US Infantry (Army and Marine) Side Arm Carry

RC20 · May 8, 2021, 01:49 PM

I know the M19/17 is the issue semi auto (I am old school term wise) but I don't find any references to the issue of those to Infantry.

It seems many of the Infantry you see carry a Semi Auto (whatever mfg) but is it standard or a personal choice?

I know standard for other troops (but I believe officers are now being shifted to a whatever the service rifle is no a Semi Auto in place of .

L-2 · May 8, 2021, 02:50 PM

I believe the "M19" is a fictional handgun from the video game world. See:
https://callofduty.fandom.com/wiki/M19

When it comes to weapons in the military ("infantry"), there are very few personal choices. Semiauto is the standard when it comes to U.S. military handguns; recently shifting from the Beretta M9 to the SIG M17 or M18 depending on branch and unit, with Glock (G19 various gens) being used by some units.

For post 1, the 3rd sentence could use some rewriting/rephrasing/editing.
("I know standard for other troops (but I believe officers are now being shifted to a whatever the service rifle is no a Semi Auto in place of .")
I can't understand what's being said.

Perhaps someone could answer to what extent do various job/functions (e.g. rifleman, doctor, nurse, tank crew, artillery, aircrew, ships, service branch differences, how the mission and at what rank does a unit decide on what weapons to carry on that mission/activity):

-qualify with a handgun and at what time interval to requalify (I imagine everyone must qualify annually to always be readily deployable at a moment's notice, but someone please clarify my guesses to this matter)

-get issued a handgun and/or when/what circumstances

-if qualified/allowed, to what extent is it optional to carry/checkout-from-armory, vs. just carrying the rifle/carbine.

Me: I've forgotten more than I remember; spent 5 years in DoD, but was never in the military. In LE, I qualified 2x/year (other depts. might qualify 3 or 4x/year). I qualified with all weapons I was allowed to carry. Only the Glock handgun, G22gen3, later G17gen4, were mandated to carry all-the-time-on-duty, with other weapons might either be mandated or at-my-discretion. Some special weapons (e.g. shotgun, rifle, less-lethal) could be decided upon during a quick meeting/huddle.

JJ45 · May 8, 2021, 06:16 PM

BUT "WarDaddy" (Brad Pitt) carried a S&W 1917 as a Sherman commander in the movie "Fury"...I know that the 1917, either S&W or Colt, were general issue but I don't know about the custom Sweetheart grips

RC20 · May 8, 2021, 06:30 PM

I know what the general issue is, its who they issue them to?

In this case is it standard issue to infantry? (Army, Mainers or both)

Nanuk · May 8, 2021, 07:54 PM

I was unaware infantry had handguns. I carried a 1911 as an Army MP.

603Country · May 8, 2021, 08:01 PM

And I carried a 1911 in the Marine MP’s. And 5 bullets. That’s all we were allowed to have.

Cyanide971 · May 8, 2021, 08:40 PM

I was Marine Infantry from 89-95, with two years spent in Security Forces (afloat). In MCSF all of us in the actual security detachment carried an M9 w/three mags and one in the pipe as backup to either our M16A2 w/ four mags or M590 w/ twenty-two rounds of 00 Buck and five slugs.

In my regular grunt units, the only M9’s we saw were carried by our Corpsmen and the gunners in a machinegun team, w/two mags each. As for other MOS’s, I can only speak from secondhand word from friends who were MPs, and they carried the M9 with three magazines and one in the pipe also. Beyond that, no impact, no idea.

RetiredMajor · May 9, 2021, 01:45 PM

I'm a retired Infantry Officer. I carried an M4 Carbine and an M9 Beretta with extra mags.

**44 AMP** · May 9, 2021, 01:56 PM

I served in the Army in the 70s (and with the Marines in AIT school) as a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) and also served as assistant and unit armorer in my duty companies.

Items of equipment change, in this case weapons, but the SOP rarely does or does so slowly.

