Best ball size for 44 cal

[mrappe]

I have a 1858 Remington and a Colt 1860 Army that are 44 cal. (Both made by Pietta) I have always used Hornady .454 lead balls in them and they seem to work OK but I was wondering if a smaller ball would work beter. When I load them they always swage off a small ring of lead. I think that tight of a fit in itself may help protect against a chain fire but I wonder if a smaller ball may be more accurate. What do most people use in these guns?

Mike

[Fingers McGee]

Mrappe,

I use .454s in all my .44 C&Bs. Between cutting a ring and lubed wads, I dont have chain fires.

FM

[gmatov]

mrappe,

Why don't you just go buy a 100 .451 balls and find out if they are what you need?
You tell us that .454s will shave, but you THINK MAYBE you could use .451s, JUST because, ....WHAT?

3 thou smaller ball will cost 14 cents less per 100? If not, why IN THE HELL DO YOU WORRY ABOUT THE SIZE?
I would much prefer a ball that shaves than one that does not.

And I do not fear chain fires.

Hey.

Did you ever think of slugging the barrel? IF the ball is smaller than the barrel, forget it, you are shooting a small ball down a big hole and you will be LUCKY to hit any given target.

The ball from the cylinder should always be at least as large as the bore of the barrel.
Cheers,

George

[Shotgun Willy]

Mrappe,
In my Piettas, I use .454 balls. If they're shaving a ring for you, and you're not having to work too hard to load them, stick with the .454s. .451 might work, but the truth is, even if they both shave a little off, the .454's going to shave more. This means you'll have just a hair more contact between the ball and the rifling, and get a little more spin imparted to the ball.

[arcticap]

Hey.

Did you ever think of slugging the barrel? IF the ball is smaller than the barrel, forget it, you are shooting a small ball down a big hole and you will be LUCKY to hit any given target.

The ball from the cylinder should always be at least as large as the bore of the barrel.

The bore size doesn't matter one bit in regard to the correct ball size to load into the chambers so why slug the bore?
What matters is the size of the chambers.

[mykeal]

The first order of business is safety, and in that context matching the chamber and ball diameters to get the fabled 'ring of lead' is paramount.

Slugging the bore is a useful tool in maximizing accuracy; it provides the information necessary for matching chamber diameter with the distance across the lands in the bore. However, as articap observed, the parameter that's adjusted on the basis of that measurement is chamber diameter, not ball diameter. One might need to change ball diameter once the chambers are matched to the bore, but that's because the chamber size changed, not because the bore was slugged.

[Dingoboyx]

I have 2 ROA's and 2 Pietta's in 44, I use 454's in all, I mold my own balls and use pure lead only (no wheel weights or bullet alloy) The idea behind using pure lead is that it is soft and maleable, so if the chamber shaves a bit of soft lead off, so be it, it is making the ball the right size for the barrel (so long as the cylinder is the original/correct one for the gun) also pure lead melts 150 degrees celcius higher than bullet alloy (yes, as I have been told, bullet alloy melts at a lower temp than pure lead)

IMO, when the gun fires, the resulting blast/pressure will make the soft lead ball fit the barrel perfectly. IMO, tou could try some .451 balls, see how they affect accuracy (work out what works best in your gun) and then get a mold or buy the apropriate balls for your gun.

I have heard of folks chamfering the cylinder mouths (slightly) to stop ball shaving.... But I dont mind if a little lead shaves off, if it wont drop away, I just push it in on the ball (so it goes with the ball) I have never had any dramas.

The choice is yours.... now go have fun

[CaptainCrossman]

I use .451" in the Rem 44. In the 1861 Navy cartridge gun, that takes .430"

Some use .454" in the Rems and Colts, I couldn't imagine doing that, the .451" are hard enough to ram in and load.

[arcticap]

Here's some pictures of revolver balls that were recovered after firing some old
anemic loads out of an Army San Marco revolver.

The ball diameters across the engraved portions (which represent the barrel lands)
measured .443, .4435, .445.
Measured from top to bottom the balls are ~.4625.

Since I didn't load them I don't know what the balls originally measured, but these show the
increase in bearing surface area and becoming slightly oblong from being swaged into the
chambers, and/or hitting the forcing cone & moving through the barrel.
I can't say if more bearing area is more or less desirable for accuracy. Every gun & make
might be different in that respect. But the reasons that most use and recommend .454's
is to prevent misfires and because some chambers are cut looser/tighter than others.
Is it necessary or desireable to use the .454 larger balls in every gun?
Who knows? Just experiment to see which ones you find to be better or worse.

[AirForceShooter]

My italian beauty loves .457's.
.454's don't shave the ring.

Go figure

AFS

[ClemBert]

As I recall, the Pietta 1858 Remmie New Army calls for a .451 ball. This is per the Pietta manual. However, it is my understanding that Cabellas, who sells this particular firearm, includes some literature that specifies .454. You basically have conflicting info in the same box. If I had one I'd start off with .451 then if there was a problem I'd got with .454. FWIW.

[ClemBert]

BTW, every manufacturer is different. Even within the same manufacturer you will have differences from say a .44 open top versus a .44 strap top. Why not read the literature that comes with your firearm?

