Cylinder spin on half-cock

ArchStanton1862 · September 6, 2023, 09:02 AM

I have 2 Uberti SAA, The one is the "El Patron" model which was pre-tuned at the factory and it's action is smooth and flawless. The other is a nickle plated "Regulator". My question is that on the Regulator, the cylinder does not free spin around like normal with the hammer at half-cock. The action I'm talking about is spinning it like Russian roulette, it spins like just one revolution and stops but will spin a bit further if I really give it a whirl around. Is this normal? It is lubed and cleaned, is there any adjustment that will allow it to spin more freely or just leave it alone? Thanks

**44 AMP** · September 6, 2023, 12:17 PM

A revolver cylinder must be free to rotate without binding.

A cylinder that spins freely round and round is neat, it's fun, but it's not needed for proper function. You have a gun that has been "slicked up" that does it, and one that has not been, that doesn't.

A cylinder that spins all the way around slowing to a stop as it does so is not a mechanical problem. Clearly there is more friction on it than on the cylinder of the other gun, but it doesn't interfere with normal operation, does it??

I was brought a gun once (Ruger SP101) where the cylinder would not spin at all. You could turn it, by hand but the drag would not let it free spin. That gun turned out to have a carbon build up inside the cylinder pin hole. The owner had never cleaned that part of the gun. Once cleaned it worked normally.

SO, clean the central hole in the cylinder like you would the barrel and chambers, solvent, brush, patches, etc. Once you are certain it is clean, that takes that factor off the list of possible causes.

Check the fit of the base pin through the cylinder. Look at the pin, itself, any roughness to the surface?? grooves, nicks, anything that makes it rough where it should be smooth??

Check the nickel finish. Nickel plating can add thickness to a part. Perhaps your gun was made with a tight fit, and the plated added just enough to prevent free spin round and round??

You could consider polishing the base pin, BUT remember if you remove metal you can screw up the gun. There is no adjustment, only hand fitting, & polishing to allow the cylinder to spin more freely than it currently does, and it is an individual thing.

What you want (cylinder spinning several revolutions before slowing and stopping) is a cosmetic thing, and not something the gun has to have, so tuning your gun to do that would be a trial and error matter.

Good Luck!

ArchStanton1862 · September 6, 2023, 02:04 PM

44 AMP, thanks for the reply!

I haven't fired the gun as of yet. It seem to function properly. I've swapped out the cylinder bushing and the cylinder pin both separately and together with the tuned one just to see if those parts were an issue and they don't seem to be as the lack of spin issue is still there.
At half-cock, when I rotate the cylinder, just prior to it clicking in place and I let go, it springs back with some force the opposite way. The tuned gun does not do this, the cylinder will just sit there to where I rotated it. The other as I said actively spins backwards.

edit add: I even swapped out the entire cylinder with the tuned one to check if it was a cylinder issue, no change

Any thoughts?

**44 AMP** · September 6, 2023, 11:34 PM

My guess would be that the cause is in your hand.

The hand, aka pawl, aka rachet has a spring forcing it forward against the cylinder, so it is in contact and turns the cylinder when you pull back the hammer.

My guess would be that the non tuned gun has the hand riding the cylinder under spring tension and the tuned gun does not. Put the proper parts back into the correct guns, and spin the cylinders. Does the untuned gun "click" as the cylinder spins? or click louder than the tuned gun does?

IF so, this would be a good indicator that the hand on the untuned gun is pushing against the cylinder with more force than in the tuned gun. That would add drag, and slow the spin of the untuned cylinder, and also provide the force to rotate the cylinder backwards, if the cylinder is stopped before the hand clicks over the cam of the next ratchet lug on the cylinder.

This is only a guess, I am not expert with the Colt pattern SA action, (my guns are Rugers which work slightly differently) but I am familiar with the Colt system in general terms.

ArchStanton1862 · September 7, 2023, 08:32 AM

The untuned gun makes a much louder click and is harder to turn than the tuned gun so yes It does appear to be the hand spring tension. Shown in a youtube video of how to adjust it based on this reference book. I have never tuned a gun so Im not sure I'd take it apart and try to decrease the spring tension myself but at least I know what needs to be tried next. Here are photos of both guns and the hand/paw are different in design/shape (this is at full cock) and the spring tension at half-cock is more on the untuned gun. Thanks for all your suggestions.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 7, 2023, 09:32 AM

IMHO, nothing "needs" to be adjusted. Last night I took out my Italian SAA clone and tried spinning the cylinder with the hammer at half cock. It doesn't "spin." The farthest it will move is to the next chamber, where it stops. Which, if you stop to think about it, is all you need for loading. The hand makes a distinct "click" as it moves over each tooth on the pawl.

