The Firing Line Forums

Go Back   The Firing Line Forums > The Hide > The Dave McCracken Memorial Shotgun Forum

Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread
Old August 23, 2015, 07:23 PM   #1
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
What's wrong with my shotgun?

I took my new CZ 612 out today to shoot a round of sporting clays. I ended up shooting about 60 rounds before my shoulder couldn't take too much more and I called it for the day.

I had some issues along the way though. In my first set of 10, I had several misfires. There was an audible click, but no fire. Partially opening the action to re-cock it usually allowed me to fire a round. At first, it was assumed that since I was a new shooter and loading my first round directly into the open chamber, I wasn't riding the pump forward far or hard enough. Really bringing it forward did help a little bit.

Examination of the ejected cases revealed that the primers were being dented, but not firing. Usually, after letting them sit a little bit, they would fire if I put them back in again.

The guys I was shooting with noticed that my magazine tube cap would loosen up and back out, and told me that can cause a gap between the receiver and chamber which can create those kinds of issues. It seemed like no matter how tight I turned it, it would back out after a couple of shots. Why did this happen? I was told this can happen if the threads are dry and I need to try some grease?

One of the guys present really cranked it down good by hand, and it didn't seem to really back out after that, although I did only shoot 20 rounds. After this, I had only a few misfires. I had probably 8 misfires my first 20 rounds and only 3 or 4 the last 20. There was one issue where a misfired round fired when struck again, but the bolt locked up and I had to use the action lock and put some extra effort to get that round to eject.

I bought this shotgun for dove season, and I really do want to like it (it's a nice shotgun) but I worry about this performance.

It also occurs to me that I didn't strip it and clean out all of the factory grease before shooting. Can that be a cause?

EDIT: Forgot to mention, I was using Winchester Universal #8 shot. Seems like there are reports of people having issues with this ammo, but not quite to the extent I'm having. It was the cheapest ammo that was there at Walmart - maybe I got burned by that. I did shoot a couple rounds of Rio from somebody else's collection, but not enough to establish consistency with it. He did trade me a box of his Rio for the remainder of my Winchester since his shotgun seemed to shoot it, and I liked the lighter recoil.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.

Last edited by dakota.potts; August 23, 2015 at 07:32 PM.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 23, 2015, 07:44 PM   #2
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Win Universal is about the worst crap you can put in a shotgun to shoot. Even the Federals from Walmart are better (and usually cheaper)

To keep it tight, grease, anti-seize, even white teflon plumber's tape will work - same things for choke tubes that can come loose.

If your shoulder is hurting after 60 rounds of cheap target ammo, it sounds like you have a fit issue - cast, drop at heel, drop at comb, etc - something isn't made to fit you correctly.

Quote:
It also occurs to me that I didn't strip it and clean out all of the factory grease before shooting.
Why not? Didn't the owner's manual tell you to do that? (It should have)

Give it a thorough cleaning, including the trigger group and inside the action and then buy better ammo.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 23, 2015, 07:55 PM   #3
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
I will try all of the above. I have 5 boxes of Rio or Estate I'll have to try since people apparently like that much more than Winchester Universal. I didn't think it would be a big difference since they were nearly the same price as other cheap target ammo that others commonly use.

So, I'll strip the gun, give the bolt and trigger group a good cleaning, grease the magazine cap, and try some better ammo. I'll take it to the local range and just shoot it against some paper targets to function check.

I've never had a shotgun fitted to me, but I do have a very short wingspan/arm length. I can shoulder it, but it definitely feels a little long and the trigger sits far forward for me. When I start my gunsmithing classes, I may see if my instructor won't help me fit it and adjust the stock for me. I would slip a recoil pad on it in the interim, but it's already long rather than short.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 24, 2015, 09:43 AM   #4
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
It is easier (although not ideal of course) to shoot a shorter length stock than a longer one where your arms are out of position ir you feel yourself leaning a little backwards.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 24, 2015, 11:13 AM   #5
BigJimP
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 23, 2005
Posts: 13,195
I agree with all of the above....clean it / and see if it continues.

The issue of "Fit" ...means the gun needs to hit where you look ...there is no rear sight on a shotgun / so the combination of drop at comb, at heel, length of pull, etc...all add up to "Fit"...

and if the gun is beating you up after only 60 shells...that it may be a combination of "Fit" and "fundamentals"...of grip, mount, follow thru, etc.../ if the gun "Fits" you and your fundamentals are sound --- shooting 300 shells a day should not beat you up ...

But clean it - take it to the pattern board to check the point of impact vs where you look ( 21 yds or so, with a Full choke --- and shoot at a 3" Dot on the pattern board) - and then add comb pad, recoil pad, etc so the gun "Fits".
BigJimP is offline  
Old August 24, 2015, 12:07 PM   #6
Chuck Dye
Senior Member
 
Join Date: June 28, 2002
Location: Oregon-The wet side.
Posts: 949
Just a reminder:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FjDu5zwa4rM

hangfires happen...
__________________
Gee, I'd love to see your data!
Chuck Dye is offline  
Old August 24, 2015, 01:34 PM   #7
jaguarxk120
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 28, 2008
Location: Michigan
Posts: 2,618
If you do the math on the Winchester Valupack universal shells and compare to Remington Gun Clubs or Federal Top Guns the better shells are about the same price or cheaper.

