Full auto Winchester 94 conversion ?

Hal · November 24, 1999, 05:36 AM

No, I don't want to do it.
No, I don't want to know how to do it.
What I do want to know is when was it done, and for who(whom?)?
I remember reading about it years ago, but can't remember the details of who, where and why. IIRC, it was done in Cuba, sometime in the pre Castro days for a US Army Officer, but that's about all I can remember.

------------------
CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.

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fal308 · November 24, 1999, 10:17 AM

John Browning designed a full auto system for the 1873 Winchester and patented it. Perhaps this was a version of that system.

Hal · November 25, 1999, 06:07 AM

fal308,
It may very well be a variation of JMB's design, or possibly the gunsmith just had the same idea. The article I remember described specificly a Winchester 94, in 30-30 using a drum magazine. I'm kind of sure it was in Cuba, but it may have been elsewhere. I forgot exactly why I wanted the information even. Somebody asked an unrelated question and for some reason the auto 94 conversion, done by hand in a backwoods smithy popped into my mind, and it bugged me that I couldn't remember the who where and why of it.

------------------
CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.

http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html

**4V50 Gary** · November 25, 1999, 10:21 AM

The Cubans love guns and they have a wonderful museum. It's possible that the gun may be exhibited there.

------------------
Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

fal308 · November 25, 1999, 10:23 AM

If it was a drum conversion then it wasn't the Browning design. That used the original tubular magazine. There was a device (paddle for lack of a better term) on the end of the barrel, connected by a swinging link. This "paddle" was connected by linkage to the lever, which then operated the action. Thus FA fire was effected.

The conversion you're talking about sounds intruiqing. Have you tried asking on Big Jim's Machinegun Sanctuary? Www.bigjimsmgs.com.

Hal · November 26, 1999, 06:06 AM

Thanks for the info guys. It isn't that big of a deal to me to find out. I hate to go to a board I've never been on and ask a conversion type question because of the why do you want to know thing.
Even though I would love to have a full auto, and legally Ohio says I can, I can't justify it. I have enought trouble getting used to the fact that they make handguns without loading gates

Cripe, next thing you know somebody will tell me they make guns that don't rust

www.bigjimsmgs.com appears to be www.empowering.com now FWIW.
------------------
CCW for Ohio action site.
http://www.ofcc.net
Do what you C.A.N.
http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digita...nsite/can.html

[This message has been edited by Hal (edited November 27, 1999).]

fal308 · November 28, 1999, 09:52 AM

Yeah, I tried and got the same thing also. Sorry about that. I don't know where it moved to. I'll have to do a search for it.

Jules1066 · September 3, 2008, 05:01 PM

15 years ago I read a book about the Cuban Revolution and there was a picture of some American merc who worked with the rebels holding the nasty little chopper.

It was a 94, all right, cut down fore and aft, with the lever gone - don't ask me how it was cocked - and the drum magazine you're speaking of was a luger snail drum! That tells me it was rebored to 9mm Para.

I hope this helps. Only problem is that for the life of me I can't remember the name of the darned book!

James K · September 4, 2008, 01:52 PM

Maybe it was a different picture, but I recall one of a Winchester M1907 (.351 Winchester semi-auto) with a drum magazine. I don't recall a 94 converted to semi- or full-auto, which would be extremely difficult.

At that time, the Communist propaganda machine was pushing out tons of pictures (real and fake) of Castro and his "heroic" rebels. His big flack was Herbert Matthews, of the left-wing (surprise!) New York Times, who did hundreds or stories on the heroic, democratic, peace-loving Castro, in his noble struggle against the evil Batista. The U.S. government, which knew better, was nearly helpless in front of the leftist deluge. One of the prime pushers of the Commie line was Guns Magazine, which did several articles about the bearded gun lover and the "Guns of Castro". I have no reason to think they were doing anything but reporting on some interesting guns, but the fact is that they were scammed, big time.

Jim

zippy13 · September 9, 2008, 01:28 PM

It's my understanding that Browning didn't set out to make a line of full-auto lever guns, but it was an experiment to capture and quantify the available energy from expelled gasses. JMB applied data from this experiment to his work in machine gun development. The simple, but effective, level gun full-auto conversion was an unintended by-product.
What concerns gun ownership advocates are proposed bans on guns easily converted to full-auto fire. Using the Browning paddle-gun as a conversion example, might not such a ban apply to lever guns across the board?

michael t · September 9, 2008, 03:46 PM

It was doing the Cuban revolt and the American Merc was from OHIO . It was a converted Winchester. After Castro went Commie he tried to lead a over throw and got a fireing squad for his trouble.

