Update: What is the current general consensus on carrying a modified handgun?

[Tactical Jackalope]

Times have changed drastically over the last few years.

Seems now that most striker-fired pistols have available trigger modifications. It also seems like more and more people on my end of the spectrum are dropping these into their guns.

So with trigger modifications becoming more and more prominent, would you feel more comfortable carrying a modified trigger?



(Please cite claims with a viable source and link.)

[pete2]

Unless the mod made the trigger heavier on a striker fired gun, no way I'd carry it.

[5whiskey]

I vote yes but there are conditions.

-It would have to be a drop in kit, and the pistol would have to have a "bad" trigger before I would worry with it.

-Pull weight does not go below 5lbs.

-Doesn't alter the travel length of a DAO.

I probably never will... but if I just loved everything about a certain pistol that I wanted to carry, but it had a horrible trigger, I would. I wouldn't be trying to turn an already decent trigger into a competition trigger.

[Loosedhorse]

I think these links have been the most helpful to me:

https://armedcitizensnetwork.org/gun-modifications
https://americanhandgunner.com/under...rigger-issues/
http://smith-wessonforum.com/conceal...liability.html
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...nicles-part-v/

From the last link:

The two things I would strongly advise against doing and have strongly advised against doing, would be a trigger pull lighter than the factory recommends, and removal or de-activation of a safety device.

[FITASC]

If the modifications made it so I was a much better shot able to use less shots with more e3fficient success, then I sure would. The LAST thing I would want is to make the trigger pull even heavier. The infamous NY trigger on Glocks running about 2X the factory setting do not seem to enable their officers to shoot any better, nor does it me. The drop-in 3.5# triggers are closer to 4-4.5# when actually measured so it is merely a slight improvement. As long as it is a smooth consistent trigger pull, that matters more to me for better accuracy.

[BigJimP]

I think its more of an internet discussion item ..than a real issue...

If you have to use a gun for Defense...everything you have ever done with that gun..training, how much you practice, holster, trigger, etc....is all going to come up in discovery - and in our society, it means a lawyer is going to use it against you, to try and get more money in a settlement / even if you were not charged in the shooting.

I'm a 1911 guy...and I carry a full sized Wilson 5" 1911 in 9mm....with a trigger that is factory set at 3 1/2 - 4 1/2 lbs...and mine happens to be right at 3 1/2 lbs.../ I don't lose any sleep over it...one way or another. If I wanted to carry a gun like a Sig 226...and modify the trigger, it would not worry me in the least. Carrying a gun with a 3 1/2 lb trigger is perfectly reasonable in my view as well.

[TruthTellers]

Modding a gun is fine with me, so long as I can test it for hundreds of rounds thereafter that it won't cause malfunctions and train with to become better/safer with. Lighter triggers are desirable for me because a 10 lb DAO trigger pull is flirting with disaster if I'm in a mass shooter incident and have to engage at a distance of 25+ yards.

I don't care about prosecution or other legal bs. If you're justified in shooting, then what gun you used or mods used is irrelevant.

[CDR_Glock]

The key is testing for reliability. As for liability purposes, I'm not careless with my guns. If it's going to be used for a self defense situation, then that will be the least of my worries. It will come out for one reason.

It is thought that in an adrenalinized scenario one can accidentally or negligently fire under stress if someone uses a shorter or lighter trigger.

The issues will arise with a lighter trigger if one is brandishing and pulls the trigger accidentally, or even worse, inadvertently shooting an unintended target (accidental double tap), which should be the biggest fear if one is not trained or intimately versed in it.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[15plus1]

Modified, yes, but still to something resembling a factory setting on perhaps a more expensive model of my gun, or using readily available aftermarket parts.

Edited to add: I combine both to find a good balance for me

[Rob228]

I carry a Glock 19 with a Ghost trigger disconnecter. The 5k rounds I put through it prior to the trigger, and the 7k I've put through since it have far more effect on where the rounds go than the trigger modification does. If I pulled the trigger it is because I meant to, and I'll say that on the stand should the need ever arise. A clean shoot is a clean shoot, my 4.1 pound trigger instead of a 6 pound isn't the reason I pulled the trigger.

