.41 magnum bullet - what happened?

[dahermit]

My favorite was the Saeco number 410. It is a 220 plain base, round nose, flat point. http://www.redding-reloading.com/ind...-moulds-charts

I used it for 99% of all my shooting. The mold I had was a four cavity.

Years ago, I also had an RCBS .41 Keith-type and a Lyman gas-check, SWC.

The Saeco had the "advantage" of being more friendly to rapid reloads due to its lack of shoulder.

[1911Tuner]

Although I'd rather have the .41Spl, the .41Mag works in the mid-frame Rugers.

I know. The hesitation on it being a catalog item is...How long will they stand up to full power ammunition? It wouldn't be a problem for me and others who aren't compulsive over touchin' off a small thermonuclear event every time we pull the trigger...but some people are like that, and Ruger knows it.

Since I have a couple thousand rounds + of .41 Magnum brass, it would work out well for me, but the chances of Ruger tooling up for a .41 Magnum New Vaquero are pretty slim. It would be easier to convince them to do a .41 Special.

[newfrontier45]

As far as I know it's not an issue with the existing custom guns but it probably doesn't offer a safety margin Ruger would be comfortable with. Personally, I wouldn't want to do much full power shooting on that platform unless it were a Bisley. I'd love to see them legitimize the .41Spl and believe it or not, bring back the aluminum XR3 grip frame. I know, we can't be satisfied.

[RJM52]

Since the .41 Magnum refuses to die we'll bring this back from the dead....

And thanks to Ruger, Henry and Freedom Arms there are still lots of fine new guns out there...

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/show...ad-Data-Center

So who has added to their .41 Collection out there...?

Bob

[agtman]

From 2013 ... Gotta luv necro-threads!

[silvermane_1]

Originally Posted by MLeake

Re: "My load."

Um... no, that was something recommended by the shootists of the day, including Elmer Keith.

Note the similarity between the .41 200 at 950, and the .40S&W 180 at 980; the .40 was designed from the start as a cartridge for LE, and designed very similarly to the proposed .41 police load.

So, not "my load."

Also there is the .41 AE(Action Express), it came out before the 40 S&W.

[P5 Guy]

S&W40 is falling from favor now, also.

[SIGSHR]

The 41 Magnum was meant to fill that "caliber gap"-whatever that is. I am aficionado, treasure mine, though it probably doesn't really do anything the 44 Special/Magnum doesn't. It was introduced at a time when the large frame revolver had gone out of fashion, I suspect that for every N-frame S&W produces at least 5 k-frames.

[GeauxTide]

Good caliber, easy to load. Handles max loads better than any caliber I've loaded, i.e., 357, 44spl, 44mag, 45 Colt.

[rclark]

Like any odd-ball/obsolete cartridge, there will always be those who enjoy it for what it is.

[tex45acp]

I happened upon the .41mag purely because of a mistake. Back when Ruger announced the Redhawk in .44mag, I fell in love with the gun and went to the local gun store to add my name to a long list of those wanting one when they were available. Two full years later I got a call from them letting me know the gun had arrived. To say I was excited was an understatement. They pulled the gun from the cardboard box it was shipped in and realized it was not a .44mag but a .41mag. I was very disappointed to say the least but also curious about this caliber I had never heard of. I was about to walk out when the owner handed me a book from Skeeter Skelton talking about the caliber. I sat in a chair he had there and read the book and decided to buy the gun and three boxes of ammo in different configurations. This gun was a 7.5" stainless version with the integral scope rings. After taking the gun home and shooting the three boxes of shells I fell in love and the love affair continues for over 3 decades. It is a handloaders dream and 90% of what I shoot are my handloads. I have three Redhawks in the caliber, a Taurus 415 and a Henry Lever action. I have taken everything from feral hogs to a book Fallow Deer, and countless whitetail with the scoped 7.5".

[44 AMP]

The .41 Magnum is a classic example of a fine cartridge that just never quite caught on. The reasons are numerous, and fairly clear in hindsight, like a lot of things.

There was a failure in the gun community to have a unified vision of what the round ought to be, and because of it, neither camp got the success they envisioned.

