Deer neck shots and varmint rounds

[voodoochild15]

Hi everyone. I am new to the forum and thought this would be a good place to propose my question. I have searched the internet and its hard to find reasonable information regarding the topic.

I would like to kill deer with my AR. The problem is that the traditional way of shooting a deer, that being going for a broadside heart/lung shot, doesn't seem like a reliable method with any .223 hunting round. I was bored and watching varmint rounds hit ballistics gelatin and the idea of using varmint rounds to shot deer in the neck seemed like a wonderful idea.

The most common issue with neck shots, from what i have read, is that its a much smaller target than the shoulder region heart/lung shot. This is an issue of marksmanship. Lets assume that i place a limit of 70 yards and will make the shot 100% of the time, leaving us to talk about the ballistics at hand.

The second issue people bring up is the fact that many rounds don't transmit their energy effectively in such a shallow target. This creates a situation where you have pass through shots without much damage, unless something critical is directly struck by the bullet itself, leading to a wounded animal that runs off without a blood trail.

Lets take the extreme for the 22 caliber category, a 40gr V-max, as our example round. It will penetrate tissue and rapidly begin fragmenting and dumping 100% of its energy at a very shallow depth. Here is some gelatin footage from Hornady: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2Ms3Hg0dvnc

I would imagine that if a round that acts in that manner in ballistic gelatin were to strike a deer in the center of the neck that enormous amounts of damage would take place. You have the spine, the spinal cord, the esophagus, and a major artery and vein. If you were to look at the anatomy of the deer and point to a place where the nervous, respiratory, and cardiovascular system were all close together, the neck would be your answer.

Without getting into a conversation about what you should teach people to do, or its harder to hit which makes it an unethical shot, or any other side topic... Why would this be a bad idea.

Lightweight Varmint round to the neck out of a .223 20" AR 1/9 twist. What are your thoughts?

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by voodoochild15

I would like to kill deer with my AR. The problem is that the traditional way of shooting a deer, that being going for a broadside heart/lung shot, doesn't seem like a reliable method with any .223 hunting round.

There are big game capable .223 hunting rounds.
I have a very good friend who has never killed a deer with any rifle but a .223
He has shot them from nearly point blank to well over 200 yards.

Barnes TTSX bullets (or similar) are the ideal choice.
(Assuming your gun can stabilize the bullet)
The TTSX bullet is amazing and is absolutely effective in 223 for "traditional" shot on deer.

That said, varmint bullet to the neck are extremely effective. There is a lot of debate, but I have seen it multiple times and done it myself.
Neck shots are almost always "bang flop", instant death, or a miss.
There's very little you can hit in a neck that doesn't cause massive damage to the ability to keep living.
If you think of what a 223 varmint bullet does to a varmint... well, a deer's neck is basically varmint sized. The internal damage is absolutely devastating.

Still though, for most shooters and in most situations, there is no need for neck shots. Modern bullets are extraordinarily effective.
Find ammo loaded with Barnes TTSX or similar monolithic construction and use them.
223 with such bullets is entirely adequate for deer under normal hunting conditions and shots.

[Sharkbite]

223 “varmint” bullets are absolutely devastating within their SHALLOW depth of penetration.

Hornady makes their Tactical Application Police (TAP) load with shallow penetration/rapid fragmentation bullets (might be V-max). That load ROCKS. It's not for a shot thru the shoulder but would be all thats needed for a hit in the neck.

[rickyrick]

Killed several hundred pigs with .223 and neck shots.

[Erno86]

If you only just break the spinal cord with a neck shot on a deer, chances are, you'll have to put another bullet in the deer in a different vital area to put him out of his paralyzed misery.

[rickyrick]

Usually, a neck shot on a larger mammal with a high velocity bullet results in incapacitation due to hydrostatic shock. It’s a bit graphic, but I’ve seen it dislodge eyeballs fairly frequently. It always weirds me out.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Erno86

If you only just break the spinal cord with a neck shot on a deer, chances are, you'll have to put another bullet in the deer in a different vital area to put him out of his paralyzed misery.

Not saying it isn't possible, because I've seen a lot of strange things happen while hunting, but a neck shot that does that kind of damage to the spine is generally going to cause massive damage to all surrounding tissues, which are largely composed of critical veins, arteries and airways.

I think in most cases you'd have to be using an FMJ type bullet to localize damage to just the spine, and even then the explosive bone fragmentation is likely to cause catastrophic damage.

I've never seen a deer hit in the neck with a rifle bullet of any kind that wasn't instant, or very nearly instant, death.

[Nathan]

Hornady 75gr bthp and Sierra 77gr are both popular choices for double lung shots.Hornady LE

[Ajiel]

77gr TMK and 87gr V-max have very similar form factors and likely similar jacket thickness, though I don’t have them cross-sectioned. 108 and 147 ELDM below for reference size/shape.

[FITASC]

Used to know a guy who shot mule deer with a TC Contender in 22KHornet - he only shot them in the head

[jmr40]

There are several options for bullet weights 60-80 gr that are designed for deer within certain range limitations. I'd have no issues with the right bullet at a max range of around 200 yards with 100 yards being better.

