CZ-75 P-01 Shooting Low

[Spencer267]

I just got back from the range after putting 200 rounds of remanufactured 115 grain FMJ from Freedom Munitions through my P-01. I've been shooting consistently low and left with the groupings leaving much to be desired. This is only at a mere 5 to 7 yards using a standard isoceles stance. I unfortunately didn't bring my Beretta 92 today to compare, but my groupings are usually pretty solid at that range when using it, usually 2 inches. I have a couple of theories. One is that I should be using 124 as opposed to 115 grain because as I understand it, the P-01 was designed for that bullet weight. Another is the trigger. When I first took my 92 to the range, I had already done a trigger job to bring the pull down to about 8 pounds. After almost 2000 rounds, it's needless to say I'm used to it. It wasn't just the trigger pull on the P-01 that was bothering me either, but also the shape of the trigger itself, that more exaggerated curve. It was actually causing some pain while I was firing. Again, I'm so used to the trigger on the 92. I'm thinking I should change out to an old style trigger as well as seriously consider a trigger job. An adjustable rear sight might also be worthy of consideration. What does everyone think? Thanks in advance.

[sigarms228]

What you describe for a right hand shooter sounds like flinching/shot anticipation. Next time have someone put a couple dummy rounds in a magazine and you will know right away if that is the case. The drill bellow can also show if that is happening.

If the pistol does not fit you well that can also cause similar problems such as trigger reach being too short if you have larger hands/longer fingers causing the shooter to pull the pistol to the left as the shot breaks for a right hand shooter.

Dry firing with the pistol unloaded will help you get better used to it and help with trigger control. I use a 9MM laser training cartridge when I dry fire and really like it. I get instant feedback on grip adjustments, trigger finger change, etc.

I doubt it has anything to do with the ammo from your description.

https://www.amazon.com/LaserLyte-LT-...training+laser

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NxyTFzgWjhk&t=138s

[JDBerg]

I’m not familiar with remanufactured Freedom Munitions 9mm FMJ, I have shot their .45ACP FMJ and it is decent range ammo. My CZ P-01 shoots dead nuts & tight groups at 5-7 yds. with Wally’s 115gr Fed Champion brass or aluminum case ammo. The trigger is fine, if there is one thing I’d change I’d put a set of CGW F.O. Front / Battlesight Rears on, zeroed as close to 1” high at 25 yds. that I could get.

[Walt Sherrill]

The weight of the bullet (115 vs 124) can't have THAT MUCH effect that close; it's only when you get out to greater distances (30 yds+) that you start to notice measurable differences.

The differences are due more to bullet speed than bullet weight, as most light rounds are faster than heavier ones. Bullets, regardless of their weight, drop at the same rate. That means, if the targets are set at the same distance, the lighter bullet gets there sooner and has dropped less.

LOW LEFT (for a right-hander) is pretty common with a new striker-fired guns, and also pretty common with a gun that's new to the shooter. (Been there, done that, more times than I care to admit.)

Group sizes? Chances are you're seeing poor quality ammo (which isn't loaded consistently) and, as you hint, a trigger design (and trigger pull) that doesn't suit you.

Get a box or two of better (pricier) ammo -- and Winchester White Box probably isn't that much better -- and see if the results change.

If you can, shoot from a rest (big bag of rice or beans inside a plastic bag), hold the gun in both hands, rest your hands on the bag, and even cock the hammer before each shot. Then slowly squeeze off the shots. That'll tell you whether its the rounds you're using, or whether you've just not gotten used to a new gun. It may be a little of both.

[TunnelRat]

I don't know that I'd jump to a trigger job at only 200 rds through the pistol and one outing. I've done trigger drop ins on a few CZs and they can be quite nice, but frankly the stock triggers aren't terrible. Maybe give it another go after a week of extensive dry fire practice?