For quite some time the major gun writers of the era (and especially those who had been lawmen) had been writing about what would be the perfect police revolver. In general they felt it ought to be a .40 or .41 caliber, shooting a 200/210gr bullet at 950-1000fps or so. They felt that would be the best blend of size, weight and power.

Guns were made, and marketed, and so was ammo. But what was specifically made, and when played a big part in public acceptance and popularity. S&W made a top of the line gun for sporting use, and a fixed sight "duty" model intended for the police. Quite a few guns were bought by the police for testing.

The trouble at the time was, that for reasons known only to the folks at Remington, they concentrated on producing the magnum ammo first, and didn't get supplies of the lower velocity "police" load ammo on the market until well after many police agencies had tested the .41 (with magnum ammo) and decided it wasn't for them. And since the police weren't wanting them, not many other folks did, either.

On the sporting side of the house, the .41 was accurate, and had a flatter long range trajectory than the .44 Magnum, some people took to it right away. Others didn't, because the guns were the same as the .44 Mag, and the .41 was "15% less". And even though the .41 was "15% less" many people couldn't really tell much difference in recoil, and when Dirty Harry came out just a few years after the .41 mag, the .44 fever that swept the nation's shooters just made double sure the .41 never got the limelight.

Its not dead, the .41 Mag lives as a niche round, keeping enough sales to stay, if only barely. Well loved by the people who know it well, and mostly ignored by everyone else.

this was true 10 years ago when I posted it in this thread and is still true today. As I see it, the main reason the .41 Mag never made it as a police round (ensuring a wide popularity) is because of what turned out to be another of Remington's "blunders". Rem's vision of what the round should be (MAGNUM!) and what the public wanted (police market, primarily) were quite different.

[stagpanther]

tex45--looks like a super blackhawk hunter you got there--pretty rare, I wanted one back in the day but they were limited production IIRC.

[Bob Wright]

For those who espouse the .41 Magnum as having "flatter trajectory" be reminded that trajectory is primarily a function of velocity. Simply put, the faster a bullet covers a given distance, the less time gravity will have to pull it down. So, depeding upon ammunition selected, the .44 often will cover the same distance over ground in less time than the .41. I have shot some 180 gr. .44s exceedoing 1700 f.p.s. and they were rather flat shootin'.

AND...............Remington did indeed produce a "Police Load" for the .41 Magnum. Loaded with a swaged 210 gr. SWC, it leaded the bore horribly and was a pretty sorry load in general.

I had a hard time comparing the .41 to the .44 as I had them in Ruger Single Actions. The .44 warsh a Super Blackhawk, 7 1/2" barrel, while the .41 was a 4 5/8" Blackhawk, so hard to compare fairly. And, at the time I owned the .41, bullet selection was very limited. So I never really warmed up to the .41 Magnum. And, having a battery of .44 Magnums and .45 Colts, never have miissed it.

Bob Wright

[ballardw]

Originally Posted by Bob Wright

AND...............Remington did indeed produce a "Police Load" for the .41 Magnum. Loaded with a swaged 210 gr. SWC, it leaded the bore horribly and was a pretty sorry load in general.

I think the police load may have used some of the bullets I bought in the late 70's. Soft and lots of greasy lube. Just a pain to handle.

Still not many easy to find bullet choices but I have bullet moulds for round ball, wadcutter, round nose, semi wadcutter and one hollow point at weights from 160 to 244 grains (can't remember what the ball throws, about 110 ).

[44 AMP]

Swaged lead bullets are always "soft". They have to be, due to the way they are made. This is not automatically a bad thing, it just means that there is an upper velocity limit (much slower than the one for harder bullets) beyond which they are not suitable and performance is poor.

Trajectory involves more than just velocity, it also includes bullet shape, wieght, & size.

I looked on a Hornady chart, choosing the closest match I could find, a .41 210gr JHP and a .44 200gr jhp at the same starting speed of 1500fps.

Sighted for 25m, drop at 50m was identical for both .6". At 75m, the .41 drops 2.6" and the .44 drops 2.7". At 100m the drop was 6.6" for the .41 and 6.8" for the .44. And that the end of the chart 125m, the .41 drop was 12.4" and the .44 drop was 12.9".

