WWII Ithaca M-37 Help.......

JDog23 · February 22, 2012, 01:20 AM

My step-dad gave me an old Ithaca 12 Ga. Model 37, along with several old guns he had and was no longer using. I took it in to get the ejector fixed on it. I was told that the marking on the gun indicated that it was a military issue Shotgun. A search on the Serial # told me that it was made in 1941. I sent some pictures to Walt Snyder, and he confirmed that it was a Military issue model. But I'm having trouble figuring out what it might be worth. I would say it grades out as "Good", it's fully function, has matching numbers on the receiver and barrel, but only has the 30" barrel. I'm sure it would likely only be wanted by a miltiary firearm collector, but any thoughts on what the value may be on this shotgun? Thanks much.

30-30remchester · February 22, 2012, 10:59 AM

As I understand your post, the barrel is 30" long and serial numbers to the reciever? If so from my research and experence, you have a procured gun, bought off the rack, and stamped with ownership markings. These guns were used as training guns for air crews and similiar anti aircraft gunners. While these are interesing, I have found they bring little more than a standard sporter model in the same condition. Purpose built riot guns and trench guns are an entirely different animal all together. These purpose built contract guns were ordered from the factory and saw actual use in a combat, and thus these guns bring much higher prices. When the war was in its begining the need for shotguns for training was understood, but all gun manufacteres were contracted to build combat guns for ther government. Thus the procurement officers would simply go to the nearest hardware stores and buy the shotguns they needed for training, send them to the armourer for recording and marking with ordanence stampings. Ithica built few riot or trench guns for the war effort as the goverment had awarded them other contracts. The few of these produced are quite rare and valuable.

JDog23 · February 22, 2012, 01:28 PM

Yes, the serial numbers match on the barrel and receiver. I actually double checked the barrel last night, and it only seemed to be 28" though. If I understand what you are saying.....you think that the gun may have just been picked up at a hardware store, marked with the military stamps after buying it off the store rack, and then just passed around from there? That certainly makes sense when you explain it. That only adds to my confusions though. The 2 local gunsmiths that I talked too said the markings indicated that the gun was made and issued with 2 different barrels, the standard barrel (that I have) and also a trench barrel (that I don't have). But I can't find anything that tells me which of this all may be true. Any other thoughts?

30-30remchester · February 22, 2012, 06:36 PM

I have studied antique guns and military guns for decades but I am FAR from an expert. I have read alot and have quite a library on military guns and I have never heard of any early Ithica being issued with 2 barrels. In these early Ithica's, barrels werent interchangable. Each barrel had to be fitted by the factory to a particular reciever. Could this have actually been a riot or trench gun that was later, after the war, fitted with a sporting barrel by the factory and serial numbered to the gun then?????? One way to determine trench gun configureation is, the buttstock swivel. Does your buttstock have a swivel for a sling. If so is it a military type? If you would like to photo this gun and email me the pics I will try to help. If interested you can send me a PM and I will give you my email address.

Tom Doniphon · February 22, 2012, 09:48 PM

Your Model 37 could very well be a WWII Military contract shotgun rather than a procurement gun. Ithaca supplied a lot more long barreled shotguns to the Military during WWII than riot or trench guns.

If you care to supply the serial number of the gun, I can see if it is on the WWII Ithaca shipping records. The shipping records also contain barrel lengths so we may be able to determine if your barrel is the original length.

JDog23 · February 22, 2012, 10:06 PM

Sure. That would be awesome. I've found the year of the gun based on the serial number as 1941, but nothing as detailed as what you are talking Tom. The number on the Receiver and Barrel is 41646.

JDog23 · February 22, 2012, 10:12 PM

Here is a picture of most of the gun. And a picture of the markings on the top left-hand side of the reciver that the 2 gunsmiths told me were the military markings. I have yet to find out what they mean though. And one of the matching serail number on the barrel.

Tom Doniphon · February 23, 2012, 01:47 AM

I could not find your serial number in the shipping records. But some of the record copies are not legible, so it could still be there.

I also could not find many guns in the 41,000 serial number range like your's. But the ones I did find in that range were all 30" barreled Model 37s that were shipped to Springfield Armory in June or July of 1941.

The markings on your shotgun appear to be consistent with those found on WWII Model 37 Military shotguns. It's likely the real deal. But the story about the two barrels is a fabrication.

JDog23 · February 23, 2012, 08:54 PM

Hey Tom,
Thanks for checking on that stuff for me. Yes I did measure the barrel down the inside with a dowel rod and the bolt closed. Same as I have done for years. And the darn thing is 28" no matter how I look at it. So that obviously only adds to my confusion..... But you saw the pictures and everything looks right to you doesn't it? Any other thoughts as to what the heck this might be?

zippy13 · February 23, 2012, 09:23 PM

A 30-inch barrel can be cut to 28-inches -- after the war, all sorts of conversions were made to civilianize mil guns. Perhaps a close-up pic of the muzzle could be telling.

