General Texas CHL question

Rjeezie · July 7, 2013, 07:18 AM

I know the sign we look for is TPC 30.06... I was told in class that this sign had to be posted on all entry ways though, meaning that if there was an entry into the building that didn't have the sign, you could carry there.

Is this true? Has anybody else heard this?

Thanks

Old Stony · July 7, 2013, 07:58 AM

I have not heard of definite instances of this, but I would think any public entrance would have to be posted to meet the level of legality. I think I would be careful if I were to want to come in the back door of a bar, as it is obviously a place that police could make things difficult for you. Even if you are right and legal, the burden to prove it will ultimately fall on you. Bottom line to avoid anything that will end up with you hiring a lawyer....you will lose even if you win.....

dwwhite · July 7, 2013, 08:05 AM

This thread may belong in the legal section rather than general handgun...

I'm not a lawyer, and this shouldn't be construed as informed advice. This is some guy anonymously posting on an Internet forum...

In Texas:
If the state mandated 30.06 sign is not posted in clear view at the entrances of the building, legally you can enter while carrying a legal concealed firearm. This assumes that it is one of the few types of property where carry is prevented by law, such as schools, hospitals, federal buildings, rodeo grounds (really) etc.

However, in the event of an arrest/prosecution, a police officer or judge is likely to take a dim view of your actions if you had to walk past one or more well marked entrances so that you could sneak in an unmarked back door.

Also remember that in Texas, the property owner can compel you to leave, with police assistance if necessary, for carrying a concealed firearm against their wishes, even where legal. They may not be able to bring weapons charges, but they can make you leave the premises.

All of this applies if you get caught. Be discreet. Also, I make every effort to avoid businesses that have any type of no carry policy, whether said policy is legal or not. They obviously don't want my business so I choose to spend my money elsewhere.

Edit:
Stony beat me to the punch, using half the words to do it.

Double Naught Spy · July 7, 2013, 10:51 AM

Quote:

I think I would be careful if I were to want to come in the back door of a bar, as it is obviously a place that police could make things difficult for you.

Chances are that if it is a bar, then they just need their 51% sign and it does not have to be posted at entrances, IIRC.

Rjeezie · July 7, 2013, 01:26 PM

TO be honest, this isn't so I can be "sneaky" and try to go through back doors and stuff and be a rebel, it's just a question to understand. For instance, I know a building that has a large front entrance with the 30.06, 2 side entrances with it, but then it has one other side entrance that doesn't have it. My question was if somebody carried through that entrance, legally, they would be justifiable since there was no sign, even though the other entrances did have it.

Double Naught Spy · July 7, 2013, 02:45 PM

I would not want to be the test case for that scenario, especially since you have admitted to knowing of the other posted signs.

csmsss · July 7, 2013, 03:43 PM

Quote:

I would not want to be the test case for that scenario, especially since you have admitted to knowing of the other posted signs.

Agreed. And let me paint a very common scenario - many bars with live entertainment leave the back door open before shows in order for musicians to load-in their equipment. These are not intended as general entrances, but nonetheless the door may be open during hours of operation. Just because a sign isn't posted at each and every conceivable admission point doesn't mean you can therefore legally carry into that business.

Bottom line is this - if you know a place is a prohibited place, and enter anyway, you're putting yourself at risk of losing your CHL.

**Tom Servo** · July 7, 2013, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Bottom line is this - if you know a place is a prohibited place, and enter anyway, you're putting yourself at risk of losing your CHL.

Correct. Just as there's a difference between theory and practice, there's a difference between statute and practice.

So sure, maybe the sign's not in exactly the right place, or maybe it's not on every single entrance. If it's clearly posted on the main entrance, a case could be made that you were aware of the restriction, even if you used a different entrance.

Double Naught Spy · July 7, 2013, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Agreed. And let me paint a very common scenario - many bars with live entertainment leave the back door open before shows in order for musicians to load-in their equipment.

Again, bars are typically not places where people can carry guns because of the 51% law.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 7, 2013, 08:05 PM

Just addressing Section 30.06 and not any of the other parts of Texas law (51% sign, Section 30.05, places prohibited to CHLs), Section 30.06 provides that if a property owner wants to prohibit lawful carry they must give notice - either verbal or written.

There are two ways to give written notice - either a card or other handout or a sign. Both must have very specific language. According to the statute however, there is no requirement that the sign be posted on every entrance. The statute only requires the sign be posted conspicuously and meet the statutory requirements.