All that being said, I really hope that in the event it ever happens, I have a reasonable DA.

[BigMikey76]

I'm not a trigger mod kinda guy, but if I were to make any changes on a carry gun, I would make sure that they were within specs of something the manufacturer offers. For example, modifying a standard Beretta to a G type, or installing a different spring kit that can be purchased from the manufacturer. That way you can always stand behind the argument that you didn't go outside the realm of what is available through the manufacturer.

[Rangerrich99]

I started modifying triggers with my first Ruger GP-100, which has been a preferred carry woods piece for me for about 20 years now. Nothing major, just lighter springs at first, for about an 8-lb. pull. More recently, I've done some light polishing work on my revolvers' triggers, but again nothing major. Just erasing some of the high spots.

Also more recently, I did a little polishing work to my 1911s' trigger bows, and adjusted the set screws, but didn't lighten the pulls on either of my carry 1911s. The polishing did seem to reduce the pull weight slightly on one of the 1911s; going from 5.5 lb. to about 4.75-5.25 lbs. The other one just got more consistent, breaking at right about 5.0 lbs.

Did about the same sort of thing to my Shield; did some polishing of appropriate parts. Then about a month ago I decided I really didn't like the hinged plastic trigger, so I bought the Apex aluminum trigger sans sear kit. Doesn't lighten the pull at all, but reduces pre-travel about 20% (according to advertising), as well as shortening the reset travel by about the same amount. An added bonus was that it made the break feel a lot more crisp.

The difference is dramatic. I compared my Shield to my buddy's all-original Shield a couple days ago, and he was so impressed he ordered an Apex trigger while we were still sitting at the table. Again, it doesn't change the pull weight at all; you have to get the sear kit to do that, the trigger kit just reduces the slop and makes the trigger break feel a little cleaner.

Since I installed the Apex trigger, I've run about 350 rounds through my Shield without issue, so it hasn't altered the gun's reliability to date. And because it's more consistent, I've been able to shoot slighter tighter groups, and it's just more enjoyable to shoot now.

In my inexpert opinion, dramatically lightening a trigger pull weight on a defensive gun is problematic at best. as others have stated, NDs could become more probable with every pound of weight shaved from a trigger pull. But making the trigger smoother, or reducing the slop just makes the gun easier to control, which should make for more accurate shots on target, should it ever come to that.

[stephen426]

Originally Posted by Rob228

I carry a Glock 19 with a Ghost trigger disconnecter. The 5k rounds I put through it prior to the trigger, and the 7k I've put through since it have far more effect on where the rounds go than the trigger modification does. If I pulled the trigger it is because I meant to, and I'll say that on the stand should the need ever arise. A clean shoot is a clean shoot, my 4.1 pound trigger instead of a 6 pound isn't the reason I pulled the trigger.

All that being said, I really hope that in the event it ever happens, I have a reasonable DA.

Pretty much what Rob said. I put the Ghost Pro trigger into my Glock 43. While it did lighten the trigger slightly, the main improvement was a smoother trigger with less over travel. My accuracy improved with the new trigger, but part of that may also be the additional practice. I'd say the better trigger definitely has an effect on longer range shots since the distance amplifies every minute movement.

[Snyper]

I think its more of an internet discussion item ..than a real issue...

I think that covers about 95% of the content of these forums.

[Spats McGee]

The idea that "a good shoot is a good shoot" is a gross oversimplification. It overlooks the fact that the equipment used in the shooting may well be used in the determination of whether the shooting was: (a) justified; or (b) reasonable, either one of which may be the legal standard, depending on the legal context in which it is raised.

In a SD scenario, the shooter will have to admit to having intentionally shot someone. But what if your basis for shooting evaporates during the encounter? What if the mugger sees you pointing your gun and actually, legitimately puts his hands up and asks you not to shoot? If your adrenaline is so high that you negligently shoot him anyway, you've got a whole different set of problems on your hands. In that case, that hair trigger may be a huge problem for you and cost you tens of thousands to defend, even if you win.