And that is with a classic broadside shot. I'd still not take shots at bad angles with a 223.

The only problem that I see is your 1/9 twist. It may not shoot the heavy bullets accurately. An AR with a 1/8 or 1/7 twist will handle them and kill deer just fine.

[bamaranger]

Will a varmint .223 bullet to the neck kill a deer? Yes, probably, mostly, pretty much should etc. But......I had a bullet .243/100gr deflect and hit a deer through the windpipe, in and out broadside. Had he not stopped and offered a second shot about 100 yds distant, I feel certain he would have survived. It was relatively simple wound, a ballistic bi-laryngoscopy if you will. So a bullet to the neck is not always fatal.

As others have noted, a proper .223 bullet designed for deer sized game will indeed reliably take whitetails. A bonded bullet , a mono bullet, or a partitioned bullet will almost certainly provide sufficient penetration on the chest cavity of an "average" sized whitetail, especially broadside. The mono bullets tend to be a bit long and may or may not provide satisfactory accuracy, only shooting will tell.

Further, a number of the tactical/LE loads offer bonded bullets which I have seen first hand take whitetails with chest shots, bamaboy taking his first two deer with a Mini-Mauser twisted 1:12.

Finally, if you can find some, Nosler offers a 60 gr Partition as a component (at least they used to) and Federal loaded this bullet commercially in their V-Shok line. You might find some loaded ammo with a wee bit of searching. The 60 gr Partition was designed as a semi-spitzer to limit length and allow it to stabilize in conventional slow twist sporters (1:12)

The wide popularity of the AR/5.56mm has likely, where legal (and maybe not) seen a large number of these rifles taken afield for deer The ammo companies are not ignorant to this and appropriate ammo is available. I would NOT sally forth with a 40 gr V-Max up the spout of my black rifle. Why? Because sooner or later a buck will offer a shot to the chest/shoulder when the neck is obscured and one might likely be inclined to take it. The results may or may not be satisfactory.

[Erno86]

A deer shot in the windpipe emits a heavy rasping sound when it tries to breathe; that can be heard up to approximately 200-300 yards.

Though that sound can attrack other hunters or predators.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Our OP seems to have been a drive-by. Not surprisingly, given the topic.

Hasn't been online since the post was made.

[bamaranger]

Close enough to stay on topic, I hope. If not delete or move.

We're still deer hunting here in AL and yesterday evening I took a modest 5 pt with a neck shot. Not the shot I prefer, but what was offered at the moment. Shoot or he would have escaped, and I wanted another deer for the freezer.

The angle was more head on than I perhaps realized and distance was 105 paces, about 100 yds. Shot was with left forearm braced on bar of a ladder stand. Rifle was my Dad's vintage Savage 110 in .243, 'scoped with a Leupold 3-9x, load was the 100 gr Nosler Partition running at 2950 fps.
Bullet struck about mid-neck. The deer had his head down and was above me slightly. Bullet paralled the spine on the near side about 6" before severing the spine at the base of the neck and continuing about 4" into the ribs at the top of the off shoulder. He dropped and never twitched.
I was able to recover the Partition, the rear portion intact, the front fully shredded, just the jacket remaining. Typical Partition performance and why I shoot them in .243.

Would a .223 Varmint done the same? Yes and no I think. The deer would have dropped and likely expired , provided it got through enough neck muscle to cut arteries and damage the vertebrae. Note this was not a broadside, impact the neck from an ideal broadside angle shot. Whether a 40-gr V-Max would have plowed latteraly thru enough tough neck muscles to get there I dunno. I shoot that tiny bullet in my velocity challenged MiniMauser and it is indeed fragile. But I certainly do not think a .223 bullet of any kind would have severed the spine, remained intact, and continued another 4". Does that matter? It does to me. It is not the first time I have seen a .243/100 Partion cut the spine and continue. In fact, this is the first .243 Partion of any weight I have recovered over 6 kills.

I do believe a slightly heavier .223 as discussed in other parts of this thread, or an enhanced mono or partition bullet would have reached the spine without question., though it may or may not have severed it would have damged it beyond question.

[Pumpkin]

The thing about a neck or head shot is how quickly the target area can move while the rest of the animal is still stationary. This is of course unless you are aiming at the base close to the shoulder. I’m not sure I understand the need for using such an explosive expanding bullet when others specifically designed for this use are available. It would seem to leave no room for error or other multitude of reasons for the bullet to land less than perfectly.

If you were trying this with say a 204 Ruger or 17 Rem then your choice of bullet would be much more restricted, with the 223 that isn’t the case.

Just because you can doesn’t mean you should.

[GeauxTide]

Not a fan of neck shots because I have to hold 4", whereas 8" on chest shots. 30 years ago, no problem; however, at 76, I'm not as good of a shot.

[Drm50]

You can kill a deer easy with a 22lr from a rest and deer is stationary. So gun or bullet selection for this type of deer “ shooting” is not important. The only restriction being the range your cartridge is good for. At 70yds if you can’t neck shoot a deer you might be in the wrong sport.
We have a group of people that want to use varmit cartridges on deer and another group that thinks it necessary to use magnums and 45/70s. I say quit playing games and use a rifle that is practical and matched to the game.
Some gun scribe said use enough gun to get the job done when things don’t work out as planned. Wise advice and gives the game consideration.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Drm50

I say quit playing games and use a rifle that is practical and matched to the game.