I think a CHL who entered through a non-posted entrance and who was unaware the property was posted would have a good case that he did not have notice; however, to the best of my knowledge that issue has never been litigated. And of course, if a web forum post or conversation with officers revealed the person DID have notice; but just entered through an unposted door, that would be a bad set of facts for the defense.

Fair warning though, if it isn't in black and white in the statute, don't be surprised if officers decide to arrest and let the courts sort it out. My recommendation would be that if you are aware the property is posted, you shouldn't carry there. In fact, I'd avoid giving my money to bigots entirely; but that is just me.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 8, 2013, 12:04 PM

Unfortunately, there are posted places you need to go to - like the ER.

Once you posted in this and similar threads - then you probably acknowledged you were trying to game the system on well know and common locales that are posted correctly at main doors.

bikerbill · July 8, 2013, 12:19 PM

Just a side note ... I've been carrying legally in Texas for 10 years and have seen exactly ONE 30.06 sign in all that time ... I don't frequent bars, especially when I'm armed, but I have been in a few dance halls where the bar area was posted with a 51% notice ... We shop frequently at an area mall which has a list of prohibited activities, including carrying a firearm, at all their entrances. I ignore them and keep my gun concealed, as it should be. It's a violation of trespassing laws if the place is posted like the mall, somebody in authority somehow sees your gun and asks you to leave, and you refuse.

The one 30.06 sign I saw was, strangely enough, at a Starbucks in a major hotel in downtown Austin. I bought coffee elsewhere.

Glenn E. Meyer · July 8, 2013, 12:45 PM

http://www.texas3006.com/

Keeps a list of posted locales. I see them at medical facilities in San Antonio. Also the Red McCombs car dealerships have been posted in a variable manner. Some had or have compliant signs. Some have 30.06 taped to the door on 8.5 by 11 paper. They come and go. Strange as McCombs is supposed to be a big gun fan.

Austin may have more. No movie theatre in SA that I've been to has had one. I do see 51% signs at some bars.

bikerbill · July 8, 2013, 01:17 PM

Thanks, Glenn ... great resource ... got it bookmarked ...

wxl · July 17, 2013, 11:26 AM

I have seen many 30.06 signs on Federal buildings, court houses and most hospitals I have been to visit patients in Dallas, Garland, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, Austin,....

Regarding not seeing a posted sign, I was advised in my CHL class you will probably lose in court if the facility fell into the category you received instruction in a typical CHL class (plus you suppose to know the regs even tho YOUR CHL class did not cover specificallY). If the facility states there had been a sign but could have been removed is generally accepted as having been posted. The facility is not required to routinely inspect for previously posted signs.

Sgt Pepper · July 19, 2013, 12:00 AM

A couple notes:

Just to clarify: a CHL holder is prohibited at all times from carrying on premises of a 51%+ business, high school/collegiate/pro sporting event (unless somehow participating with a firearm), or correctional facility regardless whether or not a sign is posted. NO EXCEPTION. NO SIGN REQUIRED. See Penal Code 46.035. While the law requires these places to have the 51% signs, failure to properly post that sign does not grant CHL holders the right to carry on such premises unlike hospitals, churches, amusement parks, and government meetings.

The law does not say that the 30.06 signs must be posted at every possible entrance to a property, but just that a sign must be posted "on the property." Cute and clever does not necessarily equal prudent or wise.

Let me ask you this question: the law requires that the 30.06 sign be in both english and spanish. If you are an english speaker and the sign is only in english, have you received notice or can you just stroll past the sign?

Rjeezie · July 19, 2013, 07:40 AM

Just to clarify... again... I'm not looking for a way to be "sneaky" "cute or clever" or anything like. I'm trying to make sure I'm properly understand the laws...

IZinterrogator · July 19, 2013, 08:28 AM

Quote:

It's a violation of trespassing laws if the place is posted like the mall, somebody in authority somehow sees your gun and asks you to leave, and you refuse.

Wrong. If it is posted with a legal 30.06 sign, you can be arrested for trespassing and/or carrying in a prohibited area whether they ask you to leave or not. You walk past the sign, you're in violation, no warning required. The scenario of trespassing with someone asking you to leave and you refusing only applies to unposted places where the owner decides he doesn't want you carrying in the establishment after you already walked in.

Double Naught Spy · July 19, 2013, 11:21 AM

Quote:

Wrong. If it is posted with a legal 30.06 sign, you can be arrested for trespassing and/or carrying in a prohibited area whether they ask you to leave or not. You walk past the sign, you're in violation, no warning required.

