How does NFA work when it's a DIY conversion?

[Gunfixr]

About 4-5 yrs ago, iirc, I did a select fire Saiga 12 for an ffl with sot. I made a demo video for him once it was up and running, about 5 minutes.

YouTube, Gunfixr Select Fire Saiga

Enjoy.

[Deja vu]

Thank you! That does explain it.

[Koda94]

Gunfixr, is that a lefty saiga In your youtube vid?

[44 AMP]

ATF is only enforcing the onerous requirements of the National Firearms Act of 1934.......passed by Congress. It's a tax, no different than the taxes collected on tobacco and alcohol.....just more paperwork and waiting

No, it is a little different than the tax on booze or tobacco, since the 86 ban, the machine gun part is more like the fed tax on pot. It exists, you can even pay it, but they won't let you buy the item.

Sadly, unlike pot (right or wrong) there is no local "grassroots" push to de-restrict machineguns. There is some for "silencers" and even some for SBRs and shotguns, but not machine guns. That's just too much for the generations of conditioned thought in the USA today.

[dogtown tom]

44 AMP No, it is a little different than the tax on booze or tobacco, since the 86 ban, the machine gun part is more like the fed tax on pot. It exists, you can even pay it, but they won't let you buy the item.

The Federal Marihuana Tax was ruled unconstitutional in 1969......you could not pay it if you wanted to.

[Gunfixr]

Koda, the gun itself is not a lefty, but it does have a left hand side charging handle, iirc.

[Gunfixr]

That gun was a lot of fun. Had it about 2-3 months before sending it to the customer, waiting on the form 3 (dealer to dealer).
Was shooting it pretty regular. Even at the cheap $5 a box stuff, it was adding up, so while we hated to see it go, my wallet sure didn't mind it going.
Even took it to a 3 gun shoot.

[barnbwt]

"The Federal Marihuana Tax was ruled unconstitutional in 1969......you could not pay it if you wanted to."
Odd, since it's plain that's exactly how the Registry works, isn't it? Or is the fact they "accept" your payment prior to disapproving the form & refunding you the 'legal' difference that covers them? In any case, there's an awful lot of people pleading with the Bureau to take their money for taxes that go unsatisfied...

TCB

[dogtown tom]

barnbwt "The Federal Marihuana Tax was ruled unconstitutional in 1969......you could not pay it if you wanted to."
Odd, since it's plain that's exactly how the Registry works, isn't it?

No, the machine gun registry closed due to the Hughes Amendment to the Firearm Owners Protection Act of 1986.

In the first, the tax was ruled unconstitutional, the closing of the registry was legislation that prohibited new firearms from being added. It has not been ruled unconstitutional.

[deblaw223]

President Reagan signed the 1986 Act right? Can't figure that out

[Tom Servo]

President Reagan signed the 1986 Act right? Can't figure that out

The FOPA did a great deal of good for a great many people. President Reagan was encouraged and inclined to support it in its unamended form.

Senator Hughes introduced his amendment at the last minute. He also poured on tons of rhetoric about saving school children from the scourge of drug dealers with machine guns and whatnot. He was able to get enough votes to keep it attached.

Supporters of the bill didn't want to wait until the next legislative session, in which the balance of congress might have changed. The idea was that the amendment would have been overturned later. Unfortunately, that didn't happen.

[Machineguntony]

The time to overturn Hughes has long passed. In a few more generations, machine guns will become antiques. With enough passage of time, there will be no more civilian machine guns, even if it takes a few hundred of years.

At least we're lucky that we don't have the situation in Canada. The situation in Canada is that only current machine gun owners can buy machine guns, and the machine guns must come from current owners. Thus, the situation in Canada is that there are: 1. no new machine guns; and 2. there are no new machine gun owners.

In Cananda, they have a Highlander situation, where one day, the last surviving machine gun owner will own all the machine guns in Canada. After the Canadian Highlander gets all the Canadian machine guns, he will live forever and rule the Canadian Earth. The end.

[deblaw223]

I agree. The machine gun ban should go away. I just can't see it happening without a major shift in this country. Heck, most republican gun owners are OK with gun bans of some sort of another

[Skans]

Readymade lightning links (assuming you can buy one) sell for $5000-$10000, insane for a little 10-cent piece of metal you could make in an hour. Cripes.

True, but it's probably even easier to make an FNC autosear: http://picturearchive.gunauction.com...6da3f2439f.jpg

most republican gun owners are OK with gun bans of some sort of another

I don't think this is true. And, why make this about Republicans???

[Machineguntony]

The more I think about the machine gun ban, the more I get upset. I mean, if I showed you my 30 year old pistol, most young kids would think, "that thing is ugly". Show them a brand new H&K pistol, and it's the coolest thing ever.

But everyone who sees a legal machine gun thinks it's so cool. It's another ugly 30 year old gun!

And the more I look at an MP7, the madder I get.

