44 mag rifle VS. Pistol

[billyboy21]

I've seen all the reload data on 44 mag pistol loads, and they all use pretty fast burning powder. I'm shooting an 1894 44 mag, and don't see the need for a fast powder since it's a 24" barrel. So why not load some LEVERevolution instead. It's the best stuff since sliced bread for a 30-30..so why not in a 44 mag rifle?
BTW I use a 240 grain cast swc.

[SVO]

Most 44 mag loads use AA-9, WW-296 or H-110 and those are slow burning pistol powders. Those may be fast burning compared to powders used in a 30-30, but. I doubt that powder used for the 30-30 would be suitable for the 44 Mag.

[buck460XVR]

If you ask the distributor of LEVERevolution powder, Hodgdon, they will tell you that it is a specialized powder that works well only in a very few calibers. Powders listed in manuals for .44 mag are what works well in them. If LEVERevolution isn't listed, there's a reason for it. Believe me, if Hodgdon thought it would work as well as it's other powders in .44 mag they would list it in their online reloading data......but they don't.

[Airman Basic]

My 4227 loads with a boolit installed pretty much fills the 44 case. Don't see much to gain with a slower powder.

[rg1]

Slow burning pistol powders such as H110/Win 296 are about 60 on the burn rate chart while leverrevolution is about 100. Doubt if you could get enough leverrevolution powder stuffed in a 44 Mag case to get the right pressure and velocity?

[PawPaw]

Even though the powders used in the .44 magnum are (relatively) fast powders as compared to rifle powders, it doesn't mean that the gases are wasted. In the rifle, those gases continue to expand and drive the bullet faster than can be found in the pistol. For example. If you go to the Hodgdon website, you'll find that in the pistol, 24.0 grains of H110 drives a 240 Nosler JHP to 1522 fps. Nothing to sneeze at, but if you go to the rifle data, you'll find that same load pushes that same bullet to 1817 fps, almost a 300 fps difference between the rifle and the pistol.

A 240 grain bullet traveling 1800+fps will leave a mark when it hits something.

[AlaskaMike]

Don't get hung up on barrel length when considering what powder to use for a given cartridge.

A bottleneck cartridge uses much slower powder than straight-walled pistol cartridges due largely to the bottleneck shape of the brass. You can see this when you compare load data for really 'overbore' cartridges like the Weatherby Mags vs. data for .30-06, and then also .30-06 to .45-70.

That said, I did experiment briefly using H4198 in my .44 Mag Rossi 92 with 300 grain cast bullets. As expected, lower velocities, but accuracy was very good.

Mike

[Nick_C_S]

A 240 grain bullet traveling 1800+fps will leave a mark when it hits something.

Even at 1500 fps, for that matter.

Which is the point of my post: Why? Once you're getting into the 1400-1500 fps neighborhood - and beyond - even a soft point bullet is going to mushroom out beautifully. You've basically reached the terminal usefulness of the bullet. There's no point in pushing it any further. Never mind the possibility of exceeding the bullet's structural integrity capabilities at super-high velocities.

Powders common for loading 44 Mag pistol (W296/H110; 4227, N110, etc) will also be excellent choices for rifle.

Speer makes no load distinction with their load data between pistol and rifle - only the velocity results are different (different test barrels, obviously). I'm thinking the engineers at Speer know a thing or two, and I wouldn't be so bold as to second-guess them.

[Rifleman1776]

I have loaded many thousands of rounds of .44 mag. for both pistol and rifle. I believe if you want to use a rifle, use a rifle round. There is minimal gain going from a pistol to a rifle if using a pistol round.
You can't change a pistol round into a rifle round by different loading. Just use proven loads and go with it.
p.s. If you are using a Marlin you have to stick with slightly below max. loads anyhow. DAMHIK

[Salmoneye]

If you are using a Marlin you have to stick with slightly below max. loads anyhow.

Please do explain where you are getting this...

[saleen322]

My little 44 mag handi rifle does great with the 2400 and 240 cast gas check SWC bullet. 2400 is not that slow and that little rifle groups under 2" @ 50 yards with it.

