Open Carry Vs. Concealed carry - Page 6

orionengnr · October 16, 2007, 09:21 PM

When I do, I'll have to reconsider my vote.

Silentarmy · October 16, 2007, 10:59 PM

I must admit that I laughed audibly when I read there was an "Open Carry Forum". I guess it would be nice to go somewhere where your 18th century tactics were accepted by a few others! Having been a Range officer in the past, I know there are enough Scary Morons carrying concealed that if those same disturbed individuals were packing in plain view, it would take only months for our gun rights to dissappear! I dealt with enough Mentally unsound people as they applied for their permits that I carry concealed as much in fear that they may have actually passed and got their permits! Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig!

Al Norris · October 17, 2007, 07:31 AM

Quote:

Open carry is ... socially unacceptable.

Thank you for proving my point.

Glenn E. Meyer · October 17, 2007, 08:52 AM

Dear Al:

Thanks so much for clarifying your position. It makes a lot of sense. I think that open carry should be legal. Whether one chooses to, for various reasons, is a personal choice.

I agree that laws against carry were part of the general trend to take away gun carrying and possession rights. The irony is the point I was trying to make that the shall issue movement was an incremental step to weaken those absolute bans and raise RKBA issues for the general public.

BluesBear · October 17, 2007, 09:32 AM

Quote:

I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig!

What happens when you stumble across someone like me who wears the same holster for open carry as I do for concealed with the only difference being the absense of a cover garment?
Unless you are playing the part of the offense and thus presenting a weapon first I can draw defensively just as fast if not faster than you simply due to the absense of a cover garment.

At first I took offense at your "cowboy rig" remark. But upon reflection I realized that it was such a silly remark that no one could really be offended. I guess you never saw the rig that Jeff Cooper used to wear with his famous two tone Colt Commander. And I seriously doubt you ever been to a CAS event. For if you had you wouldn't be so dang smug in your boasting. Some of those gents (and ladies) and draw and fire pretty damn fast.

03Shadowbob · October 17, 2007, 09:49 AM

Yeah, I have to disagree with anyone that says he can draw from concealed just as fast or faster than he can from open carry. Concealed carry adds an additional step that does take time.
As far as open carry issues, I don't think it is tactically wise to open carry in most circumstances for reasons mentioned before this post, however I think it should be a personal decision not a government decision.

Al Norris · October 17, 2007, 01:13 PM

Glenn, I think we are pretty much on the same page.

DougO83 · October 17, 2007, 01:18 PM

I think I have to disagree with open carry being a faux pas. Some places it is fine by me. I do not agree with the moron goign around just to be obnoxious about it and stir stuff up, but it has its place, just like anything else. I do not because I live in Texas and it is illegal, but if I lived in AZ (it is legal there I believe) I certainly would carry open. I guess I have been around guns enough and carry them for work all the time that I do not really see it as an issue either way. Unfortunately, there are enough people around who are scared by a gun that it makes things hard for the rest of us.

MyXD40 · October 17, 2007, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig!

social acceptable around my area in north Denver area, as well as south Denver, east Denver, o0 and west Denver. The area of which you live in says a lot.

AND anytime you wish to hit the range up with me one day, you conceal, I open, and I promise you that I'll hit my taret faster than you will from concealed. oh, and my hole will be in the X range, or head shot if you perfer

$500 cash bet, easy win, for me

ANYWAY
the last few weeks sense I've started this post, I've been conceal carrying. No holster, just, mexican waistband-ing it? if that's what its called..between my belt and pants, right above my ass crack. It's actually quite comfortable. Sitting in the truck, walking around..my only problem is my draw. When I draw it from that position my grip on the gun is about an inch lower than where my hand should be.

..I know this becasue I was at walmart, and I wanted to see how fast I could draw from concealed, so I picked a guy by the milk and drew.. *timebomb*

^lol had to. But really..you think training more will help? Any tips? I keep drawing like that and I just can't seem to get it right..and the gun is at an angle too, which I thought would make it easier to grasp the handle..

Ruthless4christ · October 17, 2007, 11:44 PM

concealed, I i don't need anybody attacking me knowing I am ready for them. better they think i am an unsuspecting victim...and then get surprised.

