig 238 or 938, easier to carry, reliable and better sights.

[hemiram]

I recently bought one of the 85F's that were Israeli surplus, and it's in great shape. It has a couple of small nicks in the frame finish and some marks on the top of the barrel from firing. I would grade it about 92-95%. It's tight and the grips are in really good shape for plastic ones being that old. For $410 I can't complain at all, compared to what a new one costs. So now I have an 84BB and the 85F. Best .380's ever made, IMHO. I own 5 Israeli surplus guns. All were fully functional out of the box, had minimal wear and the only thing I've done to any of them is change the recoil springs on the 3 Tanfoglio TA/90 guns, as all three of them seemed to be on the weak side. I have no fear of buying an Israeli surplus guns, they've all been great shooters and they all look good too!

[lamarw]

I also have a couple of 85F's. The quality is certainly built in. Beautiful pistols and a joy to shoot. The factory Beretta wood grips are a nice addition over the plastic ones.

[15plus1]

Classic Firearms currently has some trade-ins listed for 399, which seems great.

Does anyone have any experience with this company and buying surplus from them? Like I said, I can probably deal with a few scuffs that can be touched up.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 15plus1

[The $300 is] real world, I believe. My ffl currently stocks new 85fs at just under 800, I have seen 85bbs go for the mid to late 500 range.

Aha, you're comparing new to used! That explains it.

Originally Posted by 15plus1

Classic Firearms currently has some trade-ins listed for 399, which seems great.

Does anyone have any experience with this company and buying surplus from them?

Classic has a very good reputation, and they were very helpful and quick the last time I ordered from them, although this was admittedly about 5 years ago.

Originally Posted by hemiram

I own 5 Israeli surplus guns. All were fully functional out of the box, had minimal wear and the only thing I've done to any of them is change the recoil springs...

FWIW my Beretta 84BB developed problems with the slide failing to lock back because some knuckleheaded Israeli (I assume) armorer installed an F/FS slide stop in it, which rounded off the BB slide stop notch. Beretta changed the slide stop design between the BB and F; the F/FS slide stop will physically fit on a BB or earlier gun, but its width and engagement angle is wrong, hence my problem. I fixed it by installing the correct slide stop and having the rounded-off portion of the slide ground back to the correct angle by a gunsmith.

My gun, however, seems to be the exception rather than the rule. Also, you can't experience the reverse of my problem with an F or FS, because the BB and earlier slide stop is too wide to physically fit in the slide stop notch of the newer guns.

[kmw1954]

I have wanted one since the 1980's but never acquired one. It's now next on my list to purchase. Even ahead of a new wheel gun. Last purchase was an XD Mod2 4.0 9mm for the wife. Next one is for me.

[carguychris]

I'm really tempted by one of those Classic Arms pistols despite the unsightly port-side import mark.

Why oh why do these deals always appear when my cookie jar is empty?

[Mastrogiacomo]

I consider myself fortunate...I have the black 84FS and the nickle 85FS...they are great guns...jump on them if you find any....

Laura

[15plus1]

Surplus 85f has been ordered. Went through a local shop so I have a little help evaluating it when it comes in.

Supposed to be rated very good or 90%+.

Having only really bought new before, what is to be expected wear-wise and what's problematic?

I am figuring some holster wear is a given, but as long as the firing pin bounces a pencil and the hammer and safety behave as they should, that's it, right?

[kmw1954]

I have purchased 2 used hand guns in the past year. 1 is a lightly used Springfield XD Mod 2 and the other is Taurus PT92C that was built in 1990. Both looked new and had been well taken care of.

So long as the barrel isn't shot out or all pitted and everything fits tight. Maybe find some medium factory target loads to start with. Shoot one thru it using the mag and check for function. Then load up 3-4 and repeat. It should be just fine.

I just seen one today and if I had the spare cash it would be coming home.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 15plus1

Having only really bought new before, what is to be expected wear-wise and what's problematic?