[oldscot3]

Case capacity is a factor... h110 is slow , not fast , for a case that size. Get a 444 and then you'll be into the powders you're talking about.

[buck460XVR]

Originally posted by Rifleman1776:

I have loaded many thousands of rounds of .44 mag. for both pistol and rifle. I believe if you want to use a rifle, use a rifle round. There is minimal gain going from a pistol to a rifle if using a pistol round.

p.s. If you are using a Marlin you have to stick with slightly below max. loads anyhow.

According to Lyman, the difference between a carbine and a revolver with a max load of H110 under a 240gr JHP is 500+ FPS. 1233 FPS VS 1745 FPS. That is a increase of 42%. No really what I would call minimal. Add to that, most folks can shoot a rifle/carbine more accurately and consistently than a revolver. There are also areas where one cannot legally use a bottle neck rifle cartridge for hunting, but can use a handgun caliber cartridge in a rifle for hunting the same species. Using a carbine as opposed to a revolver in those areas can mean the difference between taking game or lettin' it walk. My son and I both have Marlin Levers and shoot the same max loads outta them as I do outta my PC 629 and my Ruger 77/44. Been doin' it for years and thousands of rounds. Have yet to have a problem.

[Rifleman1776]

Salmoneye, personal experience and Marlin (when it was Marlin owned) instructions that come with the rifle.
Handloads just wouldn't shoot. Couldn't hit paper at 25 yards from a bench and those that did hit by accident were keyholing. I don't understand it but that is what happened. Factory loads shot OK. IMHO, it was the micro-groove rifling that was at fault. Same loads from Ruger Redhawk could hit the Ram at 200 meters consistently.

[Salmoneye]

Salmoneye, personal experience and Marlin (when it was Marlin owned) instructions that come with the rifle.
Handloads just wouldn't shoot. Couldn't hit paper at 25 yards from a bench and those that did hit by accident were keyholing. I don't understand it but that is what happened. Factory loads shot OK. IMHO, it was the micro-groove rifling that was at fault. Same loads from Ruger Redhawk could hit the Ram at 200 meters consistently.

The 1990 copy of the Marlin 1894 owner's manual that I have sitting in front of me says nothing whatsoever about 'lower than max loads'...

The issue that most people are not aware of with .44 Magnum in a rifle is that the SAAMI specs for the bore and groove are NOT the same as for .44 Magnum pistols...

SAAMI specs for groove diameter for pistols is .429", while that of the rifle is .431"...

Factory loads shot OK. IMHO

Exactly my experience...Just OK...Barely...

The only way to get the most out of an 1894 in .44 is to hand load for it...Mine will not shoot .429" or .4295" jacketed for snot...The only jacketed bullets that are accurate in my gun are Hornady that come in at .430"...

For cast, I need a minimum of .432" in order to group...

None of this has anything to do with the Marlin 1894 not being able to take max SAAMI pressure loads...

My best jacketed load is from the Hornady 4th manual...265gr FP over 22gr of H110...This load is below max (slightly) in that edition, and is safe in MY guns...It will one ragged hole all day at 50 yardsa with a peep sight...

I do not have access to newer editions, so I can not speak to the current recommendation...

[Slamfire]

I tested H110/W296 in my M1894 and the powders shot well. After comparing the velocities for charge weight, that is when I came to the conclusion H110/W296 wre the same powder.

Never tried leverevolution powder, if you get more velocity with less pressure, go for it.