For example, the Pietta 1858 uses a .451 while the Uberti 1858 uses a .454. This per the instruction manual. Also, FWIW, The Uberti's grooves are twice the depth of a Pietta. Uberti = 0.010, Pietta = 0.005.

NOTE: The info is based upon two 1858 Remmies. One made by Uberti and the other my Pietta. Within Uberti or Pietta it is likely that that the stainless steel version specs are different from the blued steel version. READ THE MANUAL then go from there.......

[Hawg]

As I recall, the Pietta 1858 Remmie New Army calls for a .451 ball. This is per the Pietta manual. However, it is my understanding that Cabellas, who sells this particular firearm, includes some literature that specifies .454. You basically have conflicting info in the same box. If I had one I'd start off with .451 then if there was a problem I'd got with .454. FWIW.

Actually it's the other way around. Pietta recommends the .454 and Cabela's recommends the .451. I use .454's.

[ClemBert]

Actually it's the other way around. Pietta recommends the .454 and Cabela's recommends the .451. I use .454's.

Okay, I stand corrected by you and by myself: Ball size for a Pietta made 1858 Remington?

I don't own a Pietta...I own a Uberti.

[B.L.E.]

Did you ever think of slugging the barrel? IF the ball is smaller than the barrel, forget it, you are shooting a small ball down a big hole and you will be LUCKY to hit any given target.

If the chamber throats are smaller than the barrel groove diameter, yes, your accuracy will be medicore at best but there is nothing you can do about it short of re-reaming the chambers to a larger size.
Using barrel groove diameter balls won't fix the problem because loading the ball into the undersized chambers just resizes it.

[grymster2007]

I keep stuffin' .454s down the throats of my '58. I've not shot 'nuff to think of the finer points like some of these other folks.

Go bang. Make big cloud smoke n fire. Good boom-stick.

[B.L.E.]

Even if you have a revolver with undersized chambers and oversized barrel, you still have a revolver that can shoot better than the average casual plinker can aim and shoot.

If you can shoot 10 shot 25 yard groups that look like this, then an oversized barrel/undersized chamber will begin to matter.

[madcratebuilder]

Actually it's the other way around. Pietta recommends the .454 and Cabela's recommends the .451. I use .454's.

I have a ten year old Pietta manual for the 1858 that recommends .451's, go figure. I use .454's, they shave a good ring.

[scrat]

Ok here is the answer he is looking for.


Most Ubertis call for .454 there are a few piettas out there mostly on 1851's that require .451.

You want to be able to shave a nice good piece of lead in a full circle not a thin circle. Same time if you just so happen to have one of those 1851's like myself that need a .451 then you will know. Why because you will try to press in that .454 round ball and it will take a great deal of force to get it in. sometimes it may seem like you cant get it all the way in.

Now why do you want to shave a good ring. because if you shave a small ring most likely the ball is not sealing the cylinder all the way. or what happens is when you fire the first cylinder. the balls will wander forward. This is pretty dangerous as their will be a gap between the ball and the powder. Which will result in the ball being an abstruction rather than a projectile. Now lets say you have some .451 round balls. can you use them. Yes but its best to try them out with a light charge same time what you want to do is make sure you are using some type of lube over the balls to prevent chain fires. why do all this. if you press in the balls and they go in easy with little force then this is a sign that they are not really sealing the chambers that good. so the lube will prevent chain fires. Now you just need to fire a couple of rounds and if anything use the load lever to check to see if the other balls wandered forward if not your ok. However if they do go in easy then change to .454

[gmatov]

B.L.E.,

True. Small chamber will not make the ball fit a big barrel. Still, that is what he should worry about.

Obturation, fugeddabout it. Obturation is the result of the kick in the ass the powder blast makes. It DON'T happen after the ball leaves the cylinder, UNLESS the barrel is small enough to make drag on the ball.

Anyhow, why worry about .451 instead of .454 cal when NEITHER will fill the barrel grooves. How can EITHER be more accurate, unless you THINK that shaving JUST a thou off instead of 3 thou makes for a more accurate ball. If the ball DID spin with the rifling, MAYBE a couple thou off the D will make it a BIT more oblong, MAY fly a bit better.. Wider swath of shave, if the ball does fit the rifling, would give more engagement with the rifling. THAT would help.

Off to bed.

Cheers,

George

.

[long rider]

I pack a 454, in my remmis, 451 just does not cut it.

[Bigbadgun]

arcticap
wow I must say that sums it up, great photos and great explanation.
I know with all my cap and ballers I load a .454 and get a nice ring of lead.
I have a new 58 in SS ASM I havent had a chance to shoot it yet so maybe I need to break out the calipers and find out what it wants to eat.
again good post.

[Smokin_Gun]

I always measure the chambers and slug the bore... .44 I found Piettas bore measures .451' ...Chambers at approx .445"... I mold with a Lee .451" RB spruelss(close) that measures .452" and is perfect for the Pietta .44 Rems or Colts. The Pietta .36's take a .375" RB...I jus' mention this to save breakin' a Rem Loadin' Lever Pin if the .454" are too tight.
I mostly Shoot .454" or .457" in Uberti, Armi San Paolo, and Euroarms Rems, E.N. Santa Barbara Rems, and Uberti Big Colts, and ROAs of course.