Normal items to check on basically any used auto pistol:

• Extractor tip is sharp and extractor pivots smoothly and readily, but with reasonable resistance
• Slide moves back and forth smoothly with hammer cocked
• Mag release button works smoothly and magazines readily drop free
• Barrel locks firmly in position with slide in battery
• Slide stop and slide stop notch are not noticeably rounded off

There are some Beretta Series 81 specific tips in the following linked thread. Take note of what I wrote about the frame-battering problem at high round counts.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...d.php?t=573394

The link also includes a brief write-up of how to remove the magazine disconnect if the pistol has one and you don't want it; however, the 85 uses a slim metal bar and a small hairpin spring with a kink at one end, rather than the large curly-Q spring used in the 84. (Beretta's engineers are masters at designing complicated and wacky-looking springs. ) However, the system is similarly easy to remove – simply remove the starboard grip panel, maneuver the spring out with needlenose pliers, and lift out the bar.

FWIW the mag disconnect was and is an individual option; some recent-production FS models have a "WILL NOT FIRE/FIRES WITHOUT MAGAZINE" disclaimer in the slide legend, but an older Series 81 pistol will have NO external indication whether it has the disconnect or not. In order to know, you have to test it – drop the magazine, double-check that the chamber is clear, point the muzzle in a safe direction, and pull the trigger with the decocker/safety in the FIRE position. "CLICK" = no disconnect; trigger swings free and nothing else happens = disconnect.

One last item that's really more of an FYI warning: the Series 81 is similar to most SAO pistols—and unlike most DA/SA designs—in that the slide will NOT move with the decocker/safety (or thumb safety) in the SAFE/DECOCK position. This is normal and is how the pistol is intended to operate.

[15plus1]

Thanks folks,

Should be able to check it out thoroughly and will, hopefully, be reporting back soon with glamour shots.

As a curiosity, chris, do the Berettas suffer from the same premature wear that Bersas do with respect to the slide stop? Bersa owners typically advise against releasing the slide with that lever due to contributing to wear and preventing slide lock back. As this gun will be replacing a Bersa exhibiting that exact issue, is this something to be aware of or watch for? My assumption was that the metallurgy on the Beretta would be significantly better.

[carguychris]

Originally Posted by 15plus1

As a curiosity, chris, do the Berettas suffer from the same premature wear that Bersas do with respect to the slide stop?

I'm not entirely certain but I've not heard of this being a common problem.

FWIW the Series 81 Manual on Berettaweb states on Page 14 that the slide is released by thumbing the slide stop ("Press the slide catch to close the slide, and load the chamber...") rather than by tugging the slide rearward. This edition of the manual addresses the F series.

I attribute the slide stop problem with my particular pistol to mismatched parts.

[Ibmikey]

15 plus1, Check your new Beretta and advise how the Classic pistols are import marked, with an unobstrusive marking or a Century Arms billboard way to ruin a firearm. Thanks

[15plus1]

I'm not entirely sure that it was ordered from Classic, my dealer said he was ordering it through his own distributor. However, the sample picture I was shown did seem to have the same laser engraving on the dust cover as the Classic photo.

Will let you know for sure.

[15plus1]

Today is new gun day.

The 85F came in today and is pretty darn pristine. Very light finish wear on the corners of the left side of the slide and a bit on the top left of the rear sight. All in all, a lot better than I was expecting.

All safety functions appear to work, I see now what you mean about that false detent in the safety application. While it will stop the slide from cycling, it most certainly does not stop the trigger from dropping the hammer.

It would appear that the previous carrier did not enjoy the magazine safety, as it is not functional, which is fine with me.

Importer marks are actually much less intrusive to the appearance than I have seen, about an inch long and nicely centered under caliber designation on dust cover.

All in all, pretty happy so far. Will have to get to the range tomorrow and see how she performs.

[tallball]

Good choice! I have gotten to the point where I have little interest in buying brand-new firearms. Buying a perfectly functional surplus pistol for half the price makes a lot more sense, IMHO.

[15plus1]

Unfortunately, I do have some preconceptions about used guns due a relative who liked to fiddle with his, and then pawn them off on some unsuspecting dodo when he went too far with the fiddling and filing. I had a hell of a time selling some of the guns for his wife after he died.

While I am aware that he was a special case, that nervousness is kind of built in at this point.

This experience might be helping to change that preconception.