M1894 Marlin Ballard Barrel				
				
240 Speer JHP 22.0 grs 2400 CCI 500	
21-Dec-01	T = 54  °F			
				
Ave Vel =1747			
Std Dev =21			
ES =68			
Low =1717			
High =1785			
N =7			
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1725			
Std Dev =7			
ES =21			
Low =1715		
High =1736			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs W296 WLP Fed cases
23-Mar-05T = 65° F			
Ave Vel =1752			
Std Dev =12			
ES =28		
Low =1735			
High =1763			
N =5		 	 
				
				
240 Nosler JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1710			
Std Dev =3		
ES =9			
Low =1705			
High =1714			
N =5		 	 
				

				
240 Nosler JHP 24.5 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05 T = 65° F			
				
Ave Vel =1745			
Std Dev =12			
ES =45			
Low =1723			
High =1768			
N =10			
				
				
240 Rem JHP 24.0 grs H110 WLP Midway cases
23-Mar-05	T = 65° F			
			
Ave Vel =1719			
Std Dev =10			
ES =29		
Low =1705			
High =1734			
N =10		 	 
				


S&W M629-4 	5" Barrel						
250 LSWC 22.0 grs 2400 Midway cases, Fed primers			
1-Oct-95	T = 75 °F				
					
Ave Vel =	1336	 			 
Std Dev =	39				
ES =	108	 			
Low =	1286				
High =	1394				
N =	6

240JHP R-P 24.0 grs H110 Midway cases WLP		
9-Oct-05	T = 66 °F					
Ave Vel =1228					
Std Dev =21.47					
ES =70.16					
Low =1268				
High =1197				
N=22

[Rifleman1776]

Salmoneye, you have proven the Marlin rifle needs special loads and rounds to shoot acceptably. The bullets I used for the Redhawk were simply off the shelf marked for the .44 mag./.429. Handloads never worked in the Marlin. Worthless rifle to own or shoot, in my experience. Somewhere I did see where Marlin stated to use only factory loads and not reduced handloads.

[Airman Basic]

I've found several loads that work well in a 629, SBH and 94 microgrooved Marlin. Roundnose Lee and SWC RCBS, both 240ish, sized .432 cast boolits. From 8 grains of Unique to 25 grains of 4227. Accurate in all 3. The roundnose does slip through the lever action slicker. Minute of 3 inch dueling tree at 50 to a hundred yards. Okay, not every time at a hundred.

[Salmoneye]

Salmoneye, you have proven the Marlin rifle needs special loads and rounds to shoot acceptably. The bullets I used for the Redhawk were simply off the shelf marked for the .44 mag./.429. Handloads never worked in the Marlin. Worthless rifle to own or shoot, in my experience. Somewhere I did see where Marlin stated to use only factory loads and not reduced handloads.

I have seen a number of people that were unaware of the SAAMI differences between .44 mag pistol and rifle do the same as you, and sell an otherwise fine rifle...

As the Marlin 1894(S) is designed to also shoot .44SPCL, I find it funny anyone would believe that they could not shoot reduced .44 Mag loads...

I have a suspicion that you are confusing some other gun such as the Ruger Deerfield semi-auto, which will not reliably cycle without near max loads...

Other than a caution on .44SPCL length, this is all the current 1894 Manual has to say about 'handloads':

•WARNING: Marlin firearms are designed
and manufactured to handle standard
factory-loaded ammunition which con-
forms to SAAMI (Sporting Arms and
Ammunition Manufacturers’ Institute Inc.)
standards with dependability and safety.
Due to the many bullet and load options
available, the element of judgement
involved, the skill required, and the fact
that serious injuries have resulted from
dangerous handloads, Marlin does not
make any recommendations with regard
to handloaded ammunition.

[Clark]

I have been shooting a 1988 Smith and Wesson 29-4 and a 1962 Ruger carbine for 17 and 14 years respectively.

24 gr H110/W296 240 gr JHP roll crimp into the cannelure, has always been accurate and gets the job done.... for both the revolver and the rifle.

[458winshooter]

Have you tried Lil'Gun yet?I have read in several gun rags that it gives better velocity in rifles for 357 and 44 mag rifles than H-110/W296 in the light to standard weight boolits.It does loose its gains if heavy for caliber boolits are used.

[Clark]

LIL'GUN can squeeze out more velocity in some applications, 32S&W Long 85 gr and 45 auto Rim 300 gr 1.555" OAL.

But generally it is not worth it, as it does not smell as good as H110.