First off, understand that the is a double standard. There is an official set of rules and then there is the flexibility allowed by unit commanders in combat.

Who gets what firearm is determined by the unit TO&E (table of organization and equipment) and in garrison (stateside, peacetime, etc) there is damn little deviation allowed.

IF the TO&E says 2nd Plt ldr gets a rifle, he gets a rifle, even if he wants a pistol. If it says assistant MG gunner gets a pistol, they get a pistol, which ever one is the current issue standard. When I was in, the pistol was the 1911A1, today its a 9mm. Doesn't change the TO&E (just what name is in the equipment block)

Personal (and privately owned) handguns are strictly verboten. This is the standard rule and the one rule most often ignored by COs on the sharp end. Smart commanders allow troops in "indian country" a fair amount of latitude that is not allowed outside of combat areas.

SOP for carry (all weapons) outside of actual combat ops was always chamber EMPTY. IF you were caught whith a round in the chamber, you were in for all kinds of crap, possibly up to an Article 15.

Again, this is in "secure" areas, and could be different at forward firebases, at the CO's direction.

Forget what "Wardaddy" had in a movie, tis a BS movie, not a factual documentary.

Be aware that despite the official rules there are a lot of things that happen and the brass just looks the other way, if they see them at all.

I knew a senior SSG who carried his own, personal, private, civilian Colt Govt Model. No one ever said a word to him about it. I spotted it because I got a glimpse of the gold Colt medallion on the grip. went and checked, and sure enough the M16A1 that he was supposed to have was still sitting in the arms room rack. Fortunately, I was, at the time, experienced enough to keep my mouth shut. Had I made an issue of it, I'm sure he would have gotten a little crap, but I KNOW i would have caught buckets of it, ...unofficially..

Hopes this helps you get a handle on things. There are the official rules, and there is what troops get away with, and they can be quite different, depending on the local commanders and their attitudes.

Long Beard · May 10, 2021, 11:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JJ45

BUT "WarDaddy" (Brad Pitt) carried a S&W 1917 as a Sherman commander in the movie "Fury"...I know that the 1917, either S&W or Colt, were general issue but I don't know about the custom Sweetheart grips

Oh great, now I've got a reason to watch the movie again.

Long Beard · May 10, 2021, 11:11 AM

Not sure. Myself, I've got an Auto Ordinance 1911 which, apparently KAR bought them out, and tried a general search on the serial number to see if it was perhaps a military issue at one time. WWII or Korea?

**44 AMP** · May 10, 2021, 11:44 AM

Quote:

. Myself, I've got an Auto Ordinance 1911 which, apparently KAR bought them out, and tried a general search on the serial number to see if it was perhaps a military issue at one time. WWII or Korea

Highly unlikely your Auto Ordinance gun saw military service, anywhere...

The last large scale purchase orders for 1911A1s were canceled in 1945. WWII production left the military (all branches) with enough 1911A1s to serve in Korea, Viet Nam, and up through the 1980s when they were replaced with 9mms.

Essentially, Auto Ordinance didn't start making their 1911A1 pattern guns until about 35-40 years after the US military stopped buying them, so its doubtful your commercial gun ever saw military use.

ghbucky · May 10, 2021, 12:02 PM

I have a followup sort of question: how are armaments generally handled in the PMCs? Do they have individual discretion, or is it generally the contractor that dictates the equipment?

**Aguila Blanca** · May 10, 2021, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Long Beard

Not sure. Myself, I've got an Auto Ordinance 1911 which, apparently KAR bought them out, and tried a general search on the serial number to see if it was perhaps a military issue at one time. WWII or Korea?

No Auto-Ordnance 1911 was ever U.S. military issue.

RC20 · May 10, 2021, 03:29 PM

It seems 44 AMP has answered it reasonably clearly.

