New to Me, Winchester SL 1910 .401

[wachtelhund1]

Hey, I'm really excited, I've got a 1910 WSL .401 cal rifle coming, made in 1920. I should get it tomorrow. I've wanted one of these for years. I saw this two weeks ago on Gunsinternational. Good buy, rifle has been re-blued and presentation wood added. It comes with two extra magazines, reloading dies and two boxes of ammo. I talked to the seller, he has owned this rifle for forty years and never fired it. He said it was on his wall and he just looked at it. He bought it from a guy who was in gunsmithing school, who refinished it and added the presentation wood. Ammo will be the long pole in the tent, but no big deal. I've got fifty pieces of 30-30 brass that I have turned down the rim to .401 specs on my mill and have annealed them. Next will be cutting an extraction groove in the cases. The shortening them and blowing out the cases. I'll cast 41 mag bullets and size the down to .406 dia. and I'll be in business.

Oh the new .400 Legend duplicates the .401 ballistics.

Got some pictures:

[Pumpkin]

Very pretty, those things had a reputation for hitting hard at close range back in the day. Walnut and shiny blue are becoming hard to find. Congratulations!

[bamaranger]

Good for you! As you may well know, the SLR had a following back in the day with LE and autobandits, usually in .351 SLR.

I've always been of the opinion that the .351 or .401 SLR would have made the M1 carbine the gun it should have been, but few share my belief.

[wachtelhund1]

Originally Posted by Pumpkin

Very pretty, those things had a reputation for hitting hard at close range back in the day. Walnut and shiny blue are becoming hard to find. Congratulations!

The WSLs in .351 and .401 were provided to a number of our allies in WW1. Also, I love walnut and blued steel my self. I've made a number of walnut stocks for myself.

[HiBC]

Its a classy gun! Congratulations!

They are an unlocked ,straight blowback action.

To find enough bolt mass to make that work, the forend is a hollow shell with a massive bolt operating within it.

You will find the recoil to be a bit of a surprising thump relative to cartridge size.

Have fun!`

[Pumpkin]

The new Henry 9mm uses a setup very similar to what you describe.

[wachtelhund1]

I picked up this Model 10 yesterday. It is a beautiful rifle, can't believe it is 100 year old. The RCBS dies that came with were missing the decapping rod and pin. The threaded hole for the decapping rod was larger than today's dies. I called RCBS, no parts available, don't even list the .401 anymore. I ordered a new set of dies from Graf's.

[bamaranger]

I have read accounts of the 1907 and 1910 rifles use by aircraft observers in WWI, in Wiki and elsewhere, but also have heard discussion as to how much use or combat the rifles actually saw. The alternate theory is that if they were used in the air, it wasn't for very long, as aircraft became more powerful and the ineffectiveness of individual small arms against MG armed Fokkers was quickly recognized, two seaters sprouted MG's pretty quickly.

Regardless, the Win SLR rifles have always had an appeal to me, as did the .401 (and .351 ctgs). Interestinglyl, an article just appeared in one of the magazine I subscribe to (yes, I still get paper magazines) and therein is an article on the 1905 SLR in chambered in .35SLR (not .351). I was surprised to read that the often malingned as underpowered .35Win SLR could drive a 160 gr lead bullet to 1300 fps. That is .357 mag power and not really anything to sneeze at, though not the equal of a .351 SLR or any real rifle ctg.

The .401SLR reportedly could drive a 200gr bullet to over 2000fps, exceeding 10mm Auto and 41 Mag pistol numbers (when fired from pistols) by a considerable amount (25% ? , my math skills leave a lot to be desired). Having taken a number of whitetails with a .44 mag carbine delivering similar numbers, the .401 SLR is no slouch either, though it and the SLR never really caught on. The Rem 8 and 81 were of similar size and weight, fired real rifle ctgs, and were a likely reason the SLR family struggled.