The youtube video is nice but staged. Many people have reviewed it when it first came out and concluded it was faked.

With todays modern ammunition hang fires are a thing of the past.
jaguarxk120 is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 04:29 PM   #8
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
After thoroughly cleaning it, I took the shotgun back to the range today. I only got to shoot about 40 rounds, but I had only a single malfunction on the first round. Two clicks before it went bang.

On the second click, I noticed that the pump would still slide back and wasn't locked into place. I realized that I've been shooting my shotgun the way I shoot my rifles (using my forward hand to pull the firearm into my shoulder) and that I may be partially unlocking the pump before I fire.

I started putting forward pressure on my support hand, pushing the pump away from me rather than into me, and I didn't have any more issues after that. I shot 25 rounds of Rio game load and 15 rounds of Winchester Universal. Wish I was able to shoot more, but I didn't have any issues with that short sample.

If only I could figure out the recoil issue. I worked on a more forward, aggressive stances which slapped my shoulder less and allowed me to get back on target faster, but the little bit of shooting I did gave me a nice headache and freshened up the deep yellow bruise on my shoulder from the last outing.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 05:02 PM   #9
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
If you are getting cheek slap that is giving you headaches and your shoulder is getting bruised, then your stance and/or gun fit are incorrect.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 05:28 PM   #10
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
I'm not experience cheek slap so much, just the force of the sudden recoil pulls my body and head back quickly enough and I get a migraine after shooting enough rounds. It's a very similar experience to shooting my Mosin with the heavier loads.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 07:22 PM   #11
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Shoot lighter loads at slower velocities - no need to beat yourself up. Shooting guns is supposed to be fun, not painful.
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 07:23 PM   #12
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
If pushing the pump grip forward solves the failure to fire problem, most likely there is a safety that locks the firing pin if the bolt is out of battery, although most pump guns lock the slide forward until the shell fires.

I looked up the CZ 612 and I noticed that the field version of this gun only weighs 6.2 pounds. The reason break open single shot shotguns have a reputation for kicking like a mule is because most of them only weigh 5.5 to 6 lb. There's a reason most serious trap and sporting clays shotguns weigh 8.5 to 9 lb.
W.W. Greener use to claim that a gun should weigh 96 times the weight of the shot it shoots in order to be shot comfortably by the average shooter. I round that up to 100 for my personal rule of thumb.
6.2 pounds is 99.2 ounces so if you want to shoot this gun in a sporting clays situation, I would shoot one ounce loads or less.
Lightweight shotguns are for hunting, where you carry the gun all day and only shoot a dozen times or so.
The heavier shotguns are for trap or sporting clays where you shoot 100+ rounds in a row but don't carry the gun very far.
__________________
Hanlon's Razor
"Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."
B.L.E. is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 10:12 PM   #13
dakota.potts
Senior Member
 
Join Date: February 25, 2013
Location: Keystone Heights, Florida
Posts: 3,084
My first box was 1 1/8 oz loads at 1200 FPS, and those were the ones that really beat me up. The Rios I were given are a 1 oz load at 1280 FPS. The recoil is not as bad on those, but is a little more succinct.

I'll see what I can find that's a little lighter charge, but I don't have a whole lot of stores around me for selection. I'll see what I can find and if that gives me some relief. I may just need some time on the gun to develop a stance, since it seems like it's going to require a different stance than my rifles do. My next planned outing with it is dove hunting, where I expect to shoot 75 rounds or more. In this case, would you recommend trying to find a lower velocity load, or a lighter load (maybe a 7/8 oz)?

It is a light gun for sure. It weighs less than my VZ 58, which is itself not a heavy rifle.
__________________
Certified Gunsmith (On Hiatus)
Certified Armorer - H&K and Glock Among Others
You can find my writings at my website, pottsprecision.com.
dakota.potts is offline  
Old August 30, 2015, 11:25 PM   #14
skizzums
Senior Member
 
Join Date: July 1, 2013
Location: Douglasville, Ga
Posts: 4,615
I won't comment on your recoil issues relating to ammo choice, except to look up how to size yourself for a shotgun, then practice your stance. Sounds like your "length of pull" may be too short if your getting beat up on shoulder and cheek, short is good because it can be easily fixed with padding.