The trouble is, that is exactly the question at hand.

It would be no different than if I asked you if "XYZ video card" was sufficient for playing a particular video game.
You could easily answer, "Stop screwing around and get a card that's matched to the game"...

but that's literally what I asked. Is "this" video card matched to "that" video game?

I remember about 15 or 20 years ago when NY State legalized rifles for deer hunting, where previously only shotgun slugs had been allowed.
I was amused by how many people went to 300 Win Mags, .270 WSMs and the like, while I went to a .243 and some good friends of mine went to .223.

Those WinMag guys look at you like your nuts hunting deer with a .243. I just shrug. I never lost a deer I hit with it.

"Get enough gun" implies an objective answer to a subjective reality.

(Oh, and the OP has still never returned, so....)

[Pumpkin]

I don’t see the point, there is quite a jump in performance from the 223 to the traditional deer cartridges starting with 243.
Why handicap yourself and risk your success by choosing a minimal caliber?
“The right tool for the job” is a pretty well thought out statement when it comes to many situations in life.

[georgehwbush]

Originally Posted by Brian Pfleuger

The trouble is, that is exactly the question at hand.

It would be no different than if I asked you if "XYZ video card" was sufficient for playing a particular video game.
You could easily answer, "Stop screwing around and get a card that's matched to the game"...

but that's literally what I asked. Is "this" video card matched to "that" video game?

I remember about 15 or 20 years ago when NY State legalized rifles for deer hunting, where previously only shotgun slugs had been allowed.
I was amused by how many people went to 300 Win Mags, .270 WSMs and the like, while I went to a .243 and some good friends of mine went to .223.

Those WinMag guys look at you like your nuts hunting deer with a .243. I just shrug. I never lost a deer I hit with it.

"Get enough gun" implies an objective answer to a subjective reality.

(Oh, and the OP has still never returned, so....)

yeah that ^ ; i see no reason that a neck shot with a 223 would be any less afective than a larger gun, dead is dead.

a for instance; i resently used my ar243 to hog hunt, using an non-hunting 107SMK handload i fired one shot at a measured 166yards and kill two 120/130 lbs half grown hogs. broad side through both of them. "they say that the 243 cant do that because it's not enough gun" well "they" are just wrong. by the way there was a follow up kill shot on the second one which couldn't move but wasn't dead yet. but still i thought it impressive.

so the short answer is "if the op would ever return and read this" yes that will work.

[Drm50]

The point missed here is the term “hunting”. It’s a completely different sport than “shooting”. When actively pursuing game in their natural habitat you never know what they will do. You don’t have the luxury of resting your rifle or waiting for the game to come out to eat. In such cases you need a cartridge with knock down and expanding bullet. A lowly 30/30 meets these requirements. A 223 does not. It will do the job shooting from stands. Key word here is “shooting” not to be confused with hunting. The last 10 or 20yrs that is what deer hunting has turned into. I really chaps my rear when I hear one of these AR guys say they don’t eat deer, they always give them away. I say take your AR and go shoot some steel. Takes same level of expertise.

[georgehwbush]

yeah i guess i totally missed that. just exactly what is "hunting" ? ummm you specify that it is "NOT FROM A STANT" yet for many years that was what i was told "hunting" was, you go to a spot and watch for game... just what exactly is "hunting" ???

no. never mind. i don't want to start a flame war, and don't care what your definition of hunting it. put simply i retract my statement and story. just forget i said anything.

[Double Naught Spy]

Lightweight Varmint round to the neck out of a .223 20" AR 1/9 twist. What are your thoughts?

When you go with smaller, less powerful ammunition (all other factors being equal), you typically need to place your shots more precisely. You are going with a varmint round for the neck because you are relying on the cartridge to come apart, thereby increasing your chances of doing upper CNS damage to the spine before the fragments lose energy...but that .223 varmint round isn't going to do the amount of damage of a larger more powerful varmint round, so your shot still has to be more precise because of the underpowered cartridge.

[Brian Pfleuger]

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

so your shot still has to be more precise because of the underpowered cartridge

I don't know, I think we underestimate the damage done.

I haven't seen a huge sample size of neck shots but a fair variety, hit with 22-250 and 223 varmint bullets up to "normal" deer rounds and even 12ga slugs, and sometimes accidentally.

Every deer I've ever seen hit in the neck died instantly... the notable exceptions were two. One hit with a 150gr 30-06 and one with a 12ga slug.
They were nearly identical, even shot from the same stand by the same person. They both whirled around and ran probably 30 yards before piling up.

The concussive force, hydro-static shock, or whatever we want to say does it, does incredible damage beyond what we might think of as direct tissue damage from the bullet. I almost think I might be more worried about precision with a slower moving bigger bullet that produces less "shockwave".

But in any case, if I had a neck shot with anything from 22-250 on up, I wouldn't hesitate. I've seen enough to know it works just as reliably as a "kill zone" shot.