How would you carry a Sig P210?

Handy · January 16, 2005, 09:05 PM

The Sig P210 in thought by many to be the finest production autopistol made. It certainly is startingly accurate, and very reliable. It was the Swiss and Danish service pistol for 40 years. It is a single stack, single action (usually) in 9mm. If I could only own one gun, this would be on the short list.

Here's what a typical military one looks like: http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976510210.htm

It is not identical to other SA guns, like the 1911 in design or layout of controls. Here's the quandry:

Condition 1 carry: The safety is located forward, toward the front of the grip panel. It is not easy to reach for normal hands, and is stiff with a long travel. Mechanically, it simply blocks the trigger without doing anything to safe the sear or hammer. The sear and hammer hooks are rather robust, though.

Condition 2: The gun is equipped with an inertial firing pin, making it safe for hammer down carry. Of course, there is the worry about the act of lowering the hammer when the gun is first loaded, but if two hands are used this can be executed safety. Pros: The hammer is easier to reach than the safety, and is ambidextrous. Still allows the gun to be drawn, cocked and fired with only one hand (which is a very good thing.)

Condition 3: Certainly the safest way to carry that doesn't involve leaving the bullets at home. But, with external frame rails and a low profile slide, racking the slide under stress is not as simple as a 1911 or Sig 220. Plus, you now have to use both hands, one of which might not be available in a fight.

What would you do, and why? How do you combat the problems inherent in each carry mode?

Jehzsa · January 16, 2005, 09:46 PM

When in Switzerland do like the Swiss. Condition three. One is too cumbersome and time-consuming. Two, at some point is going to hurt someone, including the operator.

Grab the slide from the top, not from the side. Push with trigger hand. Release slide. Press trigger. If done correctly, fastest, safest method. If practiced frequently, namely at home while watching TV or reading a newspaper(unloaded, of course), ability almost equivalent to DA action performance can be achieved.

Jim Watson · January 16, 2005, 09:57 PM

I HAVE a P210. It is a well made and accurate pistol but it is NOT on the short list for Only Pistol because of its ergonomics. As you say, the thumb safety is nearly out of reach for my hand size. I will not depend on a Condition 2 or 3 gun for defense. Also the magazine catch is on the heel of the butt, is stiff to operate, and the magazines are tight to insert or remove. And it has a magazine disconnect. And the wrap-around wood grips are bulky for a single stack gun. And it still hammer bites many people, although not me. And the adjustable sights (Bought to bring mine up to -6 specs.) are too tight for speed.

I shot it at IDPA a little to prove to myself that the liabilities were greater than the assets as a combat pistol. But it is a fine target pistol.

All that stuff can be fixed for a couple thousand more dollars, though. I have a picture of a Novak SIG with extended safety, button magazine catch, solid backstrap, beavertail, and LoMount sights that I bet would be a good handling pistol.

Handy · January 16, 2005, 11:36 PM

Jim,

I 'fixed' quite a bit on my 210 as well, but for zero dollars. If you remove the mag safety (one screw under right grip) and put a lanyard on the mag release you can quickly drop a mag with just a tug. The mag safety is what keeps the mags from dropping free normally. The military plastic grips are a bit slimmer.

Since mine shoots to POA with the fixed sights I couldn't determine a reason to put adjustables on. 9mm shoots flat to 100 yards.

The point of this exercise is to determine how this military pistol is best carried, rather than just say "don't carry it".

Jim Watson · January 17, 2005, 10:37 AM

Well, most militaries carry in Condition 3 because the average soldier is not well trained with the sidearm. I don't see that changing.
How is the Beretta OFFICIALLY carried these days? Officially, not what somebody in "the sandbox" figures out for himself when he realizes that our democratic friends might take a shot at him.

MY P210 did not shoot to POA with the fixed sights, which soon fell out anyhow. Good idea on the magazine catch. My magazines are tight in the well before they ever get to the disconnect. Can't reach the safety anyhow.

Jehzsa · January 17, 2005, 10:43 AM

BTW, Bianchi x-15 vertical shoulder holsters. Thin shoulder leather today, but sure as heck never heard anyone having trouble with it with 1911s way back when.

SSgt Aston · January 17, 2005, 11:48 AM

Jim,

It depends on the branch of service. AF always carries it loaded, hammer down, safety off. Army has several different arming stances.

Handy · January 17, 2005, 01:24 PM

Everyone I know who carries (Navy Security and Marine Guard details) are officially and actually condition 2.

And I'm not really talking about what militaries have done. I'm saying: Here's a robust military gun - how would you carry it for best defense?

Handy · January 18, 2005, 04:03 PM

Anyone else got any thoughts?

DT Guy · January 18, 2005, 11:20 PM

How disappointing.

I've never handled a P210, but I always thought that safety looked PERFECTLY placed for the strong thumb.

Guess I can stop lusting for one now...not!

Larry

Seraph · January 18, 2005, 11:47 PM

If I were to carry this gun, I would carry it in a good OWB holster, at 4:00.

Handy · January 19, 2005, 12:43 AM

That's good, but not an answer to the question.

Ozzieman · January 19, 2005, 05:58 AM

Good friend of mine that owns a gun store in town caried got one in used, had few rounds put through it. Not NIB but close. Some one ordered 4 casses of cheep Russan 9mm and diddnt collect it.
So my friend dicided to have a little test, (Yes he can be nuts some times)
They have a small indoor range in the shop and it was a very slow day.
The 3 that were working that day took 6 magazines and the 4000 rounds and as fast as they could load they shot them through the SIG.
When it was to hot to touch the slide he just stuck it in a bucket of water and then sprayed it down with oil.
4000+ rounds, it got so hot that the slide discolored.
How many failures?
1 and it was a bullet failure, wouldnt go off no matter how mant tiimes you tried to fire it.
You can believe this story or not, I dont care.
But I saw the empties on the floor, him dip the gun in water and steam come out of the bucket.
I shot it several days later and was amazed it would still hold two inch groups.
The slide had that case hardened look from getting to hot.

larvatus · February 9, 2005, 06:29 AM

I carry my P210 with a round chambered, the hammer cocked, and the safety locked, in Mitch Rosen's 5JR and Premier belt holsters, and Josh Bulman's AIWB and HSH2 shoulder holster. I have two crossdraw holsters on order from Josh, in OWB and IWB designs. All but the first are, or will be, made out of black shell cordovan, with full lining. Lately I find myself favoring the ugly but effective single layer pancake design. At $80 from Bulman and $125 from Rosen, it's not prohibitively expensive for a P210 shooter. As an aside, the safety location, at the front of the grip panel, is a natural reach for my hands, sized 8 or medium for motorcycle gloves. There are aftermarket safety levers available from several Swiss and German makers, upgrading it with a built-up thumb pad or an ambidextrous lever setup.

FirstFreedom · February 9, 2005, 10:16 AM

For anyone who carries it C&L, do you envision yourself (and/or train) taking the safety off during the draw with the opposite (weak) hand?

Handy · February 9, 2005, 11:19 AM

'Lavartus',

Do you have a link to any of those aftermarket parts?

Have you given up on Sigforum?

larvatus · February 9, 2005, 12:19 PM

A range of custom SIG P210 parts can be found at Waffen-Oschatz:

Swiss shops such as GunFactory and Waffen Crottet tend to be slightly more tasteful:

I would look for a P210-8 safety lever before going for a custom configuration. Waffen Crottet assisted the SIG factory in Neuhausen in developing this model variation.

I still post on the Sigforum now and then.

FirstFreedom · February 9, 2005, 04:44 PM

OMG, Larvatus, that 210 is the coolest looking pistol I've ever seen (even if it doesn't have a trigger.

). Wow.

Handy · February 9, 2005, 04:52 PM

On some of those safety lever pictures, the detent holes are not in the standard spot, so those levers are not all compatible.

larvatus · February 9, 2005, 08:30 PM

This P210-8 safety lever looks standard in its operation. If so, it can be retrofitted without tools or gunsmithing.

The Waffen-Oschatz pistol does have a trigger installed. It is blued and hard to see in the digital photograph.

Handy · February 9, 2005, 08:37 PM

Well, that's good. The lever pictured on that 210-6 with the matching slide release has the displaced detents. They are much further aft than on the other guns.

larvatus · February 9, 2005, 09:09 PM

The P210-8 grips look shallower and flatter than those of the P210-6. Some fitting may be required.
Incidentally, Leon Crottet is famous for his fully functional firearm scale models:

Many of them are offered for sale by Bob Simpson, at prices that are anything but scaled down.

Darimian · June 3, 2021, 08:26 AM

Quote:

FirstFreedom
OMG, Larvatus, that 210 is the coolest looking pistol I've ever seen (even if it doesn't have a trigger. ). Wow.

@FirstFreedom:
... and another one "without" a proper trigger

https://hosting.photobucket.com/imag...=278&crop=fill

Willie Lowman · June 3, 2021, 03:00 PM

Did you really just bring back a thread from 2005 to @ someone who hasn't been on this board since 2007?

January 16, 2005, 09:05 PM	#1
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	How would you carry a Sig P210? (Not a holster question.) The Sig P210 in thought by many to be the finest production autopistol made. It certainly is startingly accurate, and very reliable. It was the Swiss and Danish service pistol for 40 years. It is a single stack, single action (usually) in 9mm. If I could only own one gun, this would be on the short list. Here's what a typical military one looks like: http://www.gunsamerica.com/guns/976510210.htm It is not identical to other SA guns, like the 1911 in design or layout of controls. Here's the quandry: Condition 1 carry: The safety is located forward, toward the front of the grip panel. It is not easy to reach for normal hands, and is stiff with a long travel. Mechanically, it simply blocks the trigger without doing anything to safe the sear or hammer. The sear and hammer hooks are rather robust, though. Condition 2: The gun is equipped with an inertial firing pin, making it safe for hammer down carry. Of course, there is the worry about the act of lowering the hammer when the gun is first loaded, but if two hands are used this can be executed safety. Pros: The hammer is easier to reach than the safety, and is ambidextrous. Still allows the gun to be drawn, cocked and fired with only one hand (which is a very good thing.) Condition 3: Certainly the safest way to carry that doesn't involve leaving the bullets at home. But, with external frame rails and a low profile slide, racking the slide under stress is not as simple as a 1911 or Sig 220. Plus, you now have to use both hands, one of which might not be available in a fight. What would you do, and why? How do you combat the problems inherent in each carry mode? Last edited by Handy; January 19, 2005 at 12:43 AM.

January 17, 2005, 11:48 AM	#7
SSgt Aston Member Join Date: October 30, 2004 Location: Iraq Posts: 53	Jim, It depends on the branch of service. AF always carries it loaded, hammer down, safety off. Army has several different arming stances. __________________ Don't take life too seriously, you'll never make it out alive.

January 18, 2005, 11:20 PM	#10
DT Guy Senior Member Join Date: February 4, 2001 Posts: 959	How disappointing. I've never handled a P210, but I always thought that safety looked PERFECTLY placed for the strong thumb. Guess I can stop lusting for one now...not! Larry __________________ He who fights and runs away had better run pretty damn fast. Government, Anarchy and Chaos

January 19, 2005, 05:58 AM	#13
Ozzieman Senior Member Join Date: December 14, 2004 Location: Northern Indiana Posts: 6,117	Little story about a 226 in 9mm Good friend of mine that owns a gun store in town caried got one in used, had few rounds put through it. Not NIB but close. Some one ordered 4 casses of cheep Russan 9mm and diddnt collect it. So my friend dicided to have a little test, (Yes he can be nuts some times) They have a small indoor range in the shop and it was a very slow day. The 3 that were working that day took 6 magazines and the 4000 rounds and as fast as they could load they shot them through the SIG. When it was to hot to touch the slide he just stuck it in a bucket of water and then sprayed it down with oil. 4000+ rounds, it got so hot that the slide discolored. How many failures? 1 and it was a bullet failure, wouldnt go off no matter how mant tiimes you tried to fire it. You can believe this story or not, I dont care. But I saw the empties on the floor, him dip the gun in water and steam come out of the bucket. I shot it several days later and was amazed it would still hold two inch groups. The slide had that case hardened look from getting to hot.

February 9, 2005, 06:29 AM	#14
larvatus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 925	I carry my P210 with a round chambered, the hammer cocked, and the safety locked, in Mitch Rosen's 5JR and Premier belt holsters, and Josh Bulman's AIWB and HSH2 shoulder holster. I have two crossdraw holsters on order from Josh, in OWB and IWB designs. All but the first are, or will be, made out of black shell cordovan, with full lining. Lately I find myself favoring the ugly but effective single layer pancake design. At $80 from Bulman and $125 from Rosen, it's not prohibitively expensive for a P210 shooter. As an aside, the safety location, at the front of the grip panel, is a natural reach for my hands, sized 8 or medium for motorcycle gloves. There are aftermarket safety levers available from several Swiss and German makers, upgrading it with a built-up thumb pad or an ambidextrous lever setup. Last edited by larvatus; February 9, 2005 at 08:01 AM.

January 16, 2005, 09:46 PM	#2
Jehzsa Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2004 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 756	When in Switzerland do like the Swiss. Condition three. One is too cumbersome and time-consuming. Two, at some point is going to hurt someone, including the operator. Grab the slide from the top, not from the side. Push with trigger hand. Release slide. Press trigger. If done correctly, fastest, safest method. If practiced frequently, namely at home while watching TV or reading a newspaper(unloaded, of course), ability almost equivalent to DA action performance can be achieved.

January 16, 2005, 09:57 PM	#3
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	I HAVE a P210. It is a well made and accurate pistol but it is NOT on the short list for Only Pistol because of its ergonomics. As you say, the thumb safety is nearly out of reach for my hand size. I will not depend on a Condition 2 or 3 gun for defense. Also the magazine catch is on the heel of the butt, is stiff to operate, and the magazines are tight to insert or remove. And it has a magazine disconnect. And the wrap-around wood grips are bulky for a single stack gun. And it still hammer bites many people, although not me. And the adjustable sights (Bought to bring mine up to -6 specs.) are too tight for speed. I shot it at IDPA a little to prove to myself that the liabilities were greater than the assets as a combat pistol. But it is a fine target pistol. All that stuff can be fixed for a couple thousand more dollars, though. I have a picture of a Novak SIG with extended safety, button magazine catch, solid backstrap, beavertail, and LoMount sights that I bet would be a good handling pistol.

January 16, 2005, 11:36 PM	#4
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Jim, I 'fixed' quite a bit on my 210 as well, but for zero dollars. If you remove the mag safety (one screw under right grip) and put a lanyard on the mag release you can quickly drop a mag with just a tug. The mag safety is what keeps the mags from dropping free normally. The military plastic grips are a bit slimmer. Since mine shoots to POA with the fixed sights I couldn't determine a reason to put adjustables on. 9mm shoots flat to 100 yards. The point of this exercise is to determine how this military pistol is best carried, rather than just say "don't carry it".

January 17, 2005, 10:37 AM	#5
Jim Watson Senior Member Join Date: October 25, 2001 Location: Alabama Posts: 18,541	Well, most militaries carry in Condition 3 because the average soldier is not well trained with the sidearm. I don't see that changing. How is the Beretta OFFICIALLY carried these days? Officially, not what somebody in "the sandbox" figures out for himself when he realizes that our democratic friends might take a shot at him. MY P210 did not shoot to POA with the fixed sights, which soon fell out anyhow. Good idea on the magazine catch. My magazines are tight in the well before they ever get to the disconnect. Can't reach the safety anyhow.

January 17, 2005, 10:43 AM	#6
Jehzsa Senior Member Join Date: September 22, 2004 Location: Tampa, Florida Posts: 756	BTW, Bianchi x-15 vertical shoulder holsters. Thin shoulder leather today, but sure as heck never heard anyone having trouble with it with 1911s way back when.

January 17, 2005, 01:24 PM	#8
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Everyone I know who carries (Navy Security and Marine Guard details) are officially and actually condition 2. And I'm not really talking about what militaries have done. I'm saying: Here's a robust military gun - how would you carry it for best defense?

January 18, 2005, 04:03 PM	#9
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Anyone else got any thoughts?

January 18, 2005, 11:47 PM	#11
Seraph Senior Member Join Date: May 22, 2004 Posts: 372	If I were to carry this gun, I would carry it in a good OWB holster, at 4:00.

January 19, 2005, 12:43 AM	#12
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	That's good, but not an answer to the question.

February 9, 2005, 10:16 AM	#15
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	For anyone who carries it C&L, do you envision yourself (and/or train) taking the safety off during the draw with the opposite (weak) hand?

February 9, 2005, 11:19 AM	#16
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	'Lavartus', Do you have a link to any of those aftermarket parts? Have you given up on Sigforum?

February 9, 2005, 12:19 PM	#17
larvatus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 925	A range of custom SIG P210 parts can be found at Waffen-Oschatz: Swiss shops such as GunFactory and Waffen Crottet tend to be slightly more tasteful: I would look for a P210-8 safety lever before going for a custom configuration. Waffen Crottet assisted the SIG factory in Neuhausen in developing this model variation. I still post on the Sigforum now and then.

February 9, 2005, 04:44 PM	#18
FirstFreedom Junior member Join Date: May 31, 2004 Location: The Toll Road State, U.S.A. Posts: 12,451	OMG, Larvatus, that 210 is the coolest looking pistol I've ever seen (even if it doesn't have a trigger. ). Wow.

February 9, 2005, 04:52 PM	#19
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	On some of those safety lever pictures, the detent holes are not in the standard spot, so those levers are not all compatible.

February 9, 2005, 08:30 PM	#20
larvatus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 925	P210-8 This P210-8 safety lever looks standard in its operation. If so, it can be retrofitted without tools or gunsmithing. The Waffen-Oschatz pistol does have a trigger installed. It is blued and hard to see in the digital photograph.

February 9, 2005, 08:37 PM	#21
Handy Junior member Join Date: August 31, 2001 Posts: 8,785	Well, that's good. The lever pictured on that 210-6 with the matching slide release has the displaced detents. They are much further aft than on the other guns.

February 9, 2005, 09:09 PM	#22
larvatus Junior member Join Date: May 18, 2004 Posts: 925	The P210-8 grips look shallower and flatter than those of the P210-6. Some fitting may be required. Incidentally, Leon Crottet is famous for his fully functional firearm scale models: Many of them are offered for sale by Bob Simpson, at prices that are anything but scaled down.

June 3, 2021, 03:00 PM	#24
Willie Lowman Senior Member Join Date: March 5, 2009 Location: Uh-Hi-O Posts: 3,006	Did you really just bring back a thread from 2005 to @ someone who hasn't been on this board since 2007? __________________ "9mm has a very long history of being a pointy little bullet moving quickly" --Sevens