Take say 20 min a night. Make sure the pistol is clear (empty chamber and magazine). Now check it again. Then go somewhere preferably with a solid backstop, like a basement, but if not then a wall facing the least populated direction (this is for redundancy). With the pistol at extension you press your muzzle up against the wall, then pull back from the wall an inch or so. The object in front of you should be uniform (solid color, nothing to distract you). Then just work through your trigger presses with your focus on the front sight. The goal is no movement of the front sight while doing the drill. You can add to this drill at the range by mixing in some snap caps to your magazines to catch flinching. If you don't have snap caps or don't want to hunt for them on the ground, I will also chamber one round at a time and drop a magazine. I fire that live round, then press the trigger on the empty chamber after. You can catch flinches pretty well like this. I shoot a lot and train regularly and I still get a lot of benefit from doing these drills.

[DaleA]

My 'new gun'/'new ammo' procedure is almost always the same---shoot the gun/ammo combination with as much support as I can get to see what the gun/ammo combination is capable of.

And by 'as much support as I can get' I mean sitting behind a table using a sandbag or rice bag and both hands...I use a Ransom Rest if I had one and the grip inserts for the pistol and if I knew how to actually use it.

That TELLS me a couple things:
1. Where that gun/ammo combination is shooting.
2. How tight a group that gun/ammo combination will shoot.

That allows me to DO a couple things:
1. Adjust the sights as needed.
2. Practice until I can shoot that tight a group on my own without support.

Guess what? I never can shoot a tight a group but knowing what the gun/ammo combination will do shames me to try harder.

YMMV
Good luck.

[GarandTd]

I would try some other brands of ammunition before making any changes to the pistol. I like adjustable sights. They will help get a group on a target, but they won't tighten an unsatisfactory group.

[cslinger]

My guess is, and I don’t say this as a smart Alec, is that the gun is shooting straight and YOU are shooting low and or left. Take it from me, an expert............at shooting low and or left. . .

The curved trigger might be playing hell with you on the CZ.

Try lots of dryfire and sandbagging to make sure it’s not you.

Again, please don’t take this as criticism or poking fun just trying to help and I have been there more times than not.

Chris.

[Destructo6]

Try the "ball and dummy" thing that sigarms228 mentioned and focus on what that front sight does in the process. Even those with extensive experience , with a familiar gun, can benefit from this drill.

[jackstrawIII]

Yeah, I sincerely doubt that it's the gun's fault, no offense. I have a P01 and it shoots like 2" groups at 25 years with a wide variety of bullet weights. The gun in unreal.

Low left is a trigger issue; well, an issue with you pulling the trigger. I do the same thing with my Glocks and Sig P220/P226s, no matter what I do to try and fix it. I just can't get the trigger press right, and I shoot them low left.

If you're committed to the P01 (which is a good choice, great gun), then focus on your pull. The CZ trigger feel is considerably different than some other guns. If it's not natural to you, you have to fix yourself, or get rid of the gun.

[Spencer267]

Just an update. I ended up switching out to an old style trigger and I already like it so much better. In my dry fire sessions, I'm having an easier time keeping my sights steady and feels more like my 92. I'll update again when I return to the range.

[Spencer267]

So since shooting and qualifying with a .40 caliber Glock 23 for my job, 9mm doesn't feel like anything anymore. But shooting the Glock made me realize the basics don't change between calibers and this has made me a much better shot. Now I confidently take the P-01 wherever I go and I'm sure I'll be able to effectively use it if the need arises. Now I think I'm ready to splurge on that CGW trigger job just because. Wish me luck because I'm doing it myself! ������

[Fishbed77]

It is a huge leap to jump to a trigger job after one morning of bad shooting. This sounds like it's most definitely an ammo issue or a shooter issue.

Some guns just don't shoot some ammo accurately. I have a P99 that rang steel with boring regularity until I tried some Winchester PDX JHP that I had purchased to test for potential defensive use a number of years ago. Groupings ended up FAR lower and to the left and in an scattershot pattern. The next ammo I shot was right back on target.

[HiBC]

Some guns are set up for a center of the bullseye hold . A 6 Oclock hold will shoot low.
Try really focusing on the bullseye fundamentals ,especially follow through and calling the shot.

It MIGHT be that a 124 or 147 gr would shoot higher.More bore time than a 115.

I'd suggest(from experience) you get a trigger pull measurement ,shoot another 200 rounds,and see if it gets any better. Likely,it will improve over the first 500 rounds.Springs settle in,surfaces burnish.

