need help with specialty loads...

[1911-38spl]

Hey guys,
I have just bought a big batch of reloading equipment at auction including a RCBS junior, dies, 8500 primers, bunch of cleaning supplies, etc.

The reason I am starting to reload is b/c I recieved a 1911 from my uncle (was Grandpa's origionally). My Grand father had it converted to .38spl (wadcutter I was told) with a match grade barrel but couldn't find any off the shelf ammo to that I could use reliably (ie: flat wadcutters catch the back rim of the barrel and jam the slide open every 2-3 round. I know my grandfather shot this gun regularly with the .38spl conversion as my uncle remembers him doing so earlier in child hood. I've had it to 2 gunsmiths that polished the ramp, played with spring tention, etc to try to get it to fire right...

Grandpa died or I would ask what the deal is... We were cleaning up some of his reloading things in the basement and I came across short .38spl cases!!!!

I think grandpa might have been shortening the cases and using round nose bullets to shoot the gun. I have now read that there is plenty of room in the .38spl cases to be trimmed down. One article I read said a wadcutter takes just under 1/2 the length of the inside of the case and the 4.2grain powder charge he was using used just under 1/3 of the case. This would leave 1/6 of the length of the case be able to be trimmed? I am planning on trying to shorten the cases and use rounder nosed bullets so they feed better, but I am concerned about the pressure that reducing the case might cause... Any thoughts about how to construct these rounds and addressing my pressure concerns is what I am looking to find out. Or if someone can point me in the right direction...

I don't want to make these rounds blindly without somewhere to start (ie blow my gun up b/c I am a novice...).

Please HELP!

Nathan

[Unclenick]

Welcome to the forum.

OK. First, with a given powder charge, you can't change the size of the powder space under the bullet without changing pressure. The load appropriate for the wadcutter won't be appropriate for the round nose if the seating depth is different. You can determine that for yourself:

Seating Depth = case length + bullet length - COL (Cartridge Overall Length).

You will need to use the original un-trimmed case length for both bullets when making this comparison. The idea is to keep the space under the bullet the same.

Second, for a given charge you can't increase bullet weight without increasing pressure, nor decrease it without decreasing pressure. A 148 grain round nose is not common. A 158 is common, but you will want to back the load off 10% and work up with that. If you got a 125 grain round flat CAS bullet, then you could actually increase charge a little. You'll want to know how to work loads up for that.

If you keep seating depth and bullet weight the same for the round nose as you had for the wadcutter, you will be fine.

Third, 4.2 grains of what? If it was Bullseye (the most common target powder for .45 Auto and .38 Special for a long time), that's a warm load compared to a standard wadcutter. 2.7 grains was the most common wadcutter Bullseye load for a long time. I don't know what springs the gunsmith tried, but if you have a recoil spring selected for 4.2 grains (a near maximum load with a wadcutter) then it may need to be lightened to let the slide get all the way to the rear so it has enough run-up to get enough inertia to finish chambering a round.

[1911-38spl]

It was either accurate no.2 or bullseye.

I am just starting to learn about reloading... Is there a way to back calculate the powder load I would need given certain perameters. I know .38spl round nose won't fit the mag and thus the shortened case idea. I can use a dial caliper to get the overall cartridge length the mag will accept. I can also measure the length of the bullets I want to use and get their weight. Would that be enough to calculate the amount I would need to trim from the case and the powder load i would need to use?

I am trying to back calculate what grandpa was loading b/c I don't have the cash to convert it back to 45acp (and the origional 45 parts are long gone).

I can swap springs later to match the loads I making was my second thought... Does that make sense?

[brickeyee]

You have a wadcutter target conversion gun.

It does not need shortened cases, just correctly loaded.

If the "4.2grain powder charge" is Bullseye it is way hotter than needed or desired (especially with hollow base wadcutters).

The edges of the wadcutter may need to be barely proud of the case mouth (think a few hundredths of an inch).