For the "show me the case" crowd: Magaliato v. NY comes to mind. There are others, but I have to go to work. I can try to add more later if need be.

With all of that said, I would be comfortable carrying a gun with a modified trigger, provided: (1) the pull weight was within some acceptable parameters (~4.5+ lbs?); (2) the work was done by a reputable gunsmith; (3) I could articulate under oath why I had the modifications done.

[Loosedhorse]

Originally Posted by TruthTellers

If you're justified in shooting, then what gun you used or mods used is irrelevant.

The problem with that statement is that your being justified isn't determined by you. It is determined by (first) the DA, then by the grand jury, and then by the jury; and they all can be influenced by your gun modifications.

If the DA believes and decides to argue that your too-light-by-manufacturer-standards trigger shows either recklessness or malice; or that it led to an accidental shooting rather than self-defense, well, that's going to affect how easy it is to get your actions declared "justified".

Even if you are eventually acquitted, the difference between a DA deciding not to charge you and being acquitted at trial would be several hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees; and that's not counting lost wages and other expenses. So, in my opinion of you are using a lighter-than-recommended trigger, you are gambling, and you are putting all that money on the table.

And that's if you're acquitted. If you're convicted, well, it costs you more.

OldMarksman on a different thread here makes a similar point, mentioning civil suits as well and reminding me about the insight to be gained from reading the work of Dr. Glenn E. Meyers. Massad Ayoob has written on the subject as well, his opinion having been formed from his own trial experience, other trials he's analyzed and written about, and Dr. Meyer's work.

Just suggestions. We all run our own lives, and that's the way it should be.

Edit: I see that as I was writing, Spats McGee made pretty much this same point. Thanks.

[Cheapshooter]

Don't see the need at all. A carry gun is not a precision target gun, and for acceptable accuracy the factory triggers are just fine.

[BarryLee]

Don't see the need at all. A carry gun is not a precision target gun, and for acceptable accuracy the factory triggers are just fine.

I agree the trigger on my G26 works fine for the intended purpose.

[OldMarksman]

I don't care about prosecution or other legal bs.

you really should. It can destroy your life, even if you are exonerated, and even if civil suits are settled in your favor.

If you're justified in shooting, then what gun you used or mods used is irrelevant.

More accurately, if those who evaluate what evidence is available after the fact do not charge or convict you or assess civil damages, the gun you used is irrelevant.

But in getting to that point, the gun may well be relevant.

[OldMarksman]

...your being justified isn't determined by you. It is determined by (first) the DA, then by the grand jury, and then by the jury; and they all can be influenced by your gun modifications.

If the DA believes and decides to argue that your too-light-by-manufacturer-standards trigger shows either recklessness or malice; or that it led to an accidental shooting rather than self-defense, well, that's going to affect how easy it is to get your actions declared "justified".

Even if you are eventually acquitted, the difference between a DA deciding not to charge you and being acquitted at trial would be several hundreds of thousands of dollars in legal fees; and that's not counting lost wages and other expenses. So, in my opinion of you are using a lighter-than-recommended trigger, you are gambling, and you are putting all that money on the table.

And that's if you're acquitted. If you're convicted, well, it costs you more.

All true and well put.

And even if all goes well, you may be pariah in your neighborhood and in the unemployment line.

[DT Guy]

Take a look at NYC's hit ratio since they've gone to the 'safe' 10+# triggers; the only people actually safer are the people they've shot at:

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/08/25...e-gunfire.html

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/201...hit-perp-once/

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/new-york...ots-bystander/

http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/25/justic...tate-shooting/


Anybody think a criminal or civil prosecution for shooting an innocent might be problematic?


Larry

[peggysue]

I carry a circa 1960s Colt light weight Cobra 38. The little snubbie was carried by a detective. He had the hammer bobbed and a trigger job done on it. Great gun.

[lefteye]

A shooting may lead to an inquiry about firearm modifications. It is, or at least, should be, safer to carry an unmodified handgun for self defense. The gun will be examined, including examination for modifications, and the absence of any modifications may help the shooter's defense if the shooter is charged with any offense. Modifications may be great for target or hunting handguns, but probably not for a carried self defense handgun.