James K · September 10, 2008, 07:27 PM

"after Castro went Commie"

Castro was never anything but a Communist. His "democratic freedom fighter" image was a trick, used to fool naive estadounidensis into helping him. Some have never admitted their stupidity and claim to this day that the U.S. "drove" Castro to Communism. Like the Jews "drove" Hitler to Naziism.

Jim

561packrat · September 18, 2008, 11:10 PM

This is the reason i happened onto this website. I was trying to find more info re: photo I saw long time ago of Cuban rebels with what appeared to be Winchester drum-fed auto or semi auto conversions. I have learned a lot from the postings in this thread, but of course this just makes me more curious. I would really like to see another photo and learn more. Packrat

guntotin_fool · September 19, 2008, 12:23 AM

as you can see, this looks very much like a 94 winchester, but its a 1907 in 401 winchester. Longer magazines were available, and it would not be hard for someone with the right skills to make a snail drum magazine that would add on to the factory mag. this is a five round fixed mag, and 10's and 15 were fairly common. I had a IDOC .351 for a while, and it had a long stick mag attached to it,

561packrat · September 19, 2008, 06:29 AM

Thanks for posting the photo, GTF, I'm trying to recall the details of gun in picture, I think it had a conical drum ( rimmed, bottleneck cartridge?) and a righthand loading port, but that might just be the haze of time adding things to my memory.

GunnyBunny · September 19, 2008, 04:39 PM

I've been through lots of museums in Cuba and have never seen anything like what's described above. Lots of US and FN made stuff though. Even some they claim Che himself carried.

September 3, 2008, 05:01 PM	#8
Jules1066 Junior Member Join Date: September 3, 2008 Posts: 1	Hal I Know What It Is! 15 years ago I read a book about the Cuban Revolution and there was a picture of some American merc who worked with the rebels holding the nasty little chopper. It was a 94, all right, cut down fore and aft, with the lever gone - don't ask me how it was cocked - and the drum magazine you're speaking of was a luger snail drum! That tells me it was rebored to 9mm Para. I hope this helps. Only problem is that for the life of me I can't remember the name of the darned book!

September 9, 2008, 03:46 PM	#11
michael t Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Out back Ky Posts: 4,044	It was doing the Cuban revolt and the American Merc was from OHIO . It was a converted Winchester. After Castro went Commie he tried to lead a over throw and got a fireing squad for his trouble. __________________ Certified Armed Infidel Colt Defender ,Colt Mustang ,Dan Wesson CBOB, PPK/S, American Classic 1911,Bersa Thunder 380 http://bersachat.comHome of Bersa http://www.metroarms1911forum.com

September 18, 2008, 11:10 PM	#13
561packrat Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 16	Cuban full-auto winchester '94 This is the reason i happened onto this website. I was trying to find more info re: photo I saw long time ago of Cuban rebels with what appeared to be Winchester drum-fed auto or semi auto conversions. I have learned a lot from the postings in this thread, but of course this just makes me more curious. I would really like to see another photo and learn more. Packrat

September 19, 2008, 06:29 AM	#15
561packrat Member Join Date: September 18, 2008 Posts: 16	winchester photo Thanks for posting the photo, GTF, I'm trying to recall the details of gun in picture, I think it had a conical drum ( rimmed, bottleneck cartridge?) and a righthand loading port, but that might just be the haze of time adding things to my memory.

September 19, 2008, 04:39 PM	#16
GunnyBunny Member Join Date: June 14, 2008 Location: Victoria, B.C. Posts: 43	I've been through lots of museums in Cuba and have never seen anything like what's described above. Lots of US and FN made stuff though. Even some they claim Che himself carried. __________________ CCW permit holder Idaho, Utah, Pennsylvania, Maine, and New Hampshire. I can carry in your country, but not my own.

November 24, 1999, 05:36 AM	#1
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	No, I don't want to do it. No, I don't want to know how to do it. What I do want to know is when was it done, and for who(whom?)? I remember reading about it years ago, but can't remember the details of who, where and why. IIRC, it was done in Cuba, sometime in the pre Castro days for a US Army Officer, but that's about all I can remember. ------------------ CCW for Ohio action site. http://www.ofcc.net Do what you C.A.N. http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html

November 24, 1999, 10:17 AM	#2
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	John Browning designed a full auto system for the 1873 Winchester and patented it. Perhaps this was a version of that system.

