Anyone attend the 1999 IDPA national match?

Futo Inu · October 11, 1999, 04:45 PM

I see it was held Oct 1-3 near Walls, Miss.

Also, for IDPA buffs, would a Glock 21 or 30 with a .400 corbon barrel be allowed in Custom Defensive Pistol division? I assume yes (the caliber is specifically allowed in CDP - YET it says no barrels other than "factory configuration") - ?

Now, would the same gun be allowed in Stock Service Pistol, assuming no other modifications? If the answer is no, how is that fair/sensible when that's the only way to get that caliber, since they don't come from the factory, unlike .357sig, 'cept from a few 1911 makers? It really wouldn't violate the spirit of the maxim that IDPA is not an equipment race. Could a local club allow it if they wanted?

EAF · October 11, 1999, 08:53 PM

I was at the IDPA Nationals. It was a great match. All the COF's had you doing several things at once. Such as shooting at moving targets while moving.

As for your equipment question, I have this type of conversation every once in a while. "Let me allow this or that, it doesn't really bend the rules that much". The best one is "...but I'd use (put your favorite modification here) on the street". My answer is usually...that you have to put your foot down somewhere and that place won't make everyone happy. Call IDPA whatever you want, in the end it is a game and games have rules. The game where you can put anything you want on your pistol is IPSC. To play IDPA you have to "handicap" yourself by playing within the rules that someone in Arkansas wrote up. Alas, what you do a club level is up to you and the match director. At my club, we'd just put you in Enhanced Service Pistol.

Yikes! I just read what I wrote. A bit harsh, huh? Please don't take it personally.

EAF

Mike Spight · October 11, 1999, 09:49 PM

Futo:

Yeah, I was there too. A generally great course of fire and John Shaw's MISS Facility is fantastic.

IMHO, you'd have to shoot your Glock .400 CB in SSP. CDP is reserved for SA semi autos. ESP for SA or Selective (ala CZ-75, Witness, etc).

Local clubs are allowed some leeway in allowing variance from the equipment rules...you can't do it, however, in official state/regional/national matches.

I think by "factory configuration" the intent is a bbl that has identical external dimensions to the factory bbl. I don't think caliber matters. Anyway, it's a moot point, as again, Glocks normally shoot in SSP. The IDPA website rule book does, however, state that pistols suitable for SSP and ESP may be shot in other divisions. Bottomline, call/e-mail IDPA HQ...let them make the call.

Mike

Ricky T · October 12, 1999, 09:20 AM

Futo:
I was there too. It was lots of fun. EAF, also known as "Tactical Ponytail", shoot with me at our clubs in Atlanta. Mike Spight and I shot on the same squad. (Hi Mike, great to have met you and your wife). Learned a whole lot. I think Mike is right, your gun would be in Enhanced Service Pistol Class (ESP) but call IDPA just to be sure. I would let you shoot that gun in our club.
Ricky T

Mike Spight · October 12, 1999, 11:56 AM

Ricky:

Hey, good to hear from you! In retrospect, it was a lot of fun and I learned a great deal about the letter vs. the intent of rules.

Even thought I was sorely disappointed in my performance, Susan had a great time. Having her there to help paste targets, bring water, etc was great.

BTW, I still think "Attention Shoppers" with the three color coded flip cards was about the most un-realistic course of fire I've ever shot in my life...what you'd expect at an IPSC match, IMHO.

Best,
Mike

Futo Inu · October 12, 1999, 02:25 PM

Sounds like it was a real success.

Regarding my equipment question: Uhhmm, okay, thanks, I guess. The ONE division I thought sure such a pistol would work in was CDP. Now EAF says no, ESP only, while Mike Spight says SSP and ESP. EAF, you cannot be right, because larger calibers are not allowed in ESP, so I guess you're really saying that such a gun has absolutely no place in IDPA?

