16gauge french shotgun wwII era

moteman1 · January 22, 2010, 10:32 PM

need help identifying gun that my father acquired during wwII. it has pt crown mark ,stetiene 17.0 marking on barrels. on the inside of gun it has pt crown mark , df.c, 29,fusil petrik,1324 all in that order. the outside of the gun has fine engraving and the marking '' offray orleans '' on the left side . also, the marking acier cap is on the bottom barrel.

jaguarxk120 · January 23, 2010, 09:38 AM

If you can post some pictures, that would be a great help.

PetahW · January 23, 2010, 10:23 AM

AFAIK:

pt crown mark - French proofmark

stetiene - French Proofhouse

17.0 marking on barrels - chambering/actual bore size

df.c - dunno

29 - 1929 ?

fusil - "shotgun"

petrik - dunno

1324 - serial number ?

offray orleans - maker's name/town

acier - "steel"

cap - dunno

.

oneounceload · January 23, 2010, 06:55 PM

St. Etienne is a gun making center in France, much the way Eibar is in Spain and Gardonne is in Italy

moteman1 · January 23, 2010, 11:11 PM

thanks for the replies. in the future i will post pictures once i learn how to do it on p.c. when i try to search '' offray orleans '' it comes up to french sites wich doesnt help me any. this particular gun was seized from a german troop while my father served in europe during wwII. brought it back to the states and was used for bird hunting for many years and still is in pretty good shape

RJay · January 24, 2010, 11:31 AM

" seized from a German Troop " does sound so much better than, picked it out of a pile of ' turn in ' guns in the street, or confiscated it from an private home. "To the Victor belongs the spoils of the defeated".

mapsjanhere · January 24, 2010, 12:36 PM

You're trying to say, plundering is only bad if Nazis did it

RJay · January 24, 2010, 11:08 PM

Of course, American soldiers would never loot anything

And remember, it was always taken off a SS Colonel.

Jim Watson · January 24, 2010, 11:18 PM

I've got a Verney Carron brought back from the occupation by an older coworker. Confiscated from a German who confiscated it from a Frenchman while they were winning, I figure.

Scorch · January 25, 2010, 03:38 AM

The German army confiscated all firearms from private citizens in occupied France. Technically, the firearms were in safekeeping until the cessation of hostilities. German officers were known to take them out and warm them up occasionally. Many of the arms lockers were looted during the invasion of Europe.

moteman1 · January 25, 2010, 03:32 PM

the story behind this gun was that it was taken from a german colonel. sounds all to true but thats the story. my father actually deer hunted on grounds in germany that only german officers were allowed to hunt on, of course after america invaded germany. i will post pictures of gun once i learn how to.

moteman1 · January 25, 2010, 04:22 PM

Here is some pics of the gun

moteman1 · January 25, 2010, 05:04 PM

More Pics

moteman1 · January 25, 2010, 05:08 PM

A few more

Scorch · January 26, 2010, 04:00 AM

I have seen similar shotguns before, made in France during the 1950s and 1960s. They were about the same quality as lower-end Berettas, not bad but not top grade. I don't think it dates to the WW2 period, but I could be wrong.

Jim Watson · January 26, 2010, 10:36 AM

Did we know it was an over-under before? I did not.

The illustrated shotgun locks up with a sliding top "hood" like a Remington Model 32, later copied by Krieghoff and Valmet. I never heard of a French version.

PetahW · January 26, 2010, 11:45 AM

[Did we know it was an over-under before? I did not.]

Neither did I.

.......... But, then - Why would someone "needing help to identify this shotgun" not include every detail they had available to them ? :barf:

Two things come to mind:

A picture's worth a thousand words.

and
A picture tells a story, don't it ?

.

moteman1 · January 26, 2010, 12:24 PM

Sorry I forgot to mention over and under my bad. now that we all know it is a over and under maybe it could be identified.

moteman1 · January 26, 2010, 03:40 PM

But again if you do read my first post I did mention bottom barrel ,doesn't a over - under have a bottom barrel?

Jim Watson · January 26, 2010, 05:39 PM

Ah, I took that to mean the bottom OF the barrel. That post is not what I or Dr Smith would call Precisionist English.

Any road, it looks like an interesting piece but you are presenting a gun that had to have been made nearly 70 years ago for the story to fit and records from small manufacturers in a conquered country are not very available.

moteman1 · January 26, 2010, 06:44 PM

yes jim, i have to agree that the gun may have been made nearly 70 yrs. ago and records are not very avaible. but just maybe, somewhere in france the records do exist for this gun. it would be interesting to find its orgins and perhaps any value. its a fine gun and never failed my father whom used it for bird hunting up to the mid 1980' s . by the way, i was wondering if dr. smith is a english professor at harvard or yale .

Jim Watson · January 26, 2010, 07:54 PM

Edward E. Smith, PhD, was a manufacturing chemist on his "day job" before the speciality of chemical engineering was offered. In his spare time he wrote science fiction. The Galactic Patrol spoke - or telepathed - in Precisionist English. Which is a lot easier to read than the typical internet post.

Good luck.

I'm done.

moteman1 · January 26, 2010, 09:34 PM

wow far out! chemist on his '' day job '' spare time science fiction and the galactic patrol. well any way thank you for the good luck !

Neruda · January 28, 2010, 08:48 AM

Your shotgun is connected to a certain Boniface Petrik who began to take out patents for shotgun mechanisms in the 1920s. Subsequently he went into partnership with a St Etienne manufacturer called Damon producing guns marked Damon Petrik. This company folded in the 1960s, I think.

It seems that your gun was made by Petrik before the Damon-Petrik partnership - but I don't know when that was! Even so a pre-WWII date may be possible.

My feeling is that Offray was the distributer at Orleans.

However, guns employing Petrik's patents were sometimes known as "Systeme Petrik", so Petrik on your gun may be merely a reference to this, I don't know.

Hope this may further your search a little.

PetahW · January 28, 2010, 07:08 PM

[i have to agree that the gun may have been made nearly 70 yrs. ago and records are not very avaible. but just maybe, somewhere in france the records do exist for this gun. it would be interesting to find its orgins and perhaps any value.]

Get your passport up to speed - It looks like a sabbatical to France is in order !

.

January 22, 2010, 10:32 PM	#1
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	16gauge french shotgun wwII era need help identifying gun that my father acquired during wwII. it has pt crown mark ,stetiene 17.0 marking on barrels. on the inside of gun it has pt crown mark , df.c, 29,fusil petrik,1324 all in that order. the outside of the gun has fine engraving and the marking '' offray orleans '' on the left side . also, the marking acier cap is on the bottom barrel. Last edited by moteman1; January 22, 2010 at 10:57 PM. Reason: found more markings

January 23, 2010, 10:23 AM	#3
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	AFAIK: pt crown mark - French proofmark stetiene - French Proofhouse 17.0 marking on barrels - chambering/actual bore size df.c - dunno 29 - 1929 ? fusil - "shotgun" petrik - dunno 1324 - serial number ? offray orleans - maker's name/town acier - "steel" cap - dunno . Last edited by PetahW; January 23, 2010 at 08:21 PM.

January 23, 2010, 11:11 PM	#5
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	french shotgun thanks for the replies. in the future i will post pictures once i learn how to do it on p.c. when i try to search '' offray orleans '' it comes up to french sites wich doesnt help me any. this particular gun was seized from a german troop while my father served in europe during wwII. brought it back to the states and was used for bird hunting for many years and still is in pretty good shape

January 24, 2010, 11:31 AM	#6
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	" seized from a German Troop " does sound so much better than, picked it out of a pile of ' turn in ' guns in the street, or confiscated it from an private home. "To the Victor belongs the spoils of the defeated". Last edited by RJay; January 24, 2010 at 11:09 PM.

January 24, 2010, 12:36 PM	#7
mapsjanhere Senior Member Join Date: August 6, 2009 Location: Albuquerque Posts: 2,832	You're trying to say, plundering is only bad if Nazis did it __________________ I used to love being able to hit hard at 1000 yards. As I get older I find hitting a mini ram at 200 yards with the 22 oddly more satisfying.

January 23, 2010, 09:38 AM	#2
jaguarxk120 Senior Member Join Date: February 28, 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 2,620	If you can post some pictures, that would be a great help.

January 23, 2010, 06:55 PM	#4
oneounceload Junior member Join Date: April 18, 2008 Location: N. Central Florida Posts: 8,518	St. Etienne is a gun making center in France, much the way Eibar is in Spain and Gardonne is in Italy

January 24, 2010, 11:08 PM	#8
RJay Senior Member Join Date: November 2, 2005 Location: Arizona Posts: 1,936	Of course, American soldiers would never loot anything And remember, it was always taken off a SS Colonel.