Right, a properly posted 30.06 sign serves the purpose without the need for human interaction. It is considered appropriate legal notification.

Quote:

The law does not say that the 30.06 signs must be posted at every possible entrance to a property, but just that a sign must be posted "on the property."

Not exactly. The law reads that the CHL holder must receive notice on entry into the property as per 30.05(b). The sign cannot be posted just "on the property" somewhere.

zoomie · July 19, 2013, 11:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sgt Pepper

failure to properly post that sign does not grant CHL holders the right to carry on such premises unlike hospitals, churches, amusement parks, and government meetings.

I'm not sure about that one.

46.035(i)

(i) Subsections (b)(4), (b)(5), (b)(6), and (c) do not apply if the actor was not given effective notice under Section 30.06.

Hospitals, amusement parks, and churches have to post 30.06 signs.

Bartholomew Roberts · July 19, 2013, 03:27 PM

The literal wording of the statute is that the sign must be posted "in a conspicuous manner." However, I've yet to find a case where the specific details of 30.06 signs has made it into one of the legal reporters.

Without guidance from the courts, I imagine whatever local departmental guidance officers receive and their own individual judgment will determine whether an arrest is made.

July 7, 2013, 07:18 AM	#1
Rjeezie Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 232	General Texas CHL question I know the sign we look for is TPC 30.06... I was told in class that this sign had to be posted on all entry ways though, meaning that if there was an entry into the building that didn't have the sign, you could carry there. Is this true? Has anybody else heard this? Thanks

July 7, 2013, 02:45 PM	#6
Double Naught Spy Senior Member Join Date: January 8, 2001 Location: Forestburg, Montague Cnty, TX Posts: 12,717	I would not want to be the test case for that scenario, especially since you have admitted to knowing of the other posted signs. __________________ "If you look through your scope and see your shoe, aim higher." -- said to me by my 11 year old daughter before going out for hogs 8/13/2011 My Hunting Videos https://www.youtube.com/user/HornHillRange

July 8, 2013, 12:04 PM	#11
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Unfortunately, there are posted places you need to go to - like the ER. Once you posted in this and similar threads - then you probably acknowledged you were trying to game the system on well know and common locales that are posted correctly at main doors. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 8, 2013, 12:19 PM	#12
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,425	Just a side note ... I've been carrying legally in Texas for 10 years and have seen exactly ONE 30.06 sign in all that time ... I don't frequent bars, especially when I'm armed, but I have been in a few dance halls where the bar area was posted with a 51% notice ... We shop frequently at an area mall which has a list of prohibited activities, including carrying a firearm, at all their entrances. I ignore them and keep my gun concealed, as it should be. It's a violation of trespassing laws if the place is posted like the mall, somebody in authority somehow sees your gun and asks you to leave, and you refuse. The one 30.06 sign I saw was, strangely enough, at a Starbucks in a major hotel in downtown Austin. I bought coffee elsewhere. __________________ "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus

July 8, 2013, 12:45 PM	#13
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	http://www.texas3006.com/ Keeps a list of posted locales. I see them at medical facilities in San Antonio. Also the Red McCombs car dealerships have been posted in a variable manner. Some had or have compliant signs. Some have 30.06 taped to the door on 8.5 by 11 paper. They come and go. Strange as McCombs is supposed to be a big gun fan. Austin may have more. No movie theatre in SA that I've been to has had one. I do see 51% signs at some bars. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

July 7, 2013, 07:58 AM	#2
Old Stony Senior Member Join Date: May 31, 2013 Location: East Texas Posts: 1,705	I have not heard of definite instances of this, but I would think any public entrance would have to be posted to meet the level of legality. I think I would be careful if I were to want to come in the back door of a bar, as it is obviously a place that police could make things difficult for you. Even if you are right and legal, the burden to prove it will ultimately fall on you. Bottom line to avoid anything that will end up with you hiring a lawyer....you will lose even if you win.....

July 7, 2013, 08:05 AM	#3
dwwhite Senior Member Join Date: December 9, 2008 Location: Southwest Tx Posts: 187	This thread may belong in the legal section rather than general handgun... I'm not a lawyer, and this shouldn't be construed as informed advice. This is some guy anonymously posting on an Internet forum... In Texas: If the state mandated 30.06 sign is not posted in clear view at the entrances of the building, legally you can enter while carrying a legal concealed firearm. This assumes that it is one of the few types of property where carry is prevented by law, such as schools, hospitals, federal buildings, rodeo grounds (really) etc. However, in the event of an arrest/prosecution, a police officer or judge is likely to take a dim view of your actions if you had to walk past one or more well marked entrances so that you could sneak in an unmarked back door. Also remember that in Texas, the property owner can compel you to leave, with police assistance if necessary, for carrying a concealed firearm against their wishes, even where legal. They may not be able to bring weapons charges, but they can make you leave the premises. All of this applies if you get caught. Be discreet. Also, I make every effort to avoid businesses that have any type of no carry policy, whether said policy is legal or not. They obviously don't want my business so I choose to spend my money elsewhere. Edit: Stony beat me to the punch, using half the words to do it.