JDog23 · February 23, 2012, 09:56 PM

Sure I can do that. I don't know that I've seen any/many chopped and modified barrels in my time....so I don't really know what to look for. Here are a couple of pics of the barrel.

JDog23 · February 23, 2012, 10:58 PM

Here are a couple other pics of the gun, if it helps. Thanks everyone for you help so far. I'd feel relatively certain at this piont that it's a 1941 Militay Issue M-37 if it wasn't for this darn barrel length now. And I'd still love to find out what the marking on the receiver that idicate it's military actually mean.....

Virginian · February 24, 2012, 01:13 AM

A lot of you may not remember it, but there used to be a branch or department in the services that catered to providing sporting equipment for use, not purchase, by service people and their dependents. When I was a kid, a friend of mine's dad was a Captain in the Navy, and they called it Special Services as I recall. Not exactly what we think of today. I know they checked out shotguns and golf clubs from them, and I seem to recall they had some boats and canoes as well. Just about every decent sized base had a skeet and/or trap range. Some years later I came across a Remington 870 Trap with military markings, and the guy selling it told me it had been purchased by Special Services. Possibly your gun had similar origins.

southpaw02 · February 24, 2012, 09:01 AM

+1 on what the Virginian says. I remember reading some where that several sporting type guns were purchased for training purposes during the war.

I looked at the pictures of the barrel it does not appear to be cut down. If it was then it was done well. That said, the 2 on the barrel means modified choke so a 28" barrel is possible.

zippy13 · February 24, 2012, 11:45 AM

Measure at the muzzle, it there's a constriction (less than around 0.729) then the barrel's not been shortened. I don't know about a 1941 M-37; but, typically, you're more likely to find a mod choke on a 28-in barrel and a full on a 30-inch.

Yes, Naval Special Services provided many things. In my younger days, for a lot less than the typical range fee, service men could shoot a round of Skeet at NCTC Pensacola, and it included the shells.

30-30remchester · February 26, 2012, 06:59 PM

I just had a sit down with a premieer US military collector at a recent show. The subject of gunner training guns and trench guns was discussed at lenght. He says much misimformation abounds concerning US marked long barreled shotguns. He says the only guns used in gunner training was the Remington model 11's or the Savage model 720 semi auto's. Many long barreled shotguns, pump action, double barrels, and single barrels can be found with US property markings. These were not used in military training but instead were used for hunting in the US on military controlled ranges and hunting refuges. The guns could be checked out by military personel to hunt with on these reservers. This is the first I have heard of this but this guy is a TOP researcher and collector. After hearing this I dont recall seeing any photos of gunnery training except with the Remington and Savage auto loaders. Just thought I would share this with the forum.

February 22, 2012, 01:20 AM	#1
JDog23 Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 7	WWII Ithaca M-37 Help....... My step-dad gave me an old Ithaca 12 Ga. Model 37, along with several old guns he had and was no longer using. I took it in to get the ejector fixed on it. I was told that the marking on the gun indicated that it was a military issue Shotgun. A search on the Serial # told me that it was made in 1941. I sent some pictures to Walt Snyder, and he confirmed that it was a Military issue model. But I'm having trouble figuring out what it might be worth. I would say it grades out as "Good", it's fully function, has matching numbers on the receiver and barrel, but only has the 30" barrel. I'm sure it would likely only be wanted by a miltiary firearm collector, but any thoughts on what the value may be on this shotgun? Thanks much.

February 22, 2012, 10:59 AM	#2
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	As I understand your post, the barrel is 30" long and serial numbers to the reciever? If so from my research and experence, you have a procured gun, bought off the rack, and stamped with ownership markings. These guns were used as training guns for air crews and similiar anti aircraft gunners. While these are interesing, I have found they bring little more than a standard sporter model in the same condition. Purpose built riot guns and trench guns are an entirely different animal all together. These purpose built contract guns were ordered from the factory and saw actual use in a combat, and thus these guns bring much higher prices. When the war was in its begining the need for shotguns for training was understood, but all gun manufacteres were contracted to build combat guns for ther government. Thus the procurement officers would simply go to the nearest hardware stores and buy the shotguns they needed for training, send them to the armourer for recording and marking with ordanence stampings. Ithica built few riot or trench guns for the war effort as the goverment had awarded them other contracts. The few of these produced are quite rare and valuable.

February 22, 2012, 01:28 PM	#3
JDog23 Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 7	Yes, the serial numbers match on the barrel and receiver. I actually double checked the barrel last night, and it only seemed to be 28" though. If I understand what you are saying.....you think that the gun may have just been picked up at a hardware store, marked with the military stamps after buying it off the store rack, and then just passed around from there? That certainly makes sense when you explain it. That only adds to my confusions though. The 2 local gunsmiths that I talked too said the markings indicated that the gun was made and issued with 2 different barrels, the standard barrel (that I have) and also a trench barrel (that I don't have). But I can't find anything that tells me which of this all may be true. Any other thoughts?