Now, Mike (or someone), please tell me then why the IDPA website specifically lists the Glock 20 and 21 and in their non-exhaustive list of example guns OK for CDP? The rules for CDP don't state anything about SA only (though I'm sure it's dominated by 1911s). And if G20 and 21 are on the list, why not the 29/30????? IDPA sounds like a great idea at first, because of the realism focus, but all the rules are not making any sense, and I'm getting very mixed answers to a basic question about the equipment rules, and I presume y'all have been involved for awhile (?). So how can I be expected to understand them? Obviously, one would want to eventually try to shoot at state, regional, or national matches, and I definitely don't want to waste my time getting good at a certain config, so I really need to know the answer that an official at a state, regional, or national match would give me. If I can't get definite answers to seemingly simple questions like this (not necessarily from you - I realize you're not the experts), then it's a real turnoff to participating at all. Well, I'll contact IDPA folks as Mike suggests. If your interpretation of "factory config" is correct (same external dimension), which is a very reasonable interpretation in my view, then you are correct, such a pistol WOULD BE allowed in SSP. Of course, it would also then be allowed in CDP, if for whatever reason you just wanted to shoot in CDP (I wouldn't).

Also, though I can see the reason for not allowing smaller calibers in CDP, what on earth is the rationale for not allowing larger calibers in ESP class? It seems that it would just handicap the shooter, but hey, if you want to use .45, etc. in ESP, then why not? If you really just wanted a challenge in that division, you should be able to use a hand cannon...

BTW, it seems that Mr. Bill Wilson certainly walks the walk, placing first in CDP. The same Bill Wilson, I presume?

[This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited October 12, 1999).]

Jack Straw · October 12, 1999, 03:29 PM

Ricky T & Mike S,

I'm also in the Atlanta area (Woodstock to be exact) and have often wondered if there are any sort of competitions going on around here. Where do you shoot and what other types of competition go on there? I've never shot in any sort of competition, but it is something I have a growing interest in.

Thanks,

Jack

Ricky T · October 12, 1999, 03:31 PM

Mike,
You're right on the Attention shopper stage. Kinda like IPSC/Lite. But didn't they put a disclaimer on that one, I thought they say that the stage was not a tactical exercise but an exercise in target ID. Anyway I agree with you. I really loved the shoot house stages. Are you on the IDPAOnelist mailing? You should read about all the bickering on who's gaming that stage, who shot it too fast, who was gaming the stages, etc. They said someone received a FTDR cause he shot it too fast. Last night at our indoor IDPA match we reshot two stages of the Nat. It was the last stages we shot on Saturday, can't remember the names, the one with the ammo can, and the one you have to shoot at two knife wielding attacking while retreating then do a head shot. I was a little disappointed in my low finish but I knew the competitions were very very tough. I gave it my best. I'm gonna be back next year. Hope to see you and Susan there again, if not sooner at another match.

Mike Spight · October 12, 1999, 03:32 PM

Fotu:

Yep...the same Bill Wilson. Oddly enough, during the first couple of years of IDPA, Wilson shot a Beretta 92 in SSP. Don't know how he did, but reportedly, very well.

Fotu, I don't have the IDPA Website up right now...as I haven't committed the equipment lists for weapons and leather to memory, I can't tell you anything for sure. Again, if IDPA is saying that you can shoot a certain type of Glock in CDP, then go for it. I was under the impression that only 1911 type SA pistols in calibers .45ACP, 10mm and .400 CB could shoot there (at least, that's all I've ever seen shoot there...anything else really isn't competitive, if winning is what you're interested in). If the website says you can shoot a Glock 21 or 23 in CDP, I'm sure you can.

BTW, I went to the website...you can also shoot the Glock 21 and 23 in SSP.

Again, I ONLY shoot SSP. I don't concern myself with the other classes at all. It's too much of a pain in the ass...I like to keep it simple and focus on SSP.

As to why you can't shoot anything bigger than .40 S&W or .41 AE in ESP, I don't have a clue as to what the rationale there is...probably because CDP exists for those who want to shoot .45s and .400s. ESP shooters can concentrate on pistols that have less recoil or something like that.

I know it's confusing...don't give up though...if you're interested, go to a local IDPA club, shoot the classifier and have fun. It just doesn't get any better than that!

Hope I didn't confuse the issue any more than it already was!