Again the question was (or maybe should have been) has the Issue TO changed and is a semi auto issued (I am assuming an M-18 for standard)

I gather no, but on the pointy end for which I am talking about (which is infantry) wold be they can procure their own and if they do, probably 9mm to match ammo available (or I sure would)

JustJake · May 10, 2021, 05:38 PM

Real Marines carry Colt M45A1s.

Sharkbite · May 10, 2021, 05:46 PM

Quote:

I have a followup sort of question: how are armaments generally handled in the PMCs?

I worked contracts for DoS and OGA for almost 10year. All those had GFE (Govt furnished equipment). Weapon, ammo, armor, vehicles...everything. However my first contract was a “bridging” contract held by a British company. That contract allowed the contractor to buy weapons on the local market. We were allowed to buy our own (AK’s) and equip em as we liked. I paid $200 for a Russian milled AK WITH 10 loaded mags. Fitted an Eo-tech and a sure fire light

When i left the contract, i sold that rifle to one of our terps for what i paid.

highpower3006 · May 11, 2021, 08:24 AM

I have a M17 that was issued to a M240B gunner in B Co, 1/37 101 ABN.

ghbucky · May 11, 2021, 08:27 AM

Sharkbite, TY

SIGSHR · May 11, 2021, 10:52 AM

I told my troops when I was in the National Guard, don't bother with personally owned weapons, Uncle Sam won't fix it when it breaks, if something happens to, you have to be medevaced, you can forget about seeing it again.

Desmosedici · May 14, 2021, 06:08 PM

JustJake do they still carry those? I thought I read somewhere they ditched them due to unreliability.

Cyanide971 · May 14, 2021, 07:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Desmosedici

JustJake do they still carry those? I thought I read somewhere they ditched them due to unreliability.

Not necessarily for reliability…

https://www.military.com/kitup/2016/...s-raiders.html

And last time I checked, I was a real Marine when I stepped across the parade deck back in ‘89. LOL

JustJake · May 14, 2021, 08:44 PM

Quote:

And last time I checked, I was a real Marine when I stepped across the parade deck back in ‘89.

Parade-tasked Marines are just as important to the Corp as fighting Marines.

Cyanide971 · May 14, 2021, 09:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JustJake

Parade-tasked Marines are just as important to the Corp as fighting Marines.

Oh, like when I was an Assaultman from 89-95?

Cirdan · May 14, 2021, 10:10 PM

We provided the guns. Westerners generally got Berettas and M4's. TCNs (Ugandans for us) usually got AK 47s and CZ's. PKMs for machine guns.

All weapons had to be shipped to Iraq/Afghanistan as "temporary" exports. When the contracts were up, the local government stole them.

May 8, 2021, 01:49 PM	#1
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	US Infantry (Army and Marine) Side Arm Carry I know the M19/17 is the issue semi auto (I am old school term wise) but I don't find any references to the issue of those to Infantry. It seems many of the Infantry you see carry a Semi Auto (whatever mfg) but is it standard or a personal choice? I know standard for other troops (but I believe officers are now being shifted to a whatever the service rifle is no a Semi Auto in place of . __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