This makes sure the lead slides on the ramp and not the case mouth.

The recoil spring will be very light for this load and gun.

You will mess it up in short order using anything but what it was designed for.

Around 800 ft/s target loads.

[TATER]

.38 spl. or .38 acp. ???

[1911-38spl]

interesting...

So what would a grain load look like in the regular .38spl cases? Maybe the spring it in and the springs my gunsmith were using were to hard for the gun and i need lighter springs... What springs would you recommend brickeyee??

I just want to be able to shoot the dang thing and I am sure grandpa was making target loads b/c there is tons of wadcutter stuff...

[1911-38spl]

pretty sure .38slp... there wasn't any .38acp stuff with grandpa's reloading stuff and i would think that the .38acp might have been caught by the 2 gunsmiths I took it too...

[zippy13]

My standard wadcutters, set flush over 2.7-Gr of Bullseye, work fine in my S&W Master as well as .38 Spcl Colt 1911. I use a very light crimp, a pinch more than is required to remove the reloading bell at the case mouth.

Have you tried factory target ammo in this gun?

[TATER]

Thats pretty neat.

[243winxb]

Are you sure its not a 38 super? The brass is shorter. See the difference here > http://www.stevespages.com/page8d.htm

[oneoldsap]

I wonder if Gramps was shooting the .38 wadcutter round that the S&W model 52s were chambered for ! Sure sounds like the right time frame when that game was being played . Alot of 1911s were rebarreled to shoot that round because it was cheaper than buying a S&W 52 Target !

[steveno]

look at a 38 amu round and see if that is what the pistol is chamber for. it is a rimless 38 special. loaded ammo is probably collector status. I'm not sure if anybody makes brass for it anymore.

a while back Charles Petty had an article about the 38 amu and 38 special target guns. I was thinking it was in one of the Guns & Ammo 1911 magazines they put out once a year. you might try google on the author and see what comes up.


if you look at the latest and greatest 1911 Guns & Ammo magazine that just came out , on page 126 there is a picture of all the calibers that have been chambered in a 1911 as of the time the article was originally written which was 1971. in the picture the 38 amu is the round 4th from the left end and the 38 special is the fifth one.


google on 38 amu and it looks like should all you need to know if the 38 amu is what you have

[zippy13]

Typically, handguns have the correct cartridge indicated on the barrel, what does it say on the 1911?

[Pukindog]

My S&W 52 and Colt 1911 Mid range love 3.0 grains of Bullseye in back of a 148 gr. hollow base wadcutter.

Jeff

[1911-38spl]

To the barrel comment... the slide is bare except the custom engraving... "38spc H.R." Do I need to dissassemble to and look at the actual barrel itself??? there isn't any other markings except the origional serial number (indicating wwII 45 origionally).



90% sure it's not a super... that would be easy enough for the gunsmiths to see. AMU rounds and other older specialty rounds might not be thought of right away.

As for the AMU I have heard of those rounds before but I have not found any rounds to try it yet (looking at local gunshows, gunshops, etc...) Is there a way to tell the difference between a AMU and Special gun???? Pictures of the differences would be better since I am still learning and will not notice subtle differences by reading about them... I will take better pics and load this weekend or next monday when I get back to work. I am guessing that oneoldsap and steveno were both refering to the AMU rounds.

As for the .38 auto rounds... Are those the same as AMU rounds?

Thanks for all the help guys this is very helpful! My wife likes the .38special revolver (chicago police origionally), so when we go to shoot I'd like to have my 1911 ready to go in .38 as well...

[Unclenick]

.38 Special has a rim, while the others mentioned do not. You should be able to see the chamber contour for the rim at the back of the barrel. I am trying to figure out what the H.R. suffix means. It may refer to the rim. If it means something funny like "half rim", then you may have to turn rims to get a good fit, that would explain the chambering issue. Worse would be if it is a reference to his own wildcat and does not have normal dimensions.