[JohnKSa]

People generally fall into two camps. Those who reject any answer more complicated than "Do" or "Don't" and those who understand that sometimes simple questions have complicated answers.

If you're one of the people who believe that questions must have simple answers, then the most accurate answer is "Don't".

If you're willing to accept a more complicated answer, then the answer is: "It depends."

It depends on a number of things:

1. How it was modified? Does the modification smooth the trigger? Make it heavier? Make the pull shorter? Does it disable or alter the function of any of the safeties of the pistol? Some modifications are pretty bulletproof. Others could open a can of worms.

2. What was it like initially? If the pull was unusually heavy for a firearm of that type, then having it changed to meet the typical spec is likely pretty safe. If it was already typical, then it may be necessary to explain how the modification really made it better. The explanation will need to be so simple that someone who's not interested in firearms can easily understand it.

3. How did it end up/how does it compare to the triggers on other similar pistols intended for LE or self-defense use? Pretty self-explanatory. If it's obviously atypical for a self-defense/LE pistol of its general type, then one should be prepared to justify the difference. Some results might be easy to justify, others could be very difficult, or perhaps impossible to justify.

4. Who did the modification? If you sent it back to the manufacturer to remedy an unusually heavy pull, or to remedy some other problem, then it's obviously going to be harder for someone to argue that the change was performed improperly or that it resulted in an unsafe configuration. If you bought a part off the internet and put it in yourself, that might not sound nearly as safe or proper to a jury. Expect to have to provide a good explanation--or to pay an expert witness to do it for you.

5. What were the other circumstances of the shooting? It is possible for the circumstances of the shooting to be so blatantly obviously justified that no one is ever going to question anything about the gun. If you happen to be on the scene when a mass murderer slaughters the security detail and tries to shoot a supreme court justice during a live tv interview and you stop him with your carry gun, it's pretty unlikely that there will be any questions about what kind of gun you used or how it had been modified. On the other hand, if the circumstances of the shooting are such that there's some room for doubt about its justification, then one could reasonably expect that issues that might otherwise be glossed over might get a center stage treatment.

Things to keep in mind:

1. If firearm modifications become a topic during a trial, no one is going to care much about your opinions on what's safe or reasonable when it comes to firearm triggers. That will be decided by expert witnesses, manufacturer recommendations, etc.

2. Your fate will be decided by a bunch of people who learned about firearms from watching movies and tv shows. You won't be arguing your case against a bunch of gun enthusiasts.

3. You'll be arguing against a person whose profession is making people look guilty and that person will be performing for the benefit of people who have never sat in your position and don't have your knowledge of firearms.

4. It's important not to focus exclusively on criminal prosecution. Civil prosecution may not take your freedom away, but it can take virtually everything else away from you. It's also much harder to defend against a civil suit since the standard of proof is much easier.

5. If the modification makes it easier to argue that your self-defense shooting was more likely to be an accidental shooting than an intentional one, this could be a very attractive option for the basis of a civil suit. Depending on the circumstances, an accidental shooting may bring your insurance company and their deep pockets into the suit as a defendant alongside you. Insurance companies pay for accidents--but usually not for intentional acts.

*****
Bonus material:

Bob: Let's say I am attacked by three persons acting irrationally. One large and strong unarmed person with a bad limp, one very small person with poor eyesight confined to a wheelchair and armed with a firearm and one medium-sized person with a baseball bat and a prosthetic leg. So since I'm carrying my super-modified race gun with the 1lb trigger, I shoot the glasses off the guy in the wheelchair so he can't see at all. The guy with the baseball bat trips on the glasses and falls down. Now, if the large unarmed guy with the bad limp comes at me slowly, would I be justified in shooting him too if my only avenue of escape is to cross a road with a medium level of traffic which could endanger my life?

Bill: Wait, you're using a gun with a modified trigger for self-defense? Don't you know that experts say that could cause problems in court?

Bob: Yeah, but I don't care--why should I waste my time worrying about something hypothetical like that!

[Don P]

I voted NO. I based my decision on what I learned while attending the MAG 40 class this past October.