So, yes the .41 does shoot flatter than the .44 but not much, a tenth of an inch at 75, two tenths of an inch at 100 and a whole half inch at 125.

I am not impressed with how much flatter the .41 is, by the book.

Obviously with different bullets and loads the precise numbers will be slightly different, but I don't think the principle will change. The .41 does shoot flatter than the .44 by a tiny amount, but for me it's not enough to matter.

[RoyceP]

Originally Posted by Hawg

The .41 Long Colt was developed in 1877 and ran a 200 grain bullet at 750 FPS. It was a popular round for many years. Methinks the .41 mag was an attempt to revive a tried and true caliber that just didn't make the final cut.

As someone who reloads for the 41 Colt and in the past loaded the 41 Magnum I say they are very different. The 41 Colt is much more like a 38 Special. The 41 Magnum is a little toned down from a 44 Magnum. Big difference between the two. Oh, and the 41 Colt is .407" diameter while the 41 Magnum is a true 41 caliber.

I had a N Frame Smith in 41 Magnum for a while. I decided it was a more expensive and unusual cartridge than the very similar 44 Magnum so I sold it. The revolver at that time was out of production and it was worth maybe twice what a Model 29 would sell for. Brass was hard to get and expensive when you did.

[jmr40]

If the 41mag had come 1st we wouldn't have 44 mag. Actual bullet diameter for 44 mag is .429 while actual bullet diameter for 41 mag is .410 so they are closer than most realize. That isn't really enough to matter on game, but on most revolver cylinders can leave a bit more metal for strength. Honestly, based on pure performance I'd prefer 41 mag over 357 or 44 mag.

In fact my very 1st centerfire handgun was a 41 mag Ruger Blackhawk. But at the time (late 1970's) I was a poor college kid and couldn't afford ammo for 41 mag. At that time it was even harder to find and very expensive. The last box of ammo I bought was over $30 for a box. That was a lot of money at the time.

[44 AMP]

The reason our .38s are actually .36s and our .44s are actually .43s comes from the early days of metallic cartridges, which were loaded with heel type bullets (the kind still used in .22 LR) where the full bullet diameter was the same as the outside of the case and a "heel" was inside the case.

When tecnology developed the inside lubricated bullet the bullet diameter was reduced to fit inside the case, but the original caliber names were retained. Cartridges developed after the end of the heel type bullet era typically have names much closer to the actual bullet diameter such as the .45 Colt round.

Cartridges designed after about 1900 are named both ways, some the actual bore/bullet size and some after the traditional "bore size" caliber they were descended from. And then there are some that are named after what ever the inventor though was a cool name.

[RC20]

I went to the 41 Magnum side of the force back in the 70s. I had a Rugger 44 Magnum, then a S&W but I fell head over heels for the 41 magnum and can't say why, its just suited me.

How effective will be this against black bears/grizzlies? Thanks

In the case of bears a gun is a tool. It would be effective against a black bear but so would a 357 and even a 38.

But, generally black bears are not hard critters to kill and then generally do not attack outright. Just a bang might be enough to run one off (keeping in mind habituated black bears are truly dangerous and you have to take that into account.

As for Grizzly, I carried the 41 on my into the woods fishing trips but I was under no notion that it was a good go to option. Purely noise as where I fished there were not habituated bears (either type).

I carried two complete sets of reloads and I would climb a tree to avoid a Grizzly and only shoot one from there and I was clearly stuck there (yes I might well not have made it to the tree or up the tree).

I have seen Grizzlies move and they are insanely fast. The Fridge of Chicago Bears fame was slow compared to how fast a Griz can and does move.

Being in Alaska I have always followed the wisdom closely on dealing with bears. My weapon of choice was a Semi Auto Shotgun with 4 double O buck and one slug.

I now of no sudden encounters that the guy with a gun no matter how prepared he (never knew a woman to be in that position) or she was, the bear was on them before they got a shot off.

Sight distances of course matter. Best view I got of a Grizzly was an open mountain meadow alongside a road as I was putting along slowly on my motorcycle (long story).

It stood up, took one look at me, whirled and was half way across the meadow before I could have spit.

The best tool for a Grizzly is bear spray. Proven over and over again.