My apologies to the older shooters. lol.

[Prof Young]

What does SOT stand for?

Live well, be safe
Prof Young

[jabba21]

Originally Posted by Prof Young

What does SOT stand for?



Live well, be safe

Prof Young

Special occupational tax. It's a tax FFLs pay to deal in or manufacture NFA items.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by jabba21

Special occupational tax. It's a tax FFLs pay to deal in or manufacture NFA items.

And to elaborate futher, that's where the term "Class 3" comes from, which is a term that's often misunderstood. A Class 3 SOT is the type of SOT that allows a dealer to sell Title II (NFA) firearms. But a lot of dealers that people refer to as "Class 3" dealers actually don't have a Class 3 SOT, they have a Class 2 instead. A Class 2 SOT is even better than a Class 3 because it allows the dealer to both manufacture and sell Title II firearms.

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard........ A Class 2 SOT is even better than a Class 3 because it allows the dealer to both manufacture and sell Title II firearms.

Nope.
01FFL's....."Dealer"....gets a Class 3 SOT......it allows them to ONLY deal in NFA firearms.
07FFL's...."Manufacturer"......gets a Class 2 SOT....it allows dealing and manufacturing of NFA firearms.

An 01FFL cannot get a Class 2 SOT.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

Nope.
01FFL's....."Dealer"....gets a Class 3 SOT......it allows them to ONLY deal in NFA firearms.
07FFL's...."Manufacturer"......gets a Class 2 SOT....it allows dealing and manufacturing of NFA firearms.

An 01FFL cannot get a Class 2 SOT.

When did I ever claim that an 01 FFL could get a Class 2 SOT? Nothing I posted was even remotely incorrect.

Having a Class 2 SOT requires a manufacturing FFL, such as an 07 that allows you to be both a manufacturer and dealer. Both dealers I've worked at had an 07 FFL and a Class 2 SOT.

Are you specifically referring to my use of the word "dealer"? I was using that word in a general sense, I wasn't specifically referring to 01 FFLs. But even then, you can be both a manufacturer and a dealer at the same time. Lots of dealers have manufacturing FFLs even though they don't do much in the way of manufacturing. It's not incorrect to refer to those types of dealers as "dealers".

The store I work at deals in guns and NFA items, so many people would call us a dealer. We also have a Class 2 SOT. So tell me again how anything I wrote in post #43 is incorrect?

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard .....The store I work at deals in guns and NFA items, so many people would call us a dealer. We also have a Class 2 SOT. So tell me again how anything I wrote in post #43 is incorrect?

When you wrote: "....A Class 2 SOT is even better than a Class 3 because it allows the dealer to both manufacture and sell Title II firearms.."
That implies that a "Dealer" has the option of a Class 2 SOT or a Class 3 SOT.......they don't.

It is quite common on this forum and others for neophyte and aspiring dealers to want to now what they can and cannot do as a Federal Firearms Licensee.
Imprecise language muddies the water. Your post did that.

[Theohazard]

Originally Posted by dogtown tom

When you wrote: "....A Class 2 SOT is even better than a Class 3 because it allows the dealer to both manufacture and sell Title II firearms.."
That implies that a "Dealer" has the option of a Class 2 SOT or a Class 3 SOT.......they don't.

It is quite common on this forum and others for neophyte and aspiring dealers to want to now what they can and cannot do as a Federal Firearms Licensee.
Imprecise language muddies the water. Your post did that.

I didn't write my post specifically for aspiring dealers, I wrote my post for the average gun owner who visits these forums. Should I be expected to delve into every single detail of every single gun law in every post?

I used the term "dealer" as most people here use it; it's the place we go to buy guns. And a dealer can -- and often does -- have a manufacturing FFL.

My post was simplistic, and that was intentional. If you feel the need to elaborate when someone posts about stuff like this, then feel free. But don't come on here and "correct" someone who hasn't posted any incorrect information.

[Tom Servo]

But don't come on here and "correct" someone who hasn't posted any incorrect information.

The line between inaccurate and incorrect can be tricky. When it comes to legal issues, it can be dangerous.

Consider the nature of this subforum, and of this particular thread. There's every possibility that posts here could be taken by a third party as valid advice or guidance. As such, it does fall to us to be somewhat exacting and absolutely correct.

[Sharkbite]

More (or maybe less) Coffee Gentlemen.

[dogtown tom]

Theohazard .....I didn't write my post specifically for aspiring dealers, I wrote my post for the average gun owner who visits these forums.

The "average gun owner" doesn't give a rats hiney whether his dealer has a Class 2 or Class 3 SOT.

Should I be expected to delve into every single detail of every single gun law in every post?

When you "elaborate" on someone else's post you shouldn't muddy the water.

I used the term "dealer" as most people here use it; it's the place we go to buy guns. And a dealer can -- and often does -- have a manufacturing FFL.

Often? 01/02's outnumber 07's by almost 7:1