A "Duty and Carry"weight trigger is what you really want if you end up in court over a SD shooting.

I can't tell you exactly what that is,but its 4 lbs +. Original,stock,unaltered parts ..if they are in good shape,willl be less likely to draw scrutiny than aftermarket "trigger job" parts.

"Trigger Job" parts may install and check 5 lbs,but in a year may be a 3 lb trigger.

[mmb713]

My P01 was the same way, low and left. From experience I know it is all me. My son and a friend could all shoot to point of aim. Have someone else shoot it. As you get used to it you will shoot it to point of aim. Happened to me with some other pistols too. Other pistols I was on target out of the box.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by HiBC

Some guns are set up for a center of the bullseye hold . A 6 Oclock hold will shoot low.
Try really focusing on the bullseye fundamentals ,especially follow through and calling the shot.

It MIGHT be that a 124 or 147 gr would shoot higher.More bore time than a 115.

I'd suggest(from experience) you get a trigger pull measurement ,shoot another 200 rounds,and see if it gets any better. Likely,it will improve over the first 500 rounds.Springs settle in,surfaces burnish.

A "Duty and Carry"weight trigger is what you really want if you end up in court over a SD shooting.

I can't tell you exactly what that is,but its 4 lbs +. Original,stock,unaltered parts ..if they are in good shape,willl be less likely to draw scrutiny than aftermarket "trigger job" parts.

"Trigger Job" parts may install and check 5 lbs,but in a year may be a 3 lb trigger.

That is a total myth... Please site case law where a gun with a trigger job turned a good defensive shooting into a bad one. I have spoken with my local DA and the former DA in a larger city in my state and both agree that the gun itself will not be part of the equation to determine if you are going to be charged in a defensive shootings. The gun stock vs modified will not be part of the investigation.

To the OP. What size are your hands.... LOL The P01 and its curved trigger will sting people with larger hands. Some guns will have more trigger slap than others.

[RAfiringline]

Weather permitting, I go to range once a week with a 22 and a 9mm shooting at 5" plates from 20 ft.

Some days it seems like I can't miss. Other days, I'm totally pissed at my self.

In both cases, for me, it depends on my focus and my trigger control, not the gun and ammo.

What makes this a really good hobby is that it's challenging and puts demands on you.

[HiBC]

WVsig,and the OP;

You see,I wrote a thread a long time ago asking the question about upgrade modifications to duty/carry guns.
The topic was discussed at great length here on TFL,and the knowledgeable staff here on TFL contributed extensively.

I don't pretend to be a legal scholar,and I don't care to argue with you,WVsig.

But I give more credibility to Frank Ettin,Spats McGee,etc and the discussion we had than I do to you.

I suggest ,OP,you read the thread before you make your mods.

WVsig....given the tone of your response ,I suggest that your conversations with two people may have left you not knowing nearly as much as you think you do.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=hibc

[TunnelRat]

As for the legalities, I remember reading an article by Massad Ayoob where he stated the cases he knows of where modified triggers came up were those where the defendant argued that he pressed a trigger inadvertently, and that this combined with the modification led to an argent for negligence.

For me personally I typically don't modify the pull weight on triggers these days. I have done so a number of times in the past. I found that with the striker fired pistols I mainly use now it really doesn't make enough of a difference to be worth it, in my experience. That said I do swap out trigger shoes and the firing pin blocks but keep the original springs, so maybe that could count against me too. Somehow I've convinced myself smoothness is less of a problem than weight. When I shot DA/SA primarily I often swapped hammer springs to get to DA pulls close to 8.5-9 lb. I felt then that it was still heavy enough to not be an issue. After a while though I did start to wonder at the fact that I told myself to carry DA/SA for the added safety from the weight of the trigger pull, and yet would then lower that weight. It was one reason why I did go back to striker fired pistols.

I am not a lawyer. I do not think the weight of the trigger pull is overly likely to come up, but at the same time I figure not modifying triggers removes one potential issue. From my experience in drills and actual force on force I generally have no memory of the weight of that trigger pull, especially in the latter. I don't doubt it did play some role in how I performed, but I do think people overestimate the importance. For me personally if I don't feel comfortable with the stock trigger I pick a different pistol now.

Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk

[WannabeMiculek]

Going for a new trigger job after a morning of shooting sounds like a bit jumpy, that being said I know a few guys who send their gun to Cajun Gun Works once they get it. The trigger on the CZ isn't bad by any means but it can be improved.

[WVsig]

Originally Posted by HiBC

WVsig,and the OP;

You see,I wrote a thread a long time ago asking the question about upgrade modifications to duty/carry guns.
The topic was discussed at great length here on TFL,and the knowledgeable staff here on TFL contributed extensively.

I don't pretend to be a legal scholar,and I don't care to argue with you,WVsig.

But I give more credibility to Frank Ettin,Spats McGee,etc and the discussion we had than I do to you.

I suggest ,OP,you read the thread before you make your mods.

WVsig....given the tone of your response ,I suggest that your conversations with two people may have left you not knowing nearly as much as you think you do.

https://thefiringline.com/forums/sho...highlight=hibc

Apologies to the OP. I am not sure why HiBC felt the need to bring up the legal hypothetical about triggers jobs but to me it seems grossly off topic. There is no mention by the OP that this is even a defensive gun yet HiBC felt the need to offer his legal speculation on trigger weight.

I think it’s early to get a trigger job on the P01 because they usually smooth out after about 500 rounds. CZs are often not smooth right out of the box. That said I had a Pro package installed on my all steel P01 by CGW before even holding it. Bought it from them and put it right into their custom shop and the gun is fantastic. Superior in every way to my stock P01.

[HiBC]

WVsig...And you are just another opinion on the internet.What is special about you is that you are rude and disrespectful of the people of TFL in general .

Your pushy manner adds nothing to your credibility.

In any case,I did not ask the question in the linked post because I felt I knew everything and wanted to argue. I asked to learn something.

I did not post a reply to the OP to engage in an argument with you. I really do not care what you think. IMO,your opinion is irrelevant. I was not talking to you.

OP,you do whatever you want. I offered the thread for you to explore .

[Walt Sherrill]

Originally Posted by HiBC

WVsig...And you are just another opinion on the internet.What is special about you is that you are rude and disrespectful of the people of TFL in general .

Your pushy manner adds nothing to your credibility.

Rather than offer facts to support your argument, you resort to an ad hominem attack. Some, here, might consider THAT a bit pushy, too.

Originally Posted by WVsig

Please site case law where a gun with a trigger job turned a good defensive shooting into a bad one.

That seems like a reasonable request, to me.

Just mentioning the names of a gun magazine writer, as you did, and not sharing their supporting proofs or arguments -- if, in fact, there are any -- doesn't tell us much. Frank Ettin, a moderator on another forum, is a retired lawyer. -- maybe he can offer some citations to help you make your case.

NOTE: A trigger job doesn't always mean that the trigger is made lighter (and, implicitly, more dangerous). In some cases, it's just done to smooth things up, and take out grunge. In those cases, it might actually make the gun SAFER.

[HiBC]

Walt: You will note WVsig has edited his post.There was good reason. The post you read now is far more cordial.
My response was to his original version,which was snarky and disrespectful ,particularly to the moderators and staff here. Frank Ettin was a significant contributor in the thread I suggested,and Frank Ettin was one of the folks WVsig disrespectfully dismissed.

I absolutely agree that a trigger job is not necessarily a problem and it may be an enhancement.

If you checkout the link to the old thread here on TFL you will have the context.
I had read,here on TFL,it was ill advised to do trigger jobs on carry guns.
I wanted clarification as it did not make sense to me that pulling the original fire control parts out of a Philippine 1911 and replacing them with a Cylinder and Slide Duty and Carry 4 1/2 lb trigger would be a problem. I also was considering putting a duty and carry Apex trigger in my S+W M+P 9C

That thread was quite a discussion.It was food for thought.
Now,back to this thread. The OP is shooting low and left with a new gun,and is considering a trigger kit.
That's fine by me,I think the OP should do whatever makes him happy.

I just suggested being informed first.

I am a bit confused by your suggestion:

Just mentioning the names of a gun magazine writer, as you did, and not sharing their supporting proofs or arguments -- if, in fact, there are any -- doesn't tell us much. