Yet another pointless death...

[SkySlash]

I work in the Dallas InfoMart, known in the Technology arena as the single largest technology community in the world. Sadly, our security here is unarmed. While they have about 15 guards on any given shift, none of them carry anything resembling a weapon, and as a result, they're fairly ineffective at protecting anything including themselves. This became sadly very clear last night...

About 3am, a black Ford F-150 pulled into one of the parking lots with its right front wheel missing. One of the security guards noticed him on his monitors and went to find out if the guy needed help. When the security guard approached, someone jumped out of the truck and shot him several times with a 9mm pistol. The security guard died shortly thereafter, while the man that shot him took off on foot and was quickly apprehended by police.

According to the guard watching the monitor, there was no struggle, no provocation, and no apparent reason for the suspect to shoot the security guard... Police have released no info indicating a motive for the murder, and the security guard had no prior aquaintance with his killer.

As of right now, there are no further details, but when I see a story on a local news site I'll post it.

Too close for comfort...just way too close.

-SS

[JamesA]

A real shame for sure....I'll bet some slick talking attorney will get (bg) him off because he was scared or an Illegal lost in the big city..I think its bout time to start trimming the branches on the ole oak tree and getting a good rope. But then again the do gooders in this country wouldn't like that,eh.

[SkySlash]

http://www.wfaa.com/localnews/articl...y.34bf144.html

Finally, a link to the news story.

Suspect arrested in shooting death of security guard at Infomart
01/17/2002

By JENNIFER EMILY / The Dallas Morning News


Dallas police are investigating the fatal shooting of a 39-year-old security guard early today at the Infomart.

Eddie Barrett was shot and killed around 2:40 a.m., investigators said, after a man drove his disabled vehicle onto the parking lot of the Infomart, which houses computer related businesses. The Infomart is in the 1900 block of Stemmons Freeway.

Sgt. Ross Salverino, a Dallas police homicide investigator, said Mr. Barrett approached the man and told him that he could not leave his vehicle and needed to call a tow truck.

The suspect pulled a handgun and fired several shots at Mr. Barrett, Sgt. Salverino said.

The suspect, who was not immediately identified, was taken into police custody.

After the shooting, the suspect fled on foot, the sergeant said. After a second security guard provided a description of the man to Dallas police, he was found hiding behind a house several blocks away.

“It escalated very quickly,” Sgt. Salverino said of the encounter between Mr. Barrett and the suspect. “We’re still interviewing witnesses, so we’re not sure how it escalated.”

-SS

[Long Path]

I knew Eddie for two years. He was earnest in his duties.

The Infomart guys do actually carry two pseudo-weapons: 4-cell rechargable flashlights, and big cans of O.C. pepper spray. Still... it's not much.

[ahenry]

You know as terrible as each one of these shootings are, there is some good that can come out of them. I think as a whole the American population is much more understanding of what a gun (or any weapon) is for, than they were a few years ago. There was a general trend (although VERY slow) that was greatly escalated after Sept 11 towards an understanding that each person is responsible for their own safety. No police, or legislation can provide 24/7 protection from evil. As tragic as each death is, unlike before I think it tends to reinforce the attitude among the general population they need the means to protect themselves. I would prefer that these things didn’t happen, but as long as they do hopefully something positive can be produced.

[C.R.Sam]

Tis a shame that we hire people to go into harms way in order to protect others, yet deny them the tools with which to protect themselves and their charges.

Large can of spray eh ?

Balderdash.

Sam

[Long Path]

Yes, it's more than 8 years later, but it's fascinating how much information can be learned about forceful encounters after they've gone to trial. I've read the police report, and it wasn't as informative as this appellate case brief was:

http://tx.findacase.com/research/wfr...8858.TX.htm/qx

As can be noticed, the victim repeatedly confronted the actor, and even blocked his way. I don't mean to imply that the actor was justified in shooting, but I wish to point out that it's a very bad idea to stop a "drunk and belligerent" person, without good reason. The guy was walking away, and the safe move would have been to let him, and tow the pickup.

As we move about our assorted duties and jobs and such, it is worthwhile to consider how to AVOID situations where force might be necessary. Whether we are armed or not should not play into it. If you find yourself more likely to get into a confrontation because you're armed, please take stock, and re-evaluate. One man lost his life here, another will spend decades in prison, and a family lost its head.

[Glenn Dee]

I'm sure this thread will be closed for no direct relation to firearms... But.. Are we blaming the victim now? Sure he could have done things to avoid his own death... he could have let the guy go, he could have turned right instead of left, he could have called in sick that day.

We all know that if he had been armed, the security officer would have had a fighting chance.

[N.H. Yankee]

I could never figure out why many security guards aren't armed, as well as mall cops. Anything can be used against them as a weapon, and the mall cops I've seen don't even carry a nightstick or mace! I know they need to be trained, but it seems these companies would rather see a tragedy like this than invest in training. yes some fear litigation, but if that's their angle they shouldn't be in the business of so called protection. Sad for this mans family and friends for sure.

[fastforty]

Many agencies tell their "security guards" that their job is to "observe and report". Ideally a phone call (report) while watching the monitor (observing) may have been his only responsibility. Not saying he did anything wrong by checking to see if someone needed help, just answering the question of why so many security personnel are not armed.

[CWPinSC]

Simply put, the guard was killed because he was in "Condition White". Even if he had a gun, the BG had the drop on him. I'm not trying to second-guess the guard, or say there is any fault on him, but if he'd just stopped and thought a minute...
Watch the truck/man on the camera.
This is unusual.
Why is it unusual?
Why did he pull in here?
What's he doing?
Does he have anything in his hands?
We're hired to guard the building, let's get the LEOs out here to check this guy out.

I'll submit what probably happened is you had a BG with priors, or a dealer, or other type of scum who saw a "cop" approaching and wasn't going to be questioned or detained. BANG!

As someone else mentioned - if we're gonna put uniforms on these people and give them a modicum of authority, then we owe it to them to train and or arm them. A "security guard" without a weapon is a target.

[mack59]

A tragedy all round - having read the brief it appears that the shooter was intoxicated - and acted in an irrational manner - and that the security guard made the mistake of attempting to detain an armed intoxicated and irrational individual.

A vey sad event that ended one man's life and ruined another man's life. From reading the brief it seems the jury got it right.

Possible points to consider:

When dealing with an individual who is impaired through the use of Alcohol or other drugs - be aware that they are not in a rational state of mind - as judgement and reason are the first things impaired.

Do not block or attempt to physically impede an individual who is trying to leave unless you are prepared to deal with potential lethal force.

When dealing with an unknown indivdual be very aware of any aggression or aggressive movements or postures - and move away if possible.

Pure speculation - the shooter was upset that his vehicle was damaged - he was also in the back of his mind afraid of a DUI - he pulled off to leave his truck and then have it taken care of the next day when he was sober - he was armed as he didn't want to leave his gun in the truck and was on foot in an unfamilar area of town at night - however he was only partially rational due to his intoxication so he was unprepared to be confronted by the security guard - he tied to walk away in a confused panic but was confronted by the guard a second time who he saw was reaching for pepper spray indicating to him that he was going to be arrested or stopped from leaving - this increased his inner panic - and he responded by choosing to use lethal force to deal with the source/cause of his immediate panic. There appeared to be no other rational thought, and immediately after killing the man he found himself caught up in another series of panic inducing events - another guard hiding behind the truck calling for backup but not attempting to block his escape - so he runs off - soon he hears and sees the sounds and lights of pursuit - finnally he hides - hoping it will go away and pass him by. He is then tracked and discovered by the canine unit - by this tme he is mentally and emotionally defeated and any previous aggression is spent - he is still confused and in denial of his actions in the shooting/murder - on the one hand invested in denying that the reality of the shooting ever happened and on the other unable to deal with it, while also confused as to what has and is happening due to his impairment.

Which leads to the thought that:

Don't own firearms if you have an alcohol or drug problem.

Don't carry or possess a firearm if you plan to drink or use drugs to the point of intoxication.

Don't engage in illegal activity with a firearm - i.e. drinking and driving.


Lastly - my prayers for Mr. Barrett's family, friends, and loved ones - as I am sure there is still a hole in their lives from his absense. And the hope that Mr. Seibert will yet come to accept his responsiblity for his actions and sincerely repent. Sad story all the way around.

[CWPinSC]

Good post, "mack59".

When dealing with an individual who is impaired through the use of Alcohol or other drugs - be aware that they are not in a rational state of mind - as judgement and reason are the first things impaired.

Also memory, guilt, and morality.

Do not block or attempt to physically impede an individual who is trying to leave unless you are prepared to deal with potential lethal force.

Absolutely true. He wants to leave more than you want to detain him. Armed LEOS have the duty and ability to do this. Security guards and private citizens do not. Watch COPS. They wait until they have a 3 or more advantage AND weapons before they attempt to detain. The "lone wolf" cop going one on one with a perp (i.e., "Walker") is a thing of the past.

When dealing with an unknown indivdual be very aware of any aggression or aggressive movements or postures - and move away if possible.

Leave it. Defuse the situation. Walk away. Make a phone call.

Pure speculation - the shooter was upset that his vehicle was damaged - he was also in the back of his mind afraid of a DUI -

He picked up a bottle and carried a gun. From that point on, his life went in the toilet. His first irrational decision led to others and the situation snowballed. Unfortunately, the security guard got caught in the avalanche.

And the hope that Mr. Seibert will yet come to accept his responsiblity for his actions and sincerely repent. Sad story all the way around.

Whether he repents or not is between him and his God. Payment for his crime is another thing. While I feel for his family for their loss, HE CHOSE THAT ROUTE. If you call the tune, you pay the piper.

[N.H. Yankee]

I see the problem as one of terminology also, SECURITY GUARD, The term implies to secure and guard. Maybe they should be called watchmen, TO WATCH and report. Many people approach a situation WHITE because there isn't always time in their mind to do so. A situation arises and they feel they need to defuse it ASAP. The guard may have limited technology available if any, most guard companies in these parts are what I call SCAB's they pay minimum wage and offer little to NO training. They are in it for the $$$$$$ period.

A mall guard can walk into a situation unknowingly due to the design of mall's, blind doorways, corners, pavilions etc. A mall guard see's a girl getting beat on most will run to the rescue due to chivalry, its a cultural reaction. The guy could be an armed EX looking for revenge who just randomly saw her there or a perp robbing her. training is crucial, but like I said, most of these companies are scabs.

Maybe some do tell their guards not to get involved, but ones conscience or moral beliefs spring into action with little to no forethought. Put yourself in that position, even unarmed and what would you do seeing a girl getting mugged or beat, for many its a knee-jerk reaction. Last but not least, some of these guards are wannabe's and to prove themselves they react with a macho mentality.

[Glenn Dee]

Maybe we should call security workers watchmen instead. There was a time when security people were at least armed for a minimum self defense. Lately it seems that security people have been religated to cannon fodder. Someone to act as a speed bump in dangerous situations, or someone to blame when things dont go according to what's in some clients imagination.

I'm sure the industry is driven by insurance companies, and keeping a low overhead. I truely believe it's time for municipalities, and governments to enact laws to protect individual security guards, and to allow them to to protect themselves at a minimum level that any other citizen enjoys. In other words I believe that security guards should be allowed to C/C just as any other citizen can when in possesion of a valid permit, or as local law permits.

Sorry if I went too far off topic.

Glenn Dee

[MTT TL]

The guy was walking away, and the safe move would have been to let him, and tow the pickup.

This. But we can not go back and undo can we?

Letting go is often the best way to defuse the situation.

[Conn. Trooper]

Dave Grossman says in " The Bulletproof Mind" that calling an unarmed guard security is a mistake. They can't provide security, they can only report what happened. Tragedy that this man got caught without the tools he needed.

[johnwilliamson062]

When I was in school I worked as a guard for a year.

Like most jobs there is a big difference between protocol and expectations.

Police responding to a building a lot can cause insurance rates to climb(especially if there is a response fee).

Site supervisors DO NOT want to be woken up at night.

If any vandalism occurs or there are people on property when they shouldn't you really need to check it out and make sure it is either a non-emergency or that it requires a 911 call.

If the guy left a disabled car in the parking lot and it was there in the morning the guard on duty would have a pain to deal with.

[Long Path]

Hm. Old thread, but I have things to say.

So, full disclosure: I worked with Eddie (the decedent) at the Infomart, as a security guard there, on that same campus. I had been laid off, took the job because they had offered amazing full benefits for me and my then-pregnant wife, and it was the first offer. I was finishing my undergraduate studies. I made supervisor, and ran night shift. When I left to go be a cop, Eddie took my place as night shift security supervisor. To say that I know the circumstances would be an understatement.

Do I victim blame? No. Well, yes, maybe just a little. The murderer here, Weston Seibert, needed to go to prison. The despicable fact is that he is already out, from what I can find looking up publicly-available documents. Seibert was wholly at fault, and should be in prison for the rest of his life. But he is not. As a matter of fact, Seibert almost didn't go to prison at all, despite a rock-solid case against him with eye-witness testimony, the fact that he still had the murder weapon on him when he was apprehended, and his confession to shooting Eddie. Why? Because Seibert did not "LOOK" like a criminal, to the first jury. They deadlocked, and he had to be retried. I've been in contact with the prosecutor on this. See her essay on this incident here: https://www.dallasnews.com/opinion/2...es-may-matter/

Eddie Barrett didn't see Seibert as a threat. He challenged Seibert and began shaking a can of pepper spray to intimidate Seibert into compliance. Seibert, almost blind drunk, saw what he thought was a cop, and began shooting.

Here's the appellate case: https://casetext.com/case/seibert-v-state-1

Weigh your options. Manage unknown contacts. Deflect.

Eddie had about 20 years of experience as a security guard, but very little training on de-escalation. He had had all of those years of good luck, creating the bad habits that in the end cost him his life. There is no worse reinforcement of bad habits than good luck is. It is a cautionary tale: do not keep doing less than best practice, just because "It's always worked for me so far."

[vito]

From personal experience I can tell you that some organizations do not want security, they want the perception of security. I was the Administrator of a large big city nursing home many years ago that catered primarily to elderly Jewish residents of that city. After some Mideast unrest, Jewish organizations in the U.S. were advised to try to make their facilities and clientele more secure. I was ready to engage a security service to provide round the clock armed security for our building and our elderly residents, but the Board of Directors overruled me due to the high cost of such a service. They instead demanded that I buy security looking uniforms for the evening and night shift maintenance staff and have them perform the dual duty of maintenance and security, and of course they were totally unarmed. They were comfortable with having what appeared to be uniformed security visible to the residents and visiting families and thus creating the perception of security but without the cost. One Board member wanted to go even cheaper, saying we could put a coat rack in the lobby of the building and hang a police jacket and hat on the rack, giving any potential trouble makers the impression that there was a police officer in the building. Years later, after 9/11 when I was working for a large not-for-profit corporation that ran many nursing homes, we had families and residents asking for more security and my corporate bosses came up with exactly the same non-solution as I had been forced to use years before, i.e., uniforms for night maintenance and housekeeping staff to give the appearance of security without the cost.

[44 AMP]

it was tragic, but it was almost 20 years ago and this thread was reopened after 10 years of inactivity...

Not directly firearm related, so not a good fit in General, NEW discussion of what happened and why might belong in Tactics & Training, but not in General.

Closed.