February 22, 2012, 06:36 PM	#4
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	I have studied antique guns and military guns for decades but I am FAR from an expert. I have read alot and have quite a library on military guns and I have never heard of any early Ithica being issued with 2 barrels. In these early Ithica's, barrels werent interchangable. Each barrel had to be fitted by the factory to a particular reciever. Could this have actually been a riot or trench gun that was later, after the war, fitted with a sporting barrel by the factory and serial numbered to the gun then?????? One way to determine trench gun configureation is, the buttstock swivel. Does your buttstock have a swivel for a sling. If so is it a military type? If you would like to photo this gun and email me the pics I will try to help. If interested you can send me a PM and I will give you my email address.

February 22, 2012, 09:48 PM	#5
Tom Doniphon Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Posts: 27	Your Model 37 could very well be a WWII Military contract shotgun rather than a procurement gun. Ithaca supplied a lot more long barreled shotguns to the Military during WWII than riot or trench guns. If you care to supply the serial number of the gun, I can see if it is on the WWII Ithaca shipping records. The shipping records also contain barrel lengths so we may be able to determine if your barrel is the original length.

February 23, 2012, 01:47 AM	#8
Tom Doniphon Member Join Date: February 4, 2008 Posts: 27	I could not find your serial number in the shipping records. But some of the record copies are not legible, so it could still be there. I also could not find many guns in the 41,000 serial number range like your's. But the ones I did find in that range were all 30" barreled Model 37s that were shipped to Springfield Armory in June or July of 1941. The markings on your shotgun appear to be consistent with those found on WWII Model 37 Military shotguns. It's likely the real deal. But the story about the two barrels is a fabrication.

February 23, 2012, 08:54 PM	#9
JDog23 Junior Member Join Date: February 22, 2012 Posts: 7	Hey Tom, Thanks for checking on that stuff for me. Yes I did measure the barrel down the inside with a dowel rod and the bolt closed. Same as I have done for years. And the darn thing is 28" no matter how I look at it. So that obviously only adds to my confusion..... But you saw the pictures and everything looks right to you doesn't it? Any other thoughts as to what the heck this might be?

February 23, 2012, 09:23 PM	#10
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	A 30-inch barrel can be cut to 28-inches -- after the war, all sorts of conversions were made to civilianize mil guns. Perhaps a close-up pic of the muzzle could be telling.

February 24, 2012, 01:13 AM	#13
Virginian Senior Member Join Date: February 11, 2012 Location: Williamsburg, Va. Posts: 1,528	A lot of you may not remember it, but there used to be a branch or department in the services that catered to providing sporting equipment for use, not purchase, by service people and their dependents. When I was a kid, a friend of mine's dad was a Captain in the Navy, and they called it Special Services as I recall. Not exactly what we think of today. I know they checked out shotguns and golf clubs from them, and I seem to recall they had some boats and canoes as well. Just about every decent sized base had a skeet and/or trap range. Some years later I came across a Remington 870 Trap with military markings, and the guy selling it told me it had been purchased by Special Services. Possibly your gun had similar origins.

February 24, 2012, 09:01 AM	#14
southpaw02 Junior Member Join Date: November 28, 2009 Location: S.E. Va. CSA Posts: 14	+1 on what the Virginian says. I remember reading some where that several sporting type guns were purchased for training purposes during the war. I looked at the pictures of the barrel it does not appear to be cut down. If it was then it was done well. That said, the 2 on the barrel means modified choke so a 28" barrel is possible.

February 24, 2012, 11:45 AM	#15
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	Measure at the muzzle, it there's a constriction (less than around 0.729) then the barrel's not been shortened. I don't know about a 1941 M-37; but, typically, you're more likely to find a mod choke on a 28-in barrel and a full on a 30-inch. Yes, Naval Special Services provided many things. In my younger days, for a lot less than the typical range fee, service men could shoot a round of Skeet at NCTC Pensacola, and it included the shells.

February 26, 2012, 06:59 PM	#16
30-30remchester Senior Member Join Date: April 18, 2009 Location: mountains of colorado Posts: 977	I just had a sit down with a premieer US military collector at a recent show. The subject of gunner training guns and trench guns was discussed at lenght. He says much misimformation abounds concerning US marked long barreled shotguns. He says the only guns used in gunner training was the Remington model 11's or the Savage model 720 semi auto's. Many long barreled shotguns, pump action, double barrels, and single barrels can be found with US property markings. These were not used in military training but instead were used for hunting in the US on military controlled ranges and hunting refuges. The guns could be checked out by military personel to hunt with on these reservers. This is the first I have heard of this but this guy is a TOP researcher and collector. After hearing this I dont recall seeing any photos of gunnery training except with the Remington and Savage auto loaders. Just thought I would share this with the forum.