I have three boxes of Winchester Universal, two from a friend of mine that it would cycle or fire in his pricey semi-auto and one box from a buddy who can't even cycle it in his pump-action Winchester, odd since it's a Winchester shell. anyways, seem to work okay in my H&R pump but have only shot off maybe ten or so rounds. lots of problems with that ammo, not sure why they wouldn't just address the issues since it really tarnishes the name, shotgun ammo is always pretty reliable from just about every company, so it can't be too difficult.
__________________
My head is bloody, but unbowed
skizzums is offline  
Old August 31, 2015, 05:54 AM   #15
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
Quote:
In this case, would you recommend trying to find a lower velocity load, or a lighter load (maybe a 7/8 oz)?
7/8 ounce loads are an absolute joy to shoot, but hardly anyone sells them for 12 gauge, and when they do, they are usually international trap loads which are loaded up to around 1400 fps, giving you back all the recoil that the light load took away.
If you reload, around 16.5 grains of 700X, Remington TGT-12 wad, and 7/8 ounce of shot in a gun club or STS hull is like shooting a 20 gauge.
__________________
Hanlon's Razor
"Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."
B.L.E. is offline  
Old August 31, 2015, 10:39 AM   #16
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
Look for Winchester Low Noise, Low recoil in 12 gauge.
It's 7/8 loads at reasonable velocities.
It's usually plentiful and affordable and easy on the shooter.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old August 31, 2015, 10:46 AM   #17
FITASC
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 6, 2014
Posts: 6,432
Quote:
I'll see what I can find that's a little lighter charge, but I don't have a whole lot of stores around me for selection.
The Internet is a wonderful place to shop.

Start with some stalwarts like Graf, Gamaliel, Able's, even Academy and Cabela's have decent sales now and again. I would still look at having someone who knows what they are doing help you get the gun fitted to you- it will be money well spent.

Here's a list of clay target clubs in SC:
http://www.claytargetsonline.com/south-carolina/

You might see if one near you has a resident instructor/fitter who can help.

Also, you might want to think about reloading your own. I reload light loads for 12 and 20 and they are a joy to shoot - even in light field guns
__________________
"I believe that people have a right to decide their own destinies; people own themselves. I also believe that, in a democracy, government exists because (and only so long as) individual citizens give it a 'temporary license to exist'—in exchange for a promise that it will behave itself. In a democracy, you own the government—it doesn't own you."- Frank Zappa
FITASC is offline  
Old August 31, 2015, 09:03 PM   #18
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
Quote:
Look for Winchester Low Noise, Low recoil in 12 gauge.
It's 7/8 loads at reasonable velocities.
The Winchester AA "featherlite" shells actually have 26 grams, not 7/8 ounce of shot. 26 grams kind of splits the difference between 7/8 ounce and one ounce, very close to 15/16 ounce.
Yet at 980 fps muzzle velocity, these rounds are very pleasant to shoot, and being subsonic, aren't all that loud either.

They are also good dove ammo for people who understand that doves aren't armor plated.

This is the time of the year when all the skeet fields are full of people warming up for bird season, most of them shooting heavy high velocity field loads and missing the birds anyway, while the old pros are turning clay birds into dust mostly with 7/8 and 1 ounce loads shot at 1150 to 1200 fps on the trap field.
__________________
Hanlon's Razor
"Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."
B.L.E. is offline  
Old September 1, 2015, 08:02 AM   #19
g.willikers
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2008
Posts: 10,442
It's this stuff:
http://www.luckygunner.com/12-ga-2-3...-aa-250-rounds
Although a bit pricier than I recall.
I usually find it at Dick's Sporting Goods stores in our area.
__________________
Walt Kelly, alias Pogo, sez:
“Don't take life so serious, son, it ain't nohow permanent.”
g.willikers is offline  
Old September 1, 2015, 07:10 PM   #20
B.L.E.
Senior Member
 
Join Date: December 20, 2008
Location: Somewhere on the Southern shore of Lake Travis, TX
Posts: 2,603
g.willikers, I clicked on your link and the website says 7/8 ounce but the writing on the box of shells says 26 grams, which one is it?
7/8 ounce = 24.8 grams
15/16 ounce = 26.6 grams
1 ounce = 28.4 grams

I have used it and it is really pleasant to shoot, and crushes trap birds with authority even at 980 fps. Frankly, I believe supersonic muzzle velocities in shotgun ammo is highly overrated.
__________________
Hanlon's Razor
"Do not invoke conspiracy as explanation when ignorance and incompetence will suffice, as conspiracy implies intelligence and organization."
B.L.E. is offline  
Old September 2, 2015, 01:04 AM   #21
tangolima
Senior Member
 
Join Date: September 28, 2013
Posts: 3,765
Quote:
Originally Posted by dakota.potts View Post
On the second click, I noticed that the pump would still slide back and wasn't locked into place. I realized that I've been shooting my shotgun the way I shoot my rifles (using my forward hand to pull the firearm into my shoulder) and that I may be partially unlocking the pump before I fire.
Something not right with the action bar lock. It should positively lock the action so that the action remain locked despite the forend being pumped back. It could be dangerous as the action could be opened too soon after the gun is fired when the pressure is still high. True that if the bolt is short of fully in battery, the firing block may cause misfire. You may want to have the gun looked at.

The Mag cap alone shouldn't be keeping the barrel in the receiver. The pounding from firing the gun will tear it in pieces. It is probably not the cause of your problem.

If the stock fit and recoil bothers you, you may consider shortening it and while installing a recoil pad.

-TL
tangolima is offline  
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump


All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
This site and contents, including all posts, Copyright © 1998-2021 S.W.A.T. Magazine
Copyright Complaints: Please direct DMCA Takedown Notices to the registered agent: thefiringline.com
Page generated in 0.10557 seconds with 8 queries