Silentarmy · October 18, 2007, 12:12 AM

Shadowbob and Blues bear...
My comment on Cowboy rigs VS concealed was antagonistic for a purpose. In part to illustrate that Open Carry is socially unacceptable and we no longer live in the wild west! In some instances, I also carry with only a cover garment and this is why I Boast to prove a point. There is in most cases little difference in open VS concealed carry in draw time. As All of you will have noticed and I will get few arguments here, The biggest difference is the Juvenile attitude often present with the cowboy carriers. Excuse me if I am mistaken as this attitude may just come from being, Well... a Juvenile.
MYXD... on the range challenge, Game on! I don't get to the Denver area much but should I anytime soon I will keep an eye out for " The Kid" You should be easy to spot doing burnouts in your new truck and strutting around with the Big Iron on your hip. I suggest however that you put a few thousand more rounds through that .40 as I feel my extra 15 yrs of Maturity and actual LE and Military experience gives me an unfair advantage. Your OP has been educational (as difficult as you find it to swallow) and your questions answered. I suggest some force on force training in weapon retention as an attitude such as yours will almost certainly earn you a good pistol whipping before that lightning draw and dead eye can do you any good. There are a fair amount of Boogey men in the Denver area!

ghalleen · October 18, 2007, 12:21 AM

Quote:

the last few weeks sense I've started this post, I've been conceal carrying. No holster, just, mexican waistband-ing it? if that's what its called..between my belt and pants, right above my ass crack. It's actually quite comfortable. Sitting in the truck, walking around..my only problem is my draw. When I draw it from that position my grip on the gun is about an inch lower than where my hand should be.

I've never tried carrying without a holster. Honestly, I don't see the point.

One of my biggest concerns is making sure my gun cannot fire accidentally, and it cannot fall free. This means I insist on using a quality holster that covers the trigger, and has some type of restraint. My favorite is a thumb strap, but a good molded holster works well, also.

MyXD40 · October 18, 2007, 12:54 AM

Quote:

I've never tried carrying without a holster. Honestly, I don't see the point.

One of my biggest concerns is making sure my gun cannot fire accidentally, and it cannot fall free. This means I insist on using a quality holster that covers the trigger, and has some type of restraint. My favorite is a thumb strap, but a good molded holster works well, also.

See I thought the same thing too. But actually my gun sits tight where I put it between my belt/pants..and every night I run a mile and a half, and the gun never falls out. Plus I guess this is where the grip safty comes in handy on my XD!

BluesBear · October 18, 2007, 01:26 AM

XD, as a general rule, mexican carry, especially small of back mexican carry will never be as fast as drawing from a good holster. And since there is practically zero retention the gun will never be in exactly the same position.
Even ghetto is just as bad but at least that way the gun won't completely slip down into your personal gun free zone.
Do yourself and everyon else a favor and get a holster.

**JohnKSa** · October 18, 2007, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BluesBear

And since there is practically zero retention the gun will never be in exactly the same position.

Exactly. Which should come as no surprise seeing as...

Quote:

Originally Posted by MyXD40

...my only problem is my draw. When I draw it from that position my grip on the gun is about an inch lower than where my hand should be.

Silentarmy · October 18, 2007, 01:39 AM

Off topic But I have compiled quite a collection of "more than just a little bit out of control" posts as well as Pics that XD has posted of himself and am taking the liberty of forwarding same to several Denver area LE agencies in hopes of saving them the possible embarassment and Civil Liabilities that would certainly be invovled if this Cadet is placed on the street in postion of authority. A recent back injury has given me an obscene amount of spare time and I feel it is the reponsible thing to do. If one is to post Nonsense and Idiocy on a public forum, it would be best not to include Photo ID.

Justme · October 18, 2007, 01:41 AM

Since the "crack of your ass" is exactly where there is a beltloop on most paints I don't believe you carry a gun there between your belt and your pants. I also don't believe you jog with a gun in "mexico carry" mode without it landing on the sidewalk or wherever you are jogging. You are either lying about how you carry or lying about jogging.

Finally anyone who says, "$500 cash bet, easy win, for me" is clearly a novice. There is always someone faster and more accurate and the quickest way to find them is to have money on the outcome.

Essentially I am saying you made this stuff up and are an immature person who hasn't been around firearms very much.

BluesBear · October 18, 2007, 01:46 AM

SilentArmy, insulting people you don't know anything about while boasting of your abilities does absolutely nothing to make your sermon more entertaining. In fact such personal attacks and goundless insults are the tactics of a person with weak logic.

You're not the only one on here with valid life experiences. And classifying someone as a cowboy and a juvenile simply because they lawfully open carry is insulting and only adds to the noise.

MyXD40 · October 18, 2007, 01:47 AM

Quote:

Off topic But I have compiled quite a collection of "more than just a little bit out of control" posts as well as Pics that XD has posted of himself and am taking the liberty of forwarding same to several Denver area LE agencies in hopes of saving them the possible embarassment and Civil Liabilities that would certainly be invovled if this Cadet is placed on the street in postion of authority. A recent back injury has given me an obscene amount of spare time and I feel it is the reponsible thing to do. If one is to post Nonsense and Idiocy on a public forum, it would be best not to include Photo ID.