[44 AMP]

In the early days of WWI when all the aircraft were unarmed "observer" types, pilots from opposing sides often could do nothing but wave at each other. Since this did no harm to the enemy, and did nothing to stop them observing what your side was doing, things escalated. Bricks were thrown, and, sometimes grenades, (and don't laugh a regular building brick will put a hole completely through a fabric and wood biplane...

Pistols, and rifles were used, especially in two seat aircraft. Later machine guns were first adapted, then purpose built to be used from /mounted on aircraft.

I'd think "combat use" of Winchester SLRs were in that group of "stopgap" or "pioneer" arms used because they had some, not because they were the best things possible.

.35Win SLR could drive a 160 gr lead bullet to 1300 fps. That is .357 mag power

ITs .357 revolver power, from a 6" pistol, and several hundred fps below what a .357 will do in a carbine. The .401 200gr will match .44 Mag carbine performance, and so is definitely nothing to sneer at.

[bamaranger]

Yes, .357 revolver numbers. I neglected to add that in crafting the post, though I managed to include that specific when discussing the .401/.41mag and 10mm Auto in the next sentence.

I had always read that the early SLR cartridges, the .32 and .35 were pretty anemic ( I think my addition of "Cartridges of the World" is particularly condeming) and was surprised to learn that the .35 SLR manages magnum revolver numbers. I guess I never had paid attention previously.

[ballardw]

I can just see a biplane open cockpit with the pilot holding the joystick in one hand and trying to aim a rifle like this over the side at another. The self-loader would make sense because that one-hand needed to keep control of the airplane would allow followup shots where a bolt, lever or even pump would be questionable to use.

[44 AMP]

I can just see a biplane open cockpit with the pilot holding the joystick in one hand and trying to aim a rifle like this over the side at another.

From what I understand, back in those early days it was rarely the pilot who would use a rifle, simply because of the awkwardness. Pistol, yes, chuck a brick or grenade, yes, rifle, pretty rare, I would think.

many of the early planes were two seaters, single seat "fighter" aircraft didn't come along till later and observation planes were used throughout the war. So, it was usually the observer, who would use a rifle, and later often an LMG for offensive and defensive use. I once saw a picture from the early war where the observer was using the standard Mauser 98 infantry rifle. Obviously not an ideal situation, but they had them and used them until better things came along.

[wachtelhund1]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Its a classy gun! Congratulations!

They are an unlocked ,straight blowback action.

To find enough bolt mass to make that work, the forend is a hollow shell with a massive bolt operating within it.

You will find the recoil to be a bit of a surprising thump relative to cartridge size.

Have fun!`

Yeah, they have a huge bolt attachment under the forearm. for added weight for the operating system. I once had a semi-auto HR 700 .22 mag. It was a pretty simple rifle and direct blow back operating system. I thought of converting it to a 5.7x28 mm. Then I started doing the math for bolt weight. No matter how I did the calculations, I would have required a four pound bolt. I drop the idea.

[44 AMP]

No matter how I did the calculations, I would have required a four pound bolt. I drop the idea.

you might get away with a lighter bolt and a very heavy spring, but nobody wants to rack a 60lb plus spring with a (relatively) teeny little handle.

The best way to go, these days is to use some variation of the fluted /dimpled chamber to make it a delayed blowback. HKs are very successful with their version and the Automag II in .22WMR worked too, though individual guns were pretty ammo picky.

[wachtelhund1]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

you might get away with a lighter bolt and a very heavy spring, but nobody wants to rack a 60lb plus spring with a (relatively) teeny little handle.

The best way to go, these days is to use some variation of the fluted /dimpled chamber to make it a delayed blowback. HKs are very successful with their version and the Automag II in .22WMR worked too, though individual guns were pretty ammo picky.

Ah, I'm long over that project and that gun was sold a long time ago. But I've got 25 pieces of brass made to .401 from .30-30 brass, rims turned and extractor groves cut into them. I loaded four with bullets and fired them, they worked fine. I've got another 25 waiting to be shot fire forming them to the chamber.

[44caliberkid]

Nice looking gun. I used to have a 351. They are fun shooters.