And I know of one case where the guy had bear spray but it was in its holster and the bear was on him before he could get it out. At that point he just curled up and took his beating and fortunately the bear then ran off (fairly typical for a Grizzly encounter)

And that is where you have to play the odds, occasionally there is a truly predatory Grizzly and you are done for. If you can reach it the bear spray is your best chance.

I know of one reported case where a group of 5 hunters (Caribou out in Western Alaska) were headed back to camp and were taking a break on top of a knoll.

One of them looked back and a Grizzly was coming up the hill full speed. Ok, this is not a chance encounter at close quarters and its time to start shooting.

the 5 of them were experienced hunters and realized what they were dealing with, spread out and started shooting. They all had different cartridge files but all were 30-06 on up to 375 HH, almost all the shots hit and the bear died 5 feet in front of them. That what it took to put down a Grizzly coming after them.

they back traced the route and found where the bear had come across their trail and then had followed it for several miles. Clearly predatory.

Sans good circumstances like they had, you are toast.

My guess is a full on charging Grizzly that is after you would take a 20mm cannon to stop in its tracks. My take (passed onto me) with the 12 gauge was get at least one shot in with the OO buck and hope you hit it hard enough to distract it, shred its head with the other OO buck and a slug to kill it though all double OO buck might be a better choice.

I did some walking with my wife's family in serious Grizzly country (her sister, husband and two kids) and I told them how it would come down.

My job is to stay between you and a bear, your job (husband and sister) is to get the kids back to the truck. Do not try to do my job and I am sacrificial. You know where the keys are, go report it if I don't walk out of the woods after you. The kids are the priority here.

What serves you best is using your head, having tools and a plan of action.

[saleen322]

Guns and/or cartridges succeed or fail for various reasons and many of the reasons have nothing to do with performance. The 41 Mag from a performance standpoint is a good round but it was pushed as a LE round about the same time many departments were moving to high capacity auto loaders. I have most of the common revolvers that interest me and some of the more unusual revolvers as well. I had no particular interest in the 41 mag when a guy wanted to trade his 41 outfit; Ruger RH, dies, brass, bullets, for a 22 rifle I had. I made the trade and love the gun. I worked up a LE similar load, 210 cast bullet at 1079 fps and it shoots lights out. The revolver is a joy to shoot and I don't see me ever being without a 41 mag now. This is the LE load at 25 yards.

[MarkCO]

I really enjoy my .41 Magnums, and sold off the .44 Magnums. It does not matter why, I just prefer it.

The .414 SuperMag barrel for the Encore is, well, fun too.

[44 AMP]

The 41 Mag from a performance standpoint is a good round but it was pushed as a LE round about the same time many departments were moving to high capacity auto loaders.

Actually it was pushed as an LE round about a decade before the big switch to semi autos.

Introduced in 1964 most of the LE testing was done by the late 60s or early 70s at the latest and the very first major PDs to switch to semis happened about 70 and the big switch didn't happen until the early 80s.

Remington (the only ammo maker at first) for reasons known only to the Rem people of the time focused on production of the 210gr JHP/JSP "magnum" ammo, and by the time they were making the 210gr SWC police load in quantity, most of the PD's testing the .41 Mag had done the testing with the magnum, ammo, and rightly, declared it unsuitable for police use.

If you're looking for someone to blame for the .41 mag never becoming a police round (or even having a fair shot at it), that would be the Remington executives of the 60s with their decisions about what load, how much, and when Remington would make.

[jetinteriorguy]

Originally Posted by saleen322

Guns and/or cartridges succeed or fail for various reasons and many of the reasons have nothing to do with performance. The 41 Mag from a performance standpoint is a good round but it was pushed as a LE round about the same time many departments were moving to high capacity auto loaders. I have most of the common revolvers that interest me and some of the more unusual revolvers as well. I had no particular interest in the 41 mag when a guy wanted to trade his 41 outfit; Ruger RH, dies, brass, bullets, for a 22 rifle I had. I made the trade and love the gun. I worked up a LE similar load, 210 cast bullet at 1079 fps and it shoots lights out. The revolver is a joy to shoot and I don't see me ever being without a 41 mag now. This is the LE load at 25 yards.

Niiice, even though I don’t shoot my.41 mags much anymore I’d be tempted to add this to my collection.