Nice job. Let me know how this turns out for ya.

MyXD40 · October 18, 2007, 01:51 AM

Quote:

Since the "crack of your ass" is exactly where there is a beltloop on most paints I don't believe you carry a gun there between your belt and your pants. I also don't believe you jog with a gun in "mexico carry" mode without it landing on the sidewalk or wherever you are jogging. You are either lying about how you carry or lying about jogging.

Finally anyone who says, "$500 cash bet, easy win, for me" is clearly a novice. There is always someone faster and more accurate and the quickest way to find them is to have money on the outcome.

Essentially I am saying you made this stuff up and are an immature person who hasn't been around firearms very much.

I'll be sure to take a picture for you tomorrow. Just so happens, my belt is tight enough when my gun is placed in that position, to keep it held there. And the belt loop is only how wide? The barrel of the gun sits to the left of that belt loop, and the trigger guard is pressed up against the belt loop. Sorry but you don't happen to know everything. Just to make you look like a fool as well, I'll not only take pictures, but I'll see if I can upload some videos.

And the $500 comment, clearly you lack the smarts to understand that means, uhh hello, open carry is easier/faster to draw from than concealed. It was to prove a point that I know that it's a true fact. ..some people....

BluesBear · October 18, 2007, 02:07 AM

Well XD at least he didn't make a foolish $500 bet against a person he knows nothing about regarding hitting a target at an unspecified distance, call a pistol grip a "handle" or boast about "drawing" on someone shopping INSIDE a Wal-Mart.

Personally, I stopped believing anything you said after the "my gun sits tight where I put it between my belt/pants..and every night I run a mile and a half, and the gun never falls out" hogwash. :barf:

Silentarmy · October 18, 2007, 02:07 AM

Quote:
Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig

Point missed entirely Bluesbear... While I do not believe that one should not be able to carry openly, I concede that it is generally unacceptable in todays society and the general populace armed or otherwise should not be made to fear as a result of Kids wearing their Egos ina holster on their belt! I do not boast superior skills in drawing from concealment but I do train as I carry and made that statement to make a point. Which you missed.
I Yield from said pissing match so as not to be responsible for closures such as this http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=265123

MyXD40 · October 18, 2007, 02:15 AM

Quote:

Well XD at least he didn't make a foolish $500 bet against a person he knows nothing about regarding hitting a target at an unspecified distance, call a pistol grip a "handle" or boast about "drawing" on someone shopping INSIDE a Wal-Mart.

$500 bet, look at it this way "I bet a million dollars you can't hit that can 200 feet away"..should I go back to my old post, and change the $500 to $1,000,000.00?

Quote:

Personally, I stopped believing anything you said after the "my gun sits tight where I put it between my belt/pants..and every night I run a mile and a half, and the gun never falls out" hogwash.

It's true. My belt is tight, when I have the added thickness of the gun between the belt/pants. Just like putting a matress ontop of your SUV and driving down the highway..if the tie downs are tight enough, it doesn't move..right?? Some concept. Think about it, it's not hard.

MyXD40 · October 18, 2007, 02:19 AM

Quote:

or otherwise should not be made to fear as a result of Kids wearing their Egos ina holster on their belt!

Clearly this was for me? First off, I'm not a kid. Have my own house, own truck, money in the bank, going through a divorce, old enough I think. 2nd, if I had a huge ego, and wanted to show off with my gun in my holster, I'd carry my XD40 duo-tone. Easier to see, and people notice it more, but no, I carry my all black XD40. 3rd, I always wear black dress pants, and a nice button up shirt, tucked in. Sometimes a jacket, depending on what I feel like. So clearly, I look professional, and I take care of myself.

Sometimes, you try too hard.

Justme · October 18, 2007, 02:59 AM

Quote:

Have my own house, own truck, money in the bank, going through a divorce, old enough I think

How does this prove you are not a "kid"? I had all those things when I was a "kid" in my early 20s, except the divorce, that came later. In fact I was easily a "kid" until at least age 30. I am now retired at age 46 and offer this advice, start saving now by direct deposit into the mutual fund family of your choice. The key to growing up(financially) is learning to live beneath your means instead of bragging about what you can spend money on, like $500 bets with people you don't even know. PM me if you would like some "fatherly" advice about having enough money to retire at age 46. For a start if helps if your house is small enough to be paid off before you retire(mine is).