January 24, 2010, 11:18 PM	#9
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I've got a Verney Carron brought back from the occupation by an older coworker. Confiscated from a German who confiscated it from a Frenchman while they were winning, I figure.

January 25, 2010, 03:38 AM	#10
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	The German army confiscated all firearms from private citizens in occupied France. Technically, the firearms were in safekeeping until the cessation of hostilities. German officers were known to take them out and warm them up occasionally. Many of the arms lockers were looted during the invasion of Europe. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 25, 2010, 03:32 PM	#11
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	french shotgun the story behind this gun was that it was taken from a german colonel. sounds all to true but thats the story. my father actually deer hunted on grounds in germany that only german officers were allowed to hunt on, of course after america invaded germany. i will post pictures of gun once i learn how to.

January 26, 2010, 04:00 AM	#15
Scorch Senior Member Join Date: February 13, 2006 Location: Washington state Posts: 15,248	I have seen similar shotguns before, made in France during the 1950s and 1960s. They were about the same quality as lower-end Berettas, not bad but not top grade. I don't think it dates to the WW2 period, but I could be wrong. __________________ Never try to educate someone who resists knowledge at all costs. But what do I know? Summit Arms Services

January 26, 2010, 10:36 AM	#16
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Did we know it was an over-under before? I did not. The illustrated shotgun locks up with a sliding top "hood" like a Remington Model 32, later copied by Krieghoff and Valmet. I never heard of a French version.

January 26, 2010, 11:45 AM	#17
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[Did we know it was an over-under before? I did not.] Neither did I. .......... But, then - Why would someone "needing help to identify this shotgun" not include every detail they had available to them ? :barf: Two things come to mind: A picture's worth a thousand words. and A picture tells a story, don't it ? .

January 26, 2010, 12:24 PM	#18
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	Sorry I forgot to mention over and under my bad. now that we all know it is a over and under maybe it could be identified.

January 26, 2010, 03:40 PM	#19
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	But again if you do read my first post I did mention bottom barrel ,doesn't a over - under have a bottom barrel?

January 26, 2010, 05:39 PM	#20
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Ah, I took that to mean the bottom OF the barrel. That post is not what I or Dr Smith would call Precisionist English. Any road, it looks like an interesting piece but you are presenting a gun that had to have been made nearly 70 years ago for the story to fit and records from small manufacturers in a conquered country are not very available.

January 26, 2010, 06:44 PM	#21
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	yes jim, i have to agree that the gun may have been made nearly 70 yrs. ago and records are not very avaible. but just maybe, somewhere in france the records do exist for this gun. it would be interesting to find its orgins and perhaps any value. its a fine gun and never failed my father whom used it for bird hunting up to the mid 1980' s . by the way, i was wondering if dr. smith is a english professor at harvard or yale .

January 26, 2010, 07:54 PM	#22
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Edward E. Smith, PhD, was a manufacturing chemist on his "day job" before the speciality of chemical engineering was offered. In his spare time he wrote science fiction. The Galactic Patrol spoke - or telepathed - in Precisionist English. Which is a lot easier to read than the typical internet post. Good luck. I'm done.

January 26, 2010, 09:34 PM	#23
moteman1 Junior Member Join Date: January 22, 2010 Posts: 11	wow far out! chemist on his '' day job '' spare time science fiction and the galactic patrol. well any way thank you for the good luck !

January 28, 2010, 08:48 AM	#24
Neruda Member Join Date: February 28, 2006 Location: Santiago, Chile Posts: 79	Your shotgun is connected to a certain Boniface Petrik who began to take out patents for shotgun mechanisms in the 1920s. Subsequently he went into partnership with a St Etienne manufacturer called Damon producing guns marked Damon Petrik. This company folded in the 1960s, I think. It seems that your gun was made by Petrik before the Damon-Petrik partnership - but I don't know when that was! Even so a pre-WWII date may be possible. My feeling is that Offray was the distributer at Orleans. However, guns employing Petrik's patents were sometimes known as "Systeme Petrik", so Petrik on your gun may be merely a reference to this, I don't know. Hope this may further your search a little.

January 28, 2010, 07:08 PM	#25
PetahW Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2008 Posts: 4,678	[i have to agree that the gun may have been made nearly 70 yrs. ago and records are not very avaible. but just maybe, somewhere in france the records do exist for this gun. it would be interesting to find its orgins and perhaps any value.] Get your passport up to speed - It looks like a sabbatical to France is in order ! .