May 8, 2021, 02:50 PM	#2
L-2 Senior Member Join Date: September 8, 2004 Location: Nevada Posts: 523	I believe the "M19" is a fictional handgun from the video game world. See: https://callofduty.fandom.com/wiki/M19 When it comes to weapons in the military ("infantry"), there are very few personal choices. Semiauto is the standard when it comes to U.S. military handguns; recently shifting from the Beretta M9 to the SIG M17 or M18 depending on branch and unit, with Glock (G19 various gens) being used by some units. For post 1, the 3rd sentence could use some rewriting/rephrasing/editing. ("I know standard for other troops (but I believe officers are now being shifted to a whatever the service rifle is no a Semi Auto in place of .") I can't understand what's being said. Perhaps someone could answer to what extent do various job/functions (e.g. rifleman, doctor, nurse, tank crew, artillery, aircrew, ships, service branch differences, how the mission and at what rank does a unit decide on what weapons to carry on that mission/activity): -qualify with a handgun and at what time interval to requalify (I imagine everyone must qualify annually to always be readily deployable at a moment's notice, but someone please clarify my guesses to this matter) -get issued a handgun and/or when/what circumstances -if qualified/allowed, to what extent is it optional to carry/checkout-from-armory, vs. just carrying the rifle/carbine. Me: I've forgotten more than I remember; spent 5 years in DoD, but was never in the military. In LE, I qualified 2x/year (other depts. might qualify 3 or 4x/year). I qualified with all weapons I was allowed to carry. Only the Glock handgun, G22gen3, later G17gen4, were mandated to carry all-the-time-on-duty, with other weapons might either be mandated or at-my-discretion. Some special weapons (e.g. shotgun, rifle, less-lethal) could be decided upon during a quick meeting/huddle. __________________ (former) Glock Armorer 1911 Armorer LEO (retired) Last edited by L-2; May 8, 2021 at 03:16 PM.

May 8, 2021, 06:30 PM	#4
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	I know what the general issue is, its who they issue them to? In this case is it standard issue to infantry? (Army, Mainers or both) __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

May 8, 2021, 07:54 PM	#5
Nanuk Senior Member Join Date: January 2, 2005 Location: Where the deer and the antelope roam. Posts: 3,082	I was unaware infantry had handguns. I carried a 1911 as an Army MP. __________________ Retired Law Enforcement U. S. Army Veteran Armorer My rifle and pistol are tools, I am the weapon.

May 9, 2021, 01:45 PM	#8
RetiredMajor Senior Member Join Date: January 20, 2008 Location: Dubuque, Iowa Posts: 456	I'm a retired Infantry Officer. I carried an M4 Carbine and an M9 Beretta with extra mags. __________________ RetiredMajor, NRA Certified Instructor Every day's a holiday and every meal's a feast!

May 8, 2021, 06:16 PM	#3
JJ45 Senior Member Join Date: June 8, 2015 Posts: 908	BUT "WarDaddy" (Brad Pitt) carried a S&W 1917 as a Sherman commander in the movie "Fury"...I know that the 1917, either S&W or Colt, were general issue but I don't know about the custom Sweetheart grips

May 8, 2021, 08:01 PM	#6
603Country Senior Member Join Date: January 6, 2011 Location: Thornton, Texas Posts: 3,998	And I carried a 1911 in the Marine MP’s. And 5 bullets. That’s all we were allowed to have.

May 8, 2021, 08:40 PM	#7
Cyanide971 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2014 Posts: 725	I was Marine Infantry from 89-95, with two years spent in Security Forces (afloat). In MCSF all of us in the actual security detachment carried an M9 w/three mags and one in the pipe as backup to either our M16A2 w/ four mags or M590 w/ twenty-two rounds of 00 Buck and five slugs. In my regular grunt units, the only M9’s we saw were carried by our Corpsmen and the gunners in a machinegun team, w/two mags each. As for other MOS’s, I can only speak from secondhand word from friends who were MPs, and they carried the M9 with three magazines and one in the pipe also. Beyond that, no impact, no idea.