Your pistol is perfectly normal, and doesn't need anything done to it.

The photo of the Kuhnhausen book refers to page 226 at the very bottom for "free spin." What does that say?

ArchStanton1862 · September 7, 2023, 10:28 AM

Thanks for your input Aguila Blanca, yes I assume my gun is OK but I would like to perhaps have it tuned a bit for a smoother action. I may even go with the Wolf spring kits so I'd probably try to have this hand spring adjust at the same time. As far as the book, that was a screen grab from the youtube video I found, I don't have the book.

**44 AMP** · September 7, 2023, 12:29 PM

If you decide to do the work yourself, GET THE BOOK, and read ALL of it. DO NOT rely on a screen grab or UTube as there is no guarantee that they contain ALL the information that the books do.

Important tips, warnings and other information might be in the next paragraph, or on the next page that DIDN'T get included in the video "grab" excerpt.

Good Luck, which ever way you go about it. Again, as both AB and I have stated, what you want is a want, not a need, so expect to do small amounts of work multiple times so that you don't go too far before realizing it.

**Aguila Blanca** · September 7, 2023, 07:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ArchStanton1862

As far as the book, that was a screen grab from the youtube video I found, I don't have the book.

Well, as it happens -- I do have the book. The page you showed is page 214.

The free-spin check in page 226 is:

Quote:

Cylinder free spin check: The following check is a variation on a method used by pre and post WW II gunsmiths to check S.A.A. and Colt pattern replica S.A.A. Revolvers for excessive cylinder free spin.

1. Load two dummy cartridges with standard weight bullets side by side in the cylinder of the S.A.A. Revolver to be cylinder free spin checked (two cartridges optimize eccentric weight distribution).
2. Hand position the cylinder so that the chamber with the topmost dummy cartridge is (a) up next, (b) in top position, and then (c) one chamber past top position.
3. Then, fast cycle the hammer to half cock position with the chambered rounds in all 3 above locations to determine whether the eccentrically weighted cylinder throws-by (skips). If it does, hand spring tension is not sufficient. Note: Beyond effectively defining excessive S.A.A. cylinder free spin, this test method logically presumes that an otherwise serviceable S.A.A. Revolver cylinder that throws-by, or skips, on fast action must have a misfit bolt and/or a weak or otherwise defective hand spring.

So the concern here isn't how light you can make the cylinder spin, it's that making it too light causes malfunctions.

If it ain't broke ... don't fix it.

ArchStanton1862 · September 8, 2023, 07:26 AM

Aguila Blanca..thanks for posting the book page on "cylinder free spin check"", my revolver functions as it should. 44 AMP ...sound advice...a handgun is not something a novice should play with if they don't know what they are doing!

5thShock · September 25, 2023, 08:49 PM

Have you shot it yet? If not, shoot it quick man, before you find something else wrong with it.

Straitshot · September 26, 2023, 02:50 PM

If you don't know what you are doing you can cause the revolver to become out of time causing a drag line on the cylinder and/or other issues. The hand spring will lighten some over time. Change the bolt/trigger and hammer springs with Wolf springs and clean up any burrs you can see or feel on the internal parts and inside the frame by lightly honing and polishing. You will be surprised how that alone will smooth out the action.

**44 AMP** · September 26, 2023, 08:42 PM

There are revolvers where a drag line on the cylinder shows that the mechanism is operating correctly, per design. And there are revolvers where a drag line on the cylinder shows they are not operating correctly, or have been operated incorrectly.

You need to know what you are looking at, and what it is supposed to do, and not do, as well as what you are doing or not doing when tinkering with the mechanism.

Straitshot · September 26, 2023, 09:37 PM

44 AMP,

The OP said the revolver was a Uberti single action so my remarks were in regards to that particular revolver and not other makers such as Ruger that allow the locking bolt to drop and drag on the cylinder.

5whiskey · October 17, 2023, 09:17 PM

Quote:

If you don't know what you are doing you can cause the revolver to become out of time causing a drag line on the cylinder and/or other issues. The hand spring will lighten some over time. Change the bolt/trigger and hammer springs with Wolf springs and clean up any burrs you can see or feel on the internal parts and inside the frame by lightly honing and polishing. You will be surprised how that alone will smooth out the action.

In fact, free-spinning the cylinder as hard as you can when you "really give it a whirl around" is inadvisable. I don't have a SA revolver where I can spin the cylinder like the wheel of fortune. Nor have I really tried, but I know that I don't have one that will just spin freely like a DA revolver with the cylinder crane out. Speaking of, even that's ill advised on DA revolvers.