July 7, 2013, 01:26 PM	#5
Rjeezie Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 232	TO be honest, this isn't so I can be "sneaky" and try to go through back doors and stuff and be a rebel, it's just a question to understand. For instance, I know a building that has a large front entrance with the 30.06, 2 side entrances with it, but then it has one other side entrance that doesn't have it. My question was if somebody carried through that entrance, legally, they would be justifiable since there was no sign, even though the other entrances did have it.

July 7, 2013, 08:05 PM	#10
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Just addressing Section 30.06 and not any of the other parts of Texas law (51% sign, Section 30.05, places prohibited to CHLs), Section 30.06 provides that if a property owner wants to prohibit lawful carry they must give notice - either verbal or written. There are two ways to give written notice - either a card or other handout or a sign. Both must have very specific language. According to the statute however, there is no requirement that the sign be posted on every entrance. The statute only requires the sign be posted conspicuously and meet the statutory requirements. I think a CHL who entered through a non-posted entrance and who was unaware the property was posted would have a good case that he did not have notice; however, to the best of my knowledge that issue has never been litigated. And of course, if a web forum post or conversation with officers revealed the person DID have notice; but just entered through an unposted door, that would be a bad set of facts for the defense. Fair warning though, if it isn't in black and white in the statute, don't be surprised if officers decide to arrest and let the courts sort it out. My recommendation would be that if you are aware the property is posted, you shouldn't carry there. In fact, I'd avoid giving my money to bigots entirely; but that is just me.

July 8, 2013, 01:17 PM	#14
bikerbill Senior Member Join Date: September 19, 2007 Location: Lago Vista TX Posts: 2,425	Thanks, Glenn ... great resource ... got it bookmarked ... __________________ "The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants." Albert Camus

July 17, 2013, 11:26 AM	#15
wxl Member Join Date: November 8, 2005 Location: Texas Posts: 81	I have seen many 30.06 signs on Federal buildings, court houses and most hospitals I have been to visit patients in Dallas, Garland, San Antonio, Corpus Christi, Austin,.... Regarding not seeing a posted sign, I was advised in my CHL class you will probably lose in court if the facility fell into the category you received instruction in a typical CHL class (plus you suppose to know the regs even tho YOUR CHL class did not cover specificallY). If the facility states there had been a sign but could have been removed is generally accepted as having been posted. The facility is not required to routinely inspect for previously posted signs.

July 19, 2013, 12:00 AM	#16
Sgt Pepper Senior Member Join Date: August 19, 2001 Location: Texas Posts: 811	A couple notes: Just to clarify: a CHL holder is prohibited at all times from carrying on premises of a 51%+ business, high school/collegiate/pro sporting event (unless somehow participating with a firearm), or correctional facility regardless whether or not a sign is posted. NO EXCEPTION. NO SIGN REQUIRED. See Penal Code 46.035. While the law requires these places to have the 51% signs, failure to properly post that sign does not grant CHL holders the right to carry on such premises unlike hospitals, churches, amusement parks, and government meetings. The law does not say that the 30.06 signs must be posted at every possible entrance to a property, but just that a sign must be posted "on the property." Cute and clever does not necessarily equal prudent or wise. Let me ask you this question: the law requires that the 30.06 sign be in both english and spanish. If you are an english speaker and the sign is only in english, have you received notice or can you just stroll past the sign?

July 19, 2013, 07:40 AM	#17
Rjeezie Senior Member Join Date: July 21, 2010 Location: Dallas, TX Posts: 232	Just to clarify... again... I'm not looking for a way to be "sneaky" "cute or clever" or anything like. I'm trying to make sure I'm properly understand the laws...

July 19, 2013, 03:27 PM	#21
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	The literal wording of the statute is that the sign must be posted "in a conspicuous manner." However, I've yet to find a case where the specific details of 30.06 signs has made it into one of the legal reporters. Without guidance from the courts, I imagine whatever local departmental guidance officers receive and their own individual judgment will determine whether an arrest is made.