Mike

Ricky T · October 12, 1999, 03:32 PM

Futo,
Don't be too concern about what division your gun belong. Just shoot it and have fun while meeting new friends and hopefully learn something.

Mike Spight · October 12, 1999, 03:38 PM

Jack Straw:

Good to hear from you, but I'm in Leavenworth, KS...I shoot at the Bullet Hole in Overland Park with the KC Shooting Masters. Ricky T and EAF are in the 'Lanta area...I'm sure they'd be happy to link up with you and have you over to their club. Send them some e-mail and enjoy IDPA!

Mike

Futo Inu · October 12, 1999, 04:41 PM

Thanks. I think I'll forget about it and go with SSP.

Mikey · October 12, 1999, 07:01 PM

Mike Spight & Ricky T

Did either of you guys shoot the Championship Standards (Stage 6) on the range to the right of the original - the one set up to relieve the overcrowding? And if so, did you get to run through the right side setup (the one for tall people) with the exceedingly handsome S.O. who ran his half of the bay single handedly? That was me!

By the way, the stage with the colored cards was "adapted" by Tom Givens from the one we ran at the Tennessee Championships last year (which we adapted from another match) but our adaptation was a lot more tactical. We had it set up like a street gang robery of a convienience/grocery store and the colors represented the uniform smocks worn by the store personnel. The card drawn is the no-shoot and the primary reason for the scenario is non-threat I.D. practice. It can also be set up as a police type stage using the "color-of-the-day" scenario.

Futo,

You won't go wrong shooting the Glock "as delivered". The confusion about CDP vs ESP is based on power factor and use of non-stock accessories. The 400 Cor-Bon would be CDP not ESP and you would have to meet the 165 PF (no problem with Cor-Bon).

Mikey

[This message has been edited by Mikey (edited October 12, 1999).]

Mike Spight · October 12, 1999, 10:14 PM

Mikey:

No, I shot standards on the left side with all the butt ugly SOs

I looked for you over on stages 9, 10, & ll. I thought you'd said in your post that was where you'd be working, but I imagine they moved you folks around some.

My heartburn with the Attention Shoppers stage is based on the fact that we flipped the card over, drew and also had normal "no shoots" mixed in. I know the stage was based (very loosely) on Jim Cirillo's famous shoot when on the NYPD Stake Out Unit...only problem is, Cirillo was in the store with the clerk (blue smock, IIRC) for quite some time before the BGs made the biggest mistake of their sorry lives. It just seemed gamey or tricky to me. But, it's just my opinion, and I've been wrong plenty of times before.

Sorry I missed you...maybe next time.

Mike

Mikey · October 12, 1999, 10:29 PM

I helped on 9, 10 &11 about 15 minutes! Then Bill and Tom pulled about three of us to set up relief for stage 6. I was glad to help but it kept me from meeting everybody - bummer.

Those guys were ugly, weren't they?!

Mikey

Jack Straw · October 13, 1999, 08:46 AM

Mike S,

Maybe I should brush up on my reading skills before I start working on my shooting skills!

Thanks for straightening me out.

Jack

Ricky T · October 13, 1999, 09:01 AM

Mikey: Sorry I shot with Mike S. on the left hand range. Second day, first squad, in the morning. I was freezing.
Jack Straw: I run an indoor IDPA club at American Classic Marksman in Norcross. We shoot every other Monday night at 7pm, registration 6-7pm. Our next match is October 25. We also shoot IDPA outdoors at South River Gun Club in Conyers on the fourth Sundays. Come join us.

Jack Straw · October 13, 1999, 10:09 AM

Ricky,

Thanks for the info. Monday nights at 7 would be tough for me to make, but I'm going to look into this more to see what I can do. And thanks for the IDPA web address; I'm going to go check it out right now.