May 9, 2021, 01:56 PM	#9
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 28,839	I served in the Army in the 70s (and with the Marines in AIT school) as a Small Arms Repairman (MOS 45B20) and also served as assistant and unit armorer in my duty companies. Items of equipment change, in this case weapons, but the SOP rarely does or does so slowly. First off, understand that the is a double standard. There is an official set of rules and then there is the flexibility allowed by unit commanders in combat. Who gets what firearm is determined by the unit TO&E (table of organization and equipment) and in garrison (stateside, peacetime, etc) there is damn little deviation allowed. IF the TO&E says 2nd Plt ldr gets a rifle, he gets a rifle, even if he wants a pistol. If it says assistant MG gunner gets a pistol, they get a pistol, which ever one is the current issue standard. When I was in, the pistol was the 1911A1, today its a 9mm. Doesn't change the TO&E (just what name is in the equipment block) Personal (and privately owned) handguns are strictly verboten. This is the standard rule and the one rule most often ignored by COs on the sharp end. Smart commanders allow troops in "indian country" a fair amount of latitude that is not allowed outside of combat areas. SOP for carry (all weapons) outside of actual combat ops was always chamber EMPTY. IF you were caught whith a round in the chamber, you were in for all kinds of crap, possibly up to an Article 15. Again, this is in "secure" areas, and could be different at forward firebases, at the CO's direction. Forget what "Wardaddy" had in a movie, tis a BS movie, not a factual documentary. Be aware that despite the official rules there are a lot of things that happen and the brass just looks the other way, if they see them at all. I knew a senior SSG who carried his own, personal, private, civilian Colt Govt Model. No one ever said a word to him about it. I spotted it because I got a glimpse of the gold Colt medallion on the grip. went and checked, and sure enough the M16A1 that he was supposed to have was still sitting in the arms room rack. Fortunately, I was, at the time, experienced enough to keep my mouth shut. Had I made an issue of it, I'm sure he would have gotten a little crap, but I KNOW i would have caught buckets of it, ...unofficially.. Hopes this helps you get a handle on things. There are the official rules, and there is what troops get away with, and they can be quite different, depending on the local commanders and their attitudes. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

May 10, 2021, 11:11 AM	#11
Long Beard Member Join Date: May 5, 2021 Posts: 15	Not sure. Myself, I've got an Auto Ordinance 1911 which, apparently KAR bought them out, and tried a general search on the serial number to see if it was perhaps a military issue at one time. WWII or Korea?

May 10, 2021, 12:02 PM	#13
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	I have a followup sort of question: how are armaments generally handled in the PMCs? Do they have individual discretion, or is it generally the contractor that dictates the equipment?

May 10, 2021, 03:29 PM	#15
RC20 Senior Member Join Date: April 10, 2008 Location: Alaska Posts: 7,014	It seems 44 AMP has answered it reasonably clearly. Again the question was (or maybe should have been) has the Issue TO changed and is a semi auto issued (I am assuming an M-18 for standard) I gather no, but on the pointy end for which I am talking about (which is infantry) wold be they can procure their own and if they do, probably 9mm to match ammo available (or I sure would) __________________ Science and Facts are True whether you believe it or not

May 10, 2021, 05:38 PM	#16
JustJake Senior Member Join Date: August 12, 2020 Posts: 497	Real Marines carry Colt M45A1s. __________________ I use the Jake Brake every chance I get. Don't care if it annoys you. Hear me now?!

May 11, 2021, 08:24 AM	#18
highpower3006 Senior Member Join Date: July 30, 2011 Location: Savannah TN Posts: 1,220	I have a M17 that was issued to a M240B gunner in B Co, 1/37 101 ABN.

May 11, 2021, 08:27 AM	#19
ghbucky Senior Member Join Date: June 12, 2020 Posts: 1,177	Sharkbite, TY

May 11, 2021, 10:52 AM	#20
SIGSHR Senior Member Join Date: September 13, 2005 Posts: 4,700	I told my troops when I was in the National Guard, don't bother with personally owned weapons, Uncle Sam won't fix it when it breaks, if something happens to, you have to be medevaced, you can forget about seeing it again.

May 14, 2021, 06:08 PM	#21
Desmosedici Member Join Date: April 1, 2016 Location: North Texas Posts: 72	JustJake do they still carry those? I thought I read somewhere they ditched them due to unreliability.

May 14, 2021, 10:10 PM	#25
Cirdan Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2013 Location: Tahoe Posts: 363	We provided the guns. Westerners generally got Berettas and M4's. TCNs (Ugandans for us) usually got AK 47s and CZ's. PKMs for machine guns. All weapons had to be shipped to Iraq/Afghanistan as "temporary" exports. When the contracts were up, the local government stole them.