I have worked on a Pietta '51 Navy replica some to help hammer pull a bit. She's slick as a cat and quick as a mongoose now, with no issues. But the cylinder doesn't free spin, as in give it a whirl and it keeps rotating 4 or 5 complete turns. I've never had an 1873 replica spin free like that either.

armoredman · October 19, 2023, 02:02 PM

My Uberti Cattleman II Birds Head is brand new, and the cylinder spins freely. On the other hand, I don't spin the cylinder normally, no need.

kell · October 19, 2023, 02:39 PM

I have read articles (J Miculek ) that maintain spinning the cylinder (or running it down your arm) causes unnecessary wear.

September 6, 2023, 09:02 AM	#1
ArchStanton1862 Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2019 Posts: 12	Cylinder spin on half-cock I have 2 Uberti SAA, The one is the "El Patron" model which was pre-tuned at the factory and it's action is smooth and flawless. The other is a nickle plated "Regulator". My question is that on the Regulator, the cylinder does not free spin around like normal with the hammer at half-cock. The action I'm talking about is spinning it like Russian roulette, it spins like just one revolution and stops but will spin a bit further if I really give it a whirl around. Is this normal? It is lubed and cleaned, is there any adjustment that will allow it to spin more freely or just leave it alone? Thanks

September 6, 2023, 12:17 PM	#2
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,105	welcome to TFL A revolver cylinder must be free to rotate without binding. A cylinder that spins freely round and round is neat, it's fun, but it's not needed for proper function. You have a gun that has been "slicked up" that does it, and one that has not been, that doesn't. A cylinder that spins all the way around slowing to a stop as it does so is not a mechanical problem. Clearly there is more friction on it than on the cylinder of the other gun, but it doesn't interfere with normal operation, does it?? I was brought a gun once (Ruger SP101) where the cylinder would not spin at all. You could turn it, by hand but the drag would not let it free spin. That gun turned out to have a carbon build up inside the cylinder pin hole. The owner had never cleaned that part of the gun. Once cleaned it worked normally. SO, clean the central hole in the cylinder like you would the barrel and chambers, solvent, brush, patches, etc. Once you are certain it is clean, that takes that factor off the list of possible causes. Check the fit of the base pin through the cylinder. Look at the pin, itself, any roughness to the surface?? grooves, nicks, anything that makes it rough where it should be smooth?? Check the nickel finish. Nickel plating can add thickness to a part. Perhaps your gun was made with a tight fit, and the plated added just enough to prevent free spin round and round?? You could consider polishing the base pin, BUT remember if you remove metal you can screw up the gun. There is no adjustment, only hand fitting, & polishing to allow the cylinder to spin more freely than it currently does, and it is an individual thing. What you want (cylinder spinning several revolutions before slowing and stopping) is a cosmetic thing, and not something the gun has to have, so tuning your gun to do that would be a trial and error matter. Good Luck! __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 6, 2023, 02:04 PM	#3
ArchStanton1862 Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2019 Posts: 12	44 AMP, thanks for the reply! I haven't fired the gun as of yet. It seem to function properly. I've swapped out the cylinder bushing and the cylinder pin both separately and together with the tuned one just to see if those parts were an issue and they don't seem to be as the lack of spin issue is still there. At half-cock, when I rotate the cylinder, just prior to it clicking in place and I let go, it springs back with some force the opposite way. The tuned gun does not do this, the cylinder will just sit there to where I rotated it. The other as I said actively spins backwards. edit add: I even swapped out the entire cylinder with the tuned one to check if it was a cylinder issue, no change Any thoughts? Last edited by ArchStanton1862; September 6, 2023 at 09:01 PM.