Jack

October 11, 1999, 04:45 PM	#1
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	I see it was held Oct 1-3 near Walls, Miss. Also, for IDPA buffs, would a Glock 21 or 30 with a .400 corbon barrel be allowed in Custom Defensive Pistol division? I assume yes (the caliber is specifically allowed in CDP - YET it says no barrels other than "factory configuration") - ? Now, would the same gun be allowed in Stock Service Pistol, assuming no other modifications? If the answer is no, how is that fair/sensible when that's the only way to get that caliber, since they don't come from the factory, unlike .357sig, 'cept from a few 1911 makers? It really wouldn't violate the spirit of the maxim that IDPA is not an equipment race. Could a local club allow it if they wanted?

October 11, 1999, 08:53 PM	#2
EAF Member Join Date: May 8, 1999 Posts: 18	I was at the IDPA Nationals. It was a great match. All the COF's had you doing several things at once. Such as shooting at moving targets while moving. As for your equipment question, I have this type of conversation every once in a while. "Let me allow this or that, it doesn't really bend the rules that much". The best one is "...but I'd use (put your favorite modification here) on the street". My answer is usually...that you have to put your foot down somewhere and that place won't make everyone happy. Call IDPA whatever you want, in the end it is a game and games have rules. The game where you can put anything you want on your pistol is IPSC. To play IDPA you have to "handicap" yourself by playing within the rules that someone in Arkansas wrote up. Alas, what you do a club level is up to you and the match director. At my club, we'd just put you in Enhanced Service Pistol. Yikes! I just read what I wrote. A bit harsh, huh? Please don't take it personally. EAF

October 11, 1999, 09:49 PM	#3
Mike Spight Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Leavenworth, KS USA Posts: 606	Futo: Yeah, I was there too. A generally great course of fire and John Shaw's MISS Facility is fantastic. IMHO, you'd have to shoot your Glock .400 CB in SSP. CDP is reserved for SA semi autos. ESP for SA or Selective (ala CZ-75, Witness, etc). Local clubs are allowed some leeway in allowing variance from the equipment rules...you can't do it, however, in official state/regional/national matches. I think by "factory configuration" the intent is a bbl that has identical external dimensions to the factory bbl. I don't think caliber matters. Anyway, it's a moot point, as again, Glocks normally shoot in SSP. The IDPA website rule book does, however, state that pistols suitable for SSP and ESP may be shot in other divisions. Bottomline, call/e-mail IDPA HQ...let them make the call. Mike

October 12, 1999, 09:20 AM	#4
Ricky T Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Location: ATL, GA Posts: 197	Futo: I was there too. It was lots of fun. EAF, also known as "Tactical Ponytail", shoot with me at our clubs in Atlanta. Mike Spight and I shot on the same squad. (Hi Mike, great to have met you and your wife). Learned a whole lot. I think Mike is right, your gun would be in Enhanced Service Pistol Class (ESP) but call IDPA just to be sure. I would let you shoot that gun in our club. Ricky T

October 12, 1999, 11:56 AM	#5
Mike Spight Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Leavenworth, KS USA Posts: 606	Ricky: Hey, good to hear from you! In retrospect, it was a lot of fun and I learned a great deal about the letter vs. the intent of rules. Even thought I was sorely disappointed in my performance, Susan had a great time. Having her there to help paste targets, bring water, etc was great. BTW, I still think "Attention Shoppers" with the three color coded flip cards was about the most un-realistic course of fire I've ever shot in my life...what you'd expect at an IPSC match, IMHO. Best, Mike