You will find jogging easier without a tight belt on. I don't know anyone who runs a mile and a half a day in dress pants with a tight belt. But then I don't know anyone who runs a mile and a half a day anyway, people who run tend to run more like 5 - 7 a day.

View Poll Results: How do you pack?
Open Carry	17	10.69%
Concealed Carry	142	89.31%
Voters: 159. You may not vote on this poll

October 16, 2007, 09:21 PM	#126
orionengnr Senior Member Join Date: July 9, 2004 Posts: 5,177	I don't have the option of OC here When I do, I'll have to reconsider my vote.

October 16, 2007, 10:59 PM	#127
Silentarmy Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Location: Bountiful, Utah Posts: 355	LOL I must admit that I laughed audibly when I read there was an "Open Carry Forum". I guess it would be nice to go somewhere where your 18th century tactics were accepted by a few others! Having been a Range officer in the past, I know there are enough Scary Morons carrying concealed that if those same disturbed individuals were packing in plain view, it would take only months for our gun rights to dissappear! I dealt with enough Mentally unsound people as they applied for their permits that I carry concealed as much in fear that they may have actually passed and got their permits! Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig! __________________ "No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!" Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's "Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't" "What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"

October 17, 2007, 08:52 AM	#129
Glenn E. Meyer Senior Member Join Date: November 17, 2000 Posts: 20,064	Dear Al: Thanks so much for clarifying your position. It makes a lot of sense. I think that open carry should be legal. Whether one chooses to, for various reasons, is a personal choice. I agree that laws against carry were part of the general trend to take away gun carrying and possession rights. The irony is the point I was trying to make that the shall issue movement was an incremental step to weaken those absolute bans and raise RKBA issues for the general public. __________________ NRA, TSRA, IDPA, NTI, Polite Soc. - Aux Armes, Citoyens

October 17, 2007, 01:18 PM	#133
DougO83 Senior Member Join Date: June 1, 2007 Location: Texas Posts: 389	Ok I think I have to disagree with open carry being a faux pas. Some places it is fine by me. I do not agree with the moron goign around just to be obnoxious about it and stir stuff up, but it has its place, just like anything else. I do not because I live in Texas and it is illegal, but if I lived in AZ (it is legal there I believe) I certainly would carry open. I guess I have been around guns enough and carry them for work all the time that I do not really see it as an issue either way. Unfortunately, there are enough people around who are scared by a gun that it makes things hard for the rest of us. __________________ "You can all go to hell, I'm going to Texas." ---Colonel David Crockett Matt 6:33

October 17, 2007, 09:49 AM	#131
03Shadowbob Senior Member Join Date: August 8, 2006 Location: South Florida Posts: 176	Yeah, I have to disagree with anyone that says he can draw from concealed just as fast or faster than he can from open carry. Concealed carry adds an additional step that does take time. As far as open carry issues, I don't think it is tactically wise to open carry in most circumstances for reasons mentioned before this post, however I think it should be a personal decision not a government decision.

October 17, 2007, 01:13 PM	#132
Al Norris Moderator Emeritus Join Date: June 29, 2000 Location: Rupert, Idaho Posts: 9,660	Glenn, I think we are pretty much on the same page.

October 17, 2007, 11:44 PM	#135
Ruthless4christ Senior Member Join Date: June 24, 2007 Location: CNY Posts: 790	concealed concealed, I i don't need anybody attacking me knowing I am ready for them. better they think i am an unsuspecting victim...and then get surprised.

October 18, 2007, 12:12 AM	#136
Silentarmy Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Location: Bountiful, Utah Posts: 355	Shadowbob and Blues bear... My comment on Cowboy rigs VS concealed was antagonistic for a purpose. In part to illustrate that Open Carry is socially unacceptable and we no longer live in the wild west! In some instances, I also carry with only a cover garment and this is why I Boast to prove a point. There is in most cases little difference in open VS concealed carry in draw time. As All of you will have noticed and I will get few arguments here, The biggest difference is the Juvenile attitude often present with the cowboy carriers. Excuse me if I am mistaken as this attitude may just come from being, Well... a Juvenile. MYXD... on the range challenge, Game on! I don't get to the Denver area much but should I anytime soon I will keep an eye out for " The Kid" You should be easy to spot doing burnouts in your new truck and strutting around with the Big Iron on your hip. I suggest however that you put a few thousand more rounds through that .40 as I feel my extra 15 yrs of Maturity and actual LE and Military experience gives me an unfair advantage. Your OP has been educational (as difficult as you find it to swallow) and your questions answered. I suggest some force on force training in weapon retention as an attitude such as yours will almost certainly earn you a good pistol whipping before that lightning draw and dead eye can do you any good. There are a fair amount of Boogey men in the Denver area! __________________ "No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!" Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's "Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't" "What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"