September 6, 2023, 11:34 PM	#4
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,105	My guess would be that the cause is in your hand. The hand, aka pawl, aka rachet has a spring forcing it forward against the cylinder, so it is in contact and turns the cylinder when you pull back the hammer. My guess would be that the non tuned gun has the hand riding the cylinder under spring tension and the tuned gun does not. Put the proper parts back into the correct guns, and spin the cylinders. Does the untuned gun "click" as the cylinder spins? or click louder than the tuned gun does? IF so, this would be a good indicator that the hand on the untuned gun is pushing against the cylinder with more force than in the tuned gun. That would add drag, and slow the spin of the untuned cylinder, and also provide the force to rotate the cylinder backwards, if the cylinder is stopped before the hand clicks over the cam of the next ratchet lug on the cylinder. This is only a guess, I am not expert with the Colt pattern SA action, (my guns are Rugers which work slightly differently) but I am familiar with the Colt system in general terms. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 7, 2023, 09:32 AM	#6
Aguila Blanca Staff Join Date: September 25, 2008 Location: CONUS Posts: 18,217	IMHO, nothing "needs" to be adjusted. Last night I took out my Italian SAA clone and tried spinning the cylinder with the hammer at half cock. It doesn't "spin." The farthest it will move is to the next chamber, where it stops. Which, if you stop to think about it, is all you need for loading. The hand makes a distinct "click" as it moves over each tooth on the pawl. Your pistol is perfectly normal, and doesn't need anything done to it. The photo of the Kuhnhausen book refers to page 226 at the very bottom for "free spin." What does that say? __________________ NRA Life Member / Certified Instructor NRA Chief RSO / CMP RSO 1911 Certified Armorer Jeepaholic

September 7, 2023, 08:32 AM	#5
ArchStanton1862 Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2019 Posts: 12	The untuned gun makes a much louder click and is harder to turn than the tuned gun so yes It does appear to be the hand spring tension. Shown in a youtube video of how to adjust it based on this reference book. I have never tuned a gun so Im not sure I'd take it apart and try to decrease the spring tension myself but at least I know what needs to be tried next. Here are photos of both guns and the hand/paw are different in design/shape (this is at full cock) and the spring tension at half-cock is more on the untuned gun. Thanks for all your suggestions.

September 7, 2023, 10:28 AM	#7
ArchStanton1862 Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2019 Posts: 12	Thanks for your input Aguila Blanca, yes I assume my gun is OK but I would like to perhaps have it tuned a bit for a smoother action. I may even go with the Wolf spring kits so I'd probably try to have this hand spring adjust at the same time. As far as the book, that was a screen grab from the youtube video I found, I don't have the book.

September 7, 2023, 12:29 PM	#8
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,105	If you decide to do the work yourself, GET THE BOOK, and read ALL of it. DO NOT rely on a screen grab or UTube as there is no guarantee that they contain ALL the information that the books do. Important tips, warnings and other information might be in the next paragraph, or on the next page that DIDN'T get included in the video "grab" excerpt. Good Luck, which ever way you go about it. Again, as both AB and I have stated, what you want is a want, not a need, so expect to do small amounts of work multiple times so that you don't go too far before realizing it. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 8, 2023, 07:26 AM	#10
ArchStanton1862 Junior Member Join Date: October 29, 2019 Posts: 12	Aguila Blanca..thanks for posting the book page on "cylinder free spin check"", my revolver functions as it should. 44 AMP ...sound advice...a handgun is not something a novice should play with if they don't know what they are doing!

September 25, 2023, 08:49 PM	#11
5thShock Senior Member Join Date: August 28, 2006 Posts: 400	Have you shot it yet? If not, shoot it quick man, before you find something else wrong with it.

September 26, 2023, 02:50 PM	#12
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 192	If you don't know what you are doing you can cause the revolver to become out of time causing a drag line on the cylinder and/or other issues. The hand spring will lighten some over time. Change the bolt/trigger and hammer springs with Wolf springs and clean up any burrs you can see or feel on the internal parts and inside the frame by lightly honing and polishing. You will be surprised how that alone will smooth out the action. Last edited by Straitshot; September 26, 2023 at 11:18 PM.

September 26, 2023, 08:42 PM	#13
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,105	There are revolvers where a drag line on the cylinder shows that the mechanism is operating correctly, per design. And there are revolvers where a drag line on the cylinder shows they are not operating correctly, or have been operated incorrectly. You need to know what you are looking at, and what it is supposed to do, and not do, as well as what you are doing or not doing when tinkering with the mechanism. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

September 26, 2023, 09:37 PM	#14
Straitshot Senior Member Join Date: July 27, 2011 Location: West Texas Posts: 192	44 AMP, The OP said the revolver was a Uberti single action so my remarks were in regards to that particular revolver and not other makers such as Ruger that allow the locking bolt to drop and drag on the cylinder.

October 19, 2023, 02:02 PM	#16
armoredman Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2007 Location: Arizona Posts: 5,263	My Uberti Cattleman II Birds Head is brand new, and the cylinder spins freely. On the other hand, I don't spin the cylinder normally, no need.

October 19, 2023, 02:39 PM	#17
kell Member Join Date: August 8, 2020 Location: DFW Texas Posts: 42	I have read articles (J Miculek ) that maintain spinning the cylinder (or running it down your arm) causes unnecessary wear.

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