October 12, 1999, 02:25 PM	#6
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Sounds like it was a real success. Regarding my equipment question: Uhhmm, okay, thanks, I guess. The ONE division I thought sure such a pistol would work in was CDP. Now EAF says no, ESP only, while Mike Spight says SSP and ESP. EAF, you cannot be right, because larger calibers are not allowed in ESP, so I guess you're really saying that such a gun has absolutely no place in IDPA? Now, Mike (or someone), please tell me then why the IDPA website specifically lists the Glock 20 and 21 and in their non-exhaustive list of example guns OK for CDP? The rules for CDP don't state anything about SA only (though I'm sure it's dominated by 1911s). And if G20 and 21 are on the list, why not the 29/30????? IDPA sounds like a great idea at first, because of the realism focus, but all the rules are not making any sense, and I'm getting very mixed answers to a basic question about the equipment rules, and I presume y'all have been involved for awhile (?). So how can I be expected to understand them? Obviously, one would want to eventually try to shoot at state, regional, or national matches, and I definitely don't want to waste my time getting good at a certain config, so I really need to know the answer that an official at a state, regional, or national match would give me. If I can't get definite answers to seemingly simple questions like this (not necessarily from you - I realize you're not the experts), then it's a real turnoff to participating at all. Well, I'll contact IDPA folks as Mike suggests. If your interpretation of "factory config" is correct (same external dimension), which is a very reasonable interpretation in my view, then you are correct, such a pistol WOULD BE allowed in SSP. Of course, it would also then be allowed in CDP, if for whatever reason you just wanted to shoot in CDP (I wouldn't). Also, though I can see the reason for not allowing smaller calibers in CDP, what on earth is the rationale for not allowing larger calibers in ESP class? It seems that it would just handicap the shooter, but hey, if you want to use .45, etc. in ESP, then why not? If you really just wanted a challenge in that division, you should be able to use a hand cannon... BTW, it seems that Mr. Bill Wilson certainly walks the walk, placing first in CDP. The same Bill Wilson, I presume? [This message has been edited by Futo Inu (edited October 12, 1999).]

October 12, 1999, 03:29 PM	#7
Jack Straw Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 362	Ricky T & Mike S, I'm also in the Atlanta area (Woodstock to be exact) and have often wondered if there are any sort of competitions going on around here. Where do you shoot and what other types of competition go on there? I've never shot in any sort of competition, but it is something I have a growing interest in. Thanks, Jack

October 12, 1999, 03:31 PM	#8
Ricky T Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Location: ATL, GA Posts: 197	Mike, You're right on the Attention shopper stage. Kinda like IPSC/Lite. But didn't they put a disclaimer on that one, I thought they say that the stage was not a tactical exercise but an exercise in target ID. Anyway I agree with you. I really loved the shoot house stages. Are you on the IDPAOnelist mailing? You should read about all the bickering on who's gaming that stage, who shot it too fast, who was gaming the stages, etc. They said someone received a FTDR cause he shot it too fast. Last night at our indoor IDPA match we reshot two stages of the Nat. It was the last stages we shot on Saturday, can't remember the names, the one with the ammo can, and the one you have to shoot at two knife wielding attacking while retreating then do a head shot. I was a little disappointed in my low finish but I knew the competitions were very very tough. I gave it my best. I'm gonna be back next year. Hope to see you and Susan there again, if not sooner at another match.

October 12, 1999, 03:32 PM	#9
Mike Spight Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Leavenworth, KS USA Posts: 606	Fotu: Yep...the same Bill Wilson. Oddly enough, during the first couple of years of IDPA, Wilson shot a Beretta 92 in SSP. Don't know how he did, but reportedly, very well. Fotu, I don't have the IDPA Website up right now...as I haven't committed the equipment lists for weapons and leather to memory, I can't tell you anything for sure. Again, if IDPA is saying that you can shoot a certain type of Glock in CDP, then go for it. I was under the impression that only 1911 type SA pistols in calibers .45ACP, 10mm and .400 CB could shoot there (at least, that's all I've ever seen shoot there...anything else really isn't competitive, if winning is what you're interested in). If the website says you can shoot a Glock 21 or 23 in CDP, I'm sure you can. BTW, I went to the website...you can also shoot the Glock 21 and 23 in SSP. Again, I ONLY shoot SSP. I don't concern myself with the other classes at all. It's too much of a pain in the ass...I like to keep it simple and focus on SSP. As to why you can't shoot anything bigger than .40 S&W or .41 AE in ESP, I don't have a clue as to what the rationale there is...probably because CDP exists for those who want to shoot .45s and .400s. ESP shooters can concentrate on pistols that have less recoil or something like that. I know it's confusing...don't give up though...if you're interested, go to a local IDPA club, shoot the classifier and have fun. It just doesn't get any better than that! Hope I didn't confuse the issue any more than it already was! Mike