I would pull the barrel out and measure the diameter and depth of the rim recess. Drop a .38 Special case in and see if the back of the case is flush with the barrel extension (the back of the little hood at the top rear of the barrel). If it sticks out, the shortened cases are required because its a wildcat. That may be why they were trimmed.

COL should be the length of the case, for wadcutters. You'll want to trim back to set round nose to that same length.

I show No.2 taking about 10% more charge weight than Bullseye. So, 2.7 grain BE equals 3.0 grains of No.2. It's about like 231. 4.2 grains of either shows getting to .357 magnum pressures in QuickLOAD when the wadcutter is used, though QL's reliability with straight wall cases isn't great, and it won't account for how far the primer unseats the bullet before the powder starts to burn well.

[1911-38spl]

10-4... I'll disassemble and try some stuff out with it. I have had the gun for 2 years now and haven't ever been able to fire more than 3 rds without a jamed open slide... IE: I'm eager to get this worked out!

I get pics and update this thread when I know more!

Thanks guys and have a great weekend!

PS: It might read M.R. on the slide... I'm definatly not 100% that it was "H.R."

[Uncle Buck]

Tag. I want to see what you have and learn more about this gun. Thanks.

[SDC]

Two things here; one, you might have to do a chamber cast to figure out what that barrel is actually chambered for, since you need to figure out both the case length (and see if it matches the brass you've got) and see what the rim dimensions are (bullseye guns have been chambered in 38 Special wadcutter, 38 AMU, which is a semi-rimmed cartridge, and others), so you need to figure out both. There have also been versions chambered for a 45 cartridge necked down to take a 38-calibre bullet; the magazine would be a clue here.
Two, the picture you show is of a WW1-vintage 1911, since it doesn't have the trigger-finger relief cut-outs on the frame behind the trigger-guard.

[Wag]

Subscribed. Very interesting discussion.

--Wag--

[zxcvbob]

If .38 Special wadcutters fit and fire OK but they sometimes catch on the feed ramp, you might try .38 Long Colts. That should let you use a RNFP bullet. (going from memory here about the case dimensions)

I think you just need to crimp a little tighter and probably use less gunpowder. Unless what you really have is a .38 ACP (not .380) or that oddball AMU cartridge.

[Ideal Tool]

Hello 1911..just a WAG..that does kind of look like an M..though fuzzy..if it is..I wonder if it designates .38 Special Mid-Range?

[Unclenick]

Or how about: "modified"? But he say's it's an "H" not an "M", and he can see it better than we can.

[1911-38spl]

Ok guys so here is how far I got this weekend... I have 15 pics you can all see on my photobucket account but a few I will post here. Sorry the lighting isn't the best but the pics are definatly better than the previous.
http://s689.photobucket.com/albums/v...and%20Hunting/

First off lets confirm that the slide does say "38 SPE M.R."


Second I couldn't get the barrel out due to a stripped screw! GRRR!!!! Suggestions???? I already soaked in PB Blaster penetrating oil all weekend! This also means I couldn't get the barrel out to inspect for a bullet size stamp.


However I did drop a .38special wad cutter into the barrel and here is what the fitment looks like. Comments???



As for the clip and .38 spl round fitment. They get jammed up in the clip... You can see in the 2nd pic they jam with anymore than 2 rds in the mag. So shorter cases or flush set wad-cutters with lip of cartarige????

[1911-38spl]

One last annoying issue I have is the screw bosses (?) that the pistol grips go on with have stripped out in 2 of the 4 holes making taking off and installing the grips impossible!!! I'm guessing new bosses to screw into the frame can be bought cheap enough???? Comments...???? Links to parts?


Also I have the serial number but don't know if it's propper to post such information on forums...???

To the user who corrected me and said it was a WWI .45 origionally. Thanks that was my own typo... It's serial number told me it was made by Colt if that makes a difference.