Winchester 94 pre 64 unknown number with E in front of the numbers

HuntMathias · February 3, 2025, 01:28 PM

Hey Hello, I recently bought a Win94 in 30-30 from a gun dealer. I don't understand the serial number (E63154) can someone help me? many thanks Nice greeting from Hamburg / Germany Mathias

ligonierbill · February 3, 2025, 02:28 PM

I believe that is a poorly stamped '8'. According to The Winchester Book by George Madis, 63154 would be a very early gun, made in 1896. Serial 863154 was produced in 1919. You can contact the Cody Firearms Museum in Wyoming. They will research it...for a fee of course.

Smoke & Recoil · February 3, 2025, 02:30 PM

Deleted...wrong thread.

Pumpkin · February 3, 2025, 06:36 PM

Curious grind marks above it. Looks more like a backwards 3 from a different stamp die.

Smoke & Recoil · February 3, 2025, 07:37 PM

Looks to me that the original serial number was removed by grinding, then a new number stamped on. Also, that (3) is stamped inverted.

Pumpkin · February 4, 2025, 03:55 PM

Is it possible that it entered a country that required a new/different serial number?

Not sure if that’s even a thing

eastbank · February 4, 2025, 06:19 PM

some one didn,t want the original serial number know for some reason, stolden-used in a crime and crudley done at that. i would not buy or own that rifle.

HuntMathias · February 5, 2025, 05:49 AM

Hello, I bought this gun legally from a gun dealer in Germany. It is also legally registered with the authority. The previous owner was a Canadian who moved to Germany. The E in front of the numbers is deliberately impressed. reg. Mat

jmr40 · February 5, 2025, 07:40 AM

The original SN has clearly been ground off and a new number stamped on it. This is a question for either Canadian or German LE to answer.

**44 AMP** · February 5, 2025, 12:21 PM

Your gun might be legal in Germany (and apparently is) because it has a number that can be used for registration purposes.

However, I'd bet good money that number was NOT applied at the Winchester factory! They don't look "right", they are not evenly spaced and the height differs.

US law prohibits possession of any firearm where the serial number has been removed, altered, or defaced. There are some legal exceptions.

I do not think the number on the gun will be of any use tracing its history or date of manufacture.

bamaranger · February 8, 2025, 02:20 PM

A M94 in Germany? First thought is the rifle belonged to some serviceman. How the rifles serial # got altered is anybody's guess.

Interestingly, I have seen some Mossberg M44 .22 trainers, bought thru CMP here in the US, with what I will call "semi-altered" serial numbers. I wonder if a rifle held at a US range in Germany, received some type of similar "alteration"?

But.....the pics of the Winchester in question, do not resemble the mods I have seen on the Mossbergs. All very interesting.

Paul B. · February 8, 2025, 04:13 PM

I haven't a clue so I guess my guess is just what it is, a guess.

Just below that buggered up serial number in a tiny but very neat stamping are the letters CIP. Underneath the CIP is the letter N. Isn't the CIP related to European proofing and possibly the letter N refers to that buggered up serial number denoting a renumbering? I'll admit that it's a wild guess at best but I really haven't heard any other ideas. It might be worth looking into.
Paul B.

FrankenMauser · February 8, 2025, 05:46 PM

That is, indeed, a CIP Nitro proof.
My guess is that the serial number on the rifle duplicated something already registered somewhere, so it had to be restamped.

That is absolutely not a factory serial number, or factory stamping.
And, I agree with a reply above - that leading "E" is just a 3 that was accidentally rotated 180 degrees.

Pumpkin · February 9, 2025, 02:50 PM

Would a gun have to be fired with some kind of proof load to get the CIP Nitro proof stamp? I had a M27 with a British Crown stamped on it, it looked almost like it was done at the factory, although I’m pretty sure it wasn’t.

FrankenMauser · February 9, 2025, 09:29 PM

Yes, it would.
They actually proof test. They don't just inspect and stamp.