October 18, 2007, 01:26 AM	#139
BluesBear Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Mill Creek, Washington (The Great Pacific NorthWet) Posts: 378	XD, as a general rule, mexican carry, especially small of back mexican carry will never be as fast as drawing from a good holster. And since there is practically zero retention the gun will never be in exactly the same position. Even ghetto is just as bad but at least that way the gun won't completely slip down into your personal gun free zone. Do yourself and everyon else a favor and get a holster. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΈ, Y'all The "Fashion Calibers" seem to come and go but when all is said and done everybody comes back to the forty-five. (Chris Curino - Kimber Mfg. Co.) __________________ Airplane Pictures

October 18, 2007, 01:39 AM	#141
Silentarmy Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Location: Bountiful, Utah Posts: 355	Off topic But I have compiled quite a collection of "more than just a little bit out of control" posts as well as Pics that XD has posted of himself and am taking the liberty of forwarding same to several Denver area LE agencies in hopes of saving them the possible embarassment and Civil Liabilities that would certainly be invovled if this Cadet is placed on the street in postion of authority. A recent back injury has given me an obscene amount of spare time and I feel it is the reponsible thing to do. If one is to post Nonsense and Idiocy on a public forum, it would be best not to include Photo ID. __________________ "No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!" Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's "Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't" "What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"

October 18, 2007, 01:41 AM	#142
Justme Junior member Join Date: June 6, 2007 Location: Ohio Posts: 1,066	Since the "crack of your ass" is exactly where there is a beltloop on most paints I don't believe you carry a gun there between your belt and your pants. I also don't believe you jog with a gun in "mexico carry" mode without it landing on the sidewalk or wherever you are jogging. You are either lying about how you carry or lying about jogging. Finally anyone who says, "$500 cash bet, easy win, for me" is clearly a novice. There is always someone faster and more accurate and the quickest way to find them is to have money on the outcome. Essentially I am saying you made this stuff up and are an immature person who hasn't been around firearms very much.

October 18, 2007, 01:46 AM	#143
BluesBear Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Mill Creek, Washington (The Great Pacific NorthWet) Posts: 378	SilentArmy, insulting people you don't know anything about while boasting of your abilities does absolutely nothing to make your sermon more entertaining. In fact such personal attacks and goundless insults are the tactics of a person with weak logic. You're not the only one on here with valid life experiences. And classifying someone as a cowboy and a juvenile simply because they lawfully open carry is insulting and only adds to the noise. __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΈ, Y'all The "Fashion Calibers" seem to come and go but when all is said and done everybody comes back to the forty-five. (Chris Curino - Kimber Mfg. Co.) __________________ Airplane Pictures

October 18, 2007, 02:07 AM	#146
BluesBear Senior Member Join Date: May 17, 2004 Location: Mill Creek, Washington (The Great Pacific NorthWet) Posts: 378	Well XD at least he didn't make a foolish $500 bet against a person he knows nothing about regarding hitting a target at an unspecified distance, call a pistol grip a "handle" or boast about "drawing" on someone shopping INSIDE a Wal-Mart. Personally, I stopped believing anything you said after the "my gun sits tight where I put it between my belt/pants..and every night I run a mile and a half, and the gun never falls out" hogwash. :barf: __________________ ΜΟΛΩΝ ΛΑΒΈ, Y'all The "Fashion Calibers" seem to come and go but when all is said and done everybody comes back to the forty-five. (Chris Curino - Kimber Mfg. Co.) __________________ Airplane Pictures

October 18, 2007, 02:07 AM	#147
Silentarmy Senior Member Join Date: August 13, 2007 Location: Bountiful, Utah Posts: 355	Quote: Open carry is unnecessary and socially unacceptable. I further argue against the OC proponents that I can draw and engage from concealment with greater efficiency than you can from your cowboy rig Point missed entirely Bluesbear... While I do not believe that one should not be able to carry openly, I concede that it is generally unacceptable in todays society and the general populace armed or otherwise should not be made to fear as a result of Kids wearing their Egos ina holster on their belt! I do not boast superior skills in drawing from concealment but I do train as I carry and made that statement to make a point. Which you missed. I Yield from said pissing match so as not to be responsible for closures such as this http://www.thefiringline.com/forums/...d.php?t=265123 __________________ "No one will Ever buy that PLASTIC gun!" Steve Gallenson, Early 1980's "Those Who live by the sword get Shot by those of us who don't" "What we learn from History is that we do not learn from History!"