November 25, 1999, 06:07 AM	#3
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	fal308, It may very well be a variation of JMB's design, or possibly the gunsmith just had the same idea. The article I remember described specificly a Winchester 94, in 30-30 using a drum magazine. I'm kind of sure it was in Cuba, but it may have been elsewhere. I forgot exactly why I wanted the information even. Somebody asked an unrelated question and for some reason the auto 94 conversion, done by hand in a backwoods smithy popped into my mind, and it bugged me that I couldn't remember the who where and why of it. ------------------ CCW for Ohio action site. http://www.ofcc.net Do what you C.A.N. http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digital/237/cansite/can.html

November 25, 1999, 10:21 AM	#4
4V50 Gary Staff Join Date: November 2, 1998 Location: Colorado Posts: 21,831	The Cubans love guns and they have a wonderful museum. It's possible that the gun may be exhibited there. ------------------ Vigilantibus et non dormientibus jura subveniunt

November 25, 1999, 10:23 AM	#5
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	If it was a drum conversion then it wasn't the Browning design. That used the original tubular magazine. There was a device (paddle for lack of a better term) on the end of the barrel, connected by a swinging link. This "paddle" was connected by linkage to the lever, which then operated the action. Thus FA fire was effected. The conversion you're talking about sounds intruiqing. Have you tried asking on Big Jim's Machinegun Sanctuary? Www.bigjimsmgs.com.

November 26, 1999, 06:06 AM	#6
Hal Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 1998 Location: Ohio USA Posts: 8,563	Thanks for the info guys. It isn't that big of a deal to me to find out. I hate to go to a board I've never been on and ask a conversion type question because of the why do you want to know thing. Even though I would love to have a full auto, and legally Ohio says I can, I can't justify it. I have enought trouble getting used to the fact that they make handguns without loading gates Cripe, next thing you know somebody will tell me they make guns that don't rust www.bigjimsmgs.com appears to be www.empowering.com now FWIW. ------------------ CCW for Ohio action site. http://www.ofcc.net Do what you C.A.N. http://thematrix.acmecity.com/digita...nsite/can.html [This message has been edited by Hal (edited November 27, 1999).]

November 28, 1999, 09:52 AM	#7
fal308 Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Missouri Posts: 1,992	Yeah, I tried and got the same thing also. Sorry about that. I don't know where it moved to. I'll have to do a search for it.

September 4, 2008, 01:52 PM	#9
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Maybe it was a different picture, but I recall one of a Winchester M1907 (.351 Winchester semi-auto) with a drum magazine. I don't recall a 94 converted to semi- or full-auto, which would be extremely difficult. At that time, the Communist propaganda machine was pushing out tons of pictures (real and fake) of Castro and his "heroic" rebels. His big flack was Herbert Matthews, of the left-wing (surprise!) New York Times, who did hundreds or stories on the heroic, democratic, peace-loving Castro, in his noble struggle against the evil Batista. The U.S. government, which knew better, was nearly helpless in front of the leftist deluge. One of the prime pushers of the Commie line was Guns Magazine, which did several articles about the bearded gun lover and the "Guns of Castro". I have no reason to think they were doing anything but reporting on some interesting guns, but the fact is that they were scammed, big time. Jim

September 9, 2008, 01:28 PM	#10
zippy13 Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: SoCal Posts: 6,442	It's my understanding that Browning didn't set out to make a line of full-auto lever guns, but it was an experiment to capture and quantify the available energy from expelled gasses. JMB applied data from this experiment to his work in machine gun development. The simple, but effective, level gun full-auto conversion was an unintended by-product. What concerns gun ownership advocates are proposed bans on guns easily converted to full-auto fire. Using the Browning paddle-gun as a conversion example, might not such a ban apply to lever guns across the board?

September 10, 2008, 07:27 PM	#12
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	"after Castro went Commie" Castro was never anything but a Communist. His "democratic freedom fighter" image was a trick, used to fool naive estadounidensis into helping him. Some have never admitted their stupidity and claim to this day that the U.S. "drove" Castro to Communism. Like the Jews "drove" Hitler to Naziism. Jim

September 19, 2008, 12:23 AM	#14
guntotin_fool Senior Member Join Date: November 18, 2004 Posts: 1,446	as you can see, this looks very much like a 94 winchester, but its a 1907 in 401 winchester. Longer magazines were available, and it would not be hard for someone with the right skills to make a snail drum magazine that would add on to the factory mag. this is a five round fixed mag, and 10's and 15 were fairly common. I had a IDOC .351 for a while, and it had a long stick mag attached to it,