February 3, 2025, 02:30 PM	#3
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 731	Deleted...wrong thread. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000 Last edited by Smoke & Recoil; February 3, 2025 at 07:32 PM. Reason: Goofed

February 3, 2025, 07:37 PM	#5
Smoke & Recoil Senior Member Join Date: August 23, 2008 Location: East shore of Lake Michigan. Posts: 731	Looks to me that the original serial number was removed by grinding, then a new number stamped on. Also, that (3) is stamped inverted. __________________ Sent from my Tandy 1000

February 5, 2025, 07:40 AM	#9
jmr40 Senior Member Join Date: June 15, 2008 Location: Georgia Posts: 10,937	The original SN has clearly been ground off and a new number stamped on it. This is a question for either Canadian or German LE to answer. __________________ "If you're still doing things the same way you were doing them 10 years ago, you're doing it wrong" Winston Churchill

February 5, 2025, 12:21 PM	#10
44 AMP Staff Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Upper US Posts: 30,179	welcome to TFL Your gun might be legal in Germany (and apparently is) because it has a number that can be used for registration purposes. However, I'd bet good money that number was NOT applied at the Winchester factory! They don't look "right", they are not evenly spaced and the height differs. US law prohibits possession of any firearm where the serial number has been removed, altered, or defaced. There are some legal exceptions. I do not think the number on the gun will be of any use tracing its history or date of manufacture. __________________ All else being equal (and it almost never is) bigger bullets tend to work better.

February 8, 2025, 02:20 PM	#11
bamaranger Senior Member Join Date: October 9, 2009 Location: North Alabama Posts: 8,673	Hmmmm?????? A M94 in Germany? First thought is the rifle belonged to some serviceman. How the rifles serial # got altered is anybody's guess. Interestingly, I have seen some Mossberg M44 .22 trainers, bought thru CMP here in the US, with what I will call "semi-altered" serial numbers. I wonder if a rifle held at a US range in Germany, received some type of similar "alteration"? But.....the pics of the Winchester in question, do not resemble the mods I have seen on the Mossbergs. All very interesting.

February 3, 2025, 02:28 PM	#2
ligonierbill Senior Member Join Date: May 20, 2007 Posts: 2,614	I believe that is a poorly stamped '8'. According to The Winchester Book by George Madis, 63154 would be a very early gun, made in 1896. Serial 863154 was produced in 1919. You can contact the Cody Firearms Museum in Wyoming. They will research it...for a fee of course.

February 3, 2025, 06:36 PM	#4
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 818	Curious grind marks above it. Looks more like a backwards 3 from a different stamp die.

February 4, 2025, 03:55 PM	#6
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 818	Is it possible that it entered a country that required a new/different serial number? Not sure if that’s even a thing

February 4, 2025, 06:19 PM	#7
eastbank Senior Member Join Date: February 7, 2008 Location: pa. Posts: 2,490	some one didn,t want the original serial number know for some reason, stolden-used in a crime and crudley done at that. i would not buy or own that rifle.

February 5, 2025, 05:49 AM	#8
HuntMathias Junior Member Join Date: February 3, 2025 Location: Germany / Hamburg Posts: 2	Hello, I bought this gun legally from a gun dealer in Germany. It is also legally registered with the authority. The previous owner was a Canadian who moved to Germany. The E in front of the numbers is deliberately impressed. reg. Mat

February 8, 2025, 04:13 PM	#12
Paul B. Senior Member Join Date: March 28, 1999 Location: Tucson, AZ Posts: 3,911	I haven't a clue so I guess my guess is just what it is, a guess. Just below that buggered up serial number in a tiny but very neat stamping are the letters CIP. Underneath the CIP is the letter N. Isn't the CIP related to European proofing and possibly the letter N refers to that buggered up serial number denoting a renumbering? I'll admit that it's a wild guess at best but I really haven't heard any other ideas. It might be worth looking into. Paul B. __________________ COMPROMISE IS NOT AN OPTION!

February 8, 2025, 05:46 PM	#13
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,717	That is, indeed, a CIP Nitro proof. My guess is that the serial number on the rifle duplicated something already registered somewhere, so it had to be restamped. That is absolutely not a factory serial number, or factory stamping. And, I agree with a reply above - that leading "E" is just a 3 that was accidentally rotated 180 degrees. __________________ -Unwilling Range Officer -Unwilling Match Designer -NRL22/PRS22/PRO -Something about broccoli and carrots

February 9, 2025, 02:50 PM	#14
Pumpkin Senior Member Join Date: October 18, 2020 Location: Seguin Texas Posts: 818	Would a gun have to be fired with some kind of proof load to get the CIP Nitro proof stamp? I had a M27 with a British Crown stamped on it, it looked almost like it was done at the factory, although I’m pretty sure it wasn’t. Last edited by Pumpkin; February 9, 2025 at 11:03 PM. Reason: Turible grammar

February 9, 2025, 09:29 PM	#15
FrankenMauser Senior Member Join Date: August 26, 2008 Location: In the valley above the plain Posts: 13,717	Yes, it would. They actually proof test. They don't just inspect and stamp. __________________ -Unwilling Range Officer -Unwilling Match Designer -NRL22/PRS22/PRO -Something about broccoli and carrots

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