October 12, 1999, 03:38 PM	#11
Mike Spight Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Leavenworth, KS USA Posts: 606	Jack Straw: Good to hear from you, but I'm in Leavenworth, KS...I shoot at the Bullet Hole in Overland Park with the KC Shooting Masters. Ricky T and EAF are in the 'Lanta area...I'm sure they'd be happy to link up with you and have you over to their club. Send them some e-mail and enjoy IDPA! Mike

October 12, 1999, 04:41 PM	#12
Futo Inu Senior Member Join Date: February 12, 1999 Location: Oklahoma City, OK, USA Posts: 3,624	Thanks. I think I'll forget about it and go with SSP.

October 12, 1999, 07:01 PM	#13
Mikey Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Tennessee Posts: 885	Mike Spight & Ricky T Did either of you guys shoot the Championship Standards (Stage 6) on the range to the right of the original - the one set up to relieve the overcrowding? And if so, did you get to run through the right side setup (the one for tall people) with the exceedingly handsome S.O. who ran his half of the bay single handedly? That was me! By the way, the stage with the colored cards was "adapted" by Tom Givens from the one we ran at the Tennessee Championships last year (which we adapted from another match) but our adaptation was a lot more tactical. We had it set up like a street gang robery of a convienience/grocery store and the colors represented the uniform smocks worn by the store personnel. The card drawn is the no-shoot and the primary reason for the scenario is non-threat I.D. practice. It can also be set up as a police type stage using the "color-of-the-day" scenario. Futo, You won't go wrong shooting the Glock "as delivered". The confusion about CDP vs ESP is based on power factor and use of non-stock accessories. The 400 Cor-Bon would be CDP not ESP and you would have to meet the 165 PF (no problem with Cor-Bon). Mikey [This message has been edited by Mikey (edited October 12, 1999).]

October 12, 1999, 10:14 PM	#14
Mike Spight Senior Member Join Date: February 15, 1999 Location: Leavenworth, KS USA Posts: 606	Mikey: No, I shot standards on the left side with all the butt ugly SOs I looked for you over on stages 9, 10, & ll. I thought you'd said in your post that was where you'd be working, but I imagine they moved you folks around some. My heartburn with the Attention Shoppers stage is based on the fact that we flipped the card over, drew and also had normal "no shoots" mixed in. I know the stage was based (very loosely) on Jim Cirillo's famous shoot when on the NYPD Stake Out Unit...only problem is, Cirillo was in the store with the clerk (blue smock, IIRC) for quite some time before the BGs made the biggest mistake of their sorry lives. It just seemed gamey or tricky to me. But, it's just my opinion, and I've been wrong plenty of times before. Sorry I missed you...maybe next time. Mike

October 12, 1999, 10:29 PM	#15
Mikey Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 1998 Location: Tennessee Posts: 885	I helped on 9, 10 &11 about 15 minutes! Then Bill and Tom pulled about three of us to set up relief for stage 6. I was glad to help but it kept me from meeting everybody - bummer. Those guys were ugly, weren't they?! Mikey

October 13, 1999, 08:46 AM	#16
Jack Straw Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 362	Mike S, Maybe I should brush up on my reading skills before I start working on my shooting skills! Thanks for straightening me out. Jack

October 13, 1999, 09:01 AM	#17
Ricky T Senior Member Join Date: July 19, 1999 Location: ATL, GA Posts: 197	Mikey: Sorry I shot with Mike S. on the left hand range. Second day, first squad, in the morning. I was freezing. Jack Straw: I run an indoor IDPA club at American Classic Marksman in Norcross. We shoot every other Monday night at 7pm, registration 6-7pm. Our next match is October 25. We also shoot IDPA outdoors at South River Gun Club in Conyers on the fourth Sundays. Come join us.

October 13, 1999, 10:09 AM	#18
Jack Straw Senior Member Join Date: July 26, 1999 Location: Georgia Posts: 362	Ricky, Thanks for the info. Monday nights at 7 would be tough for me to make, but I'm going to look into this more to see what I can do. And thanks for the IDPA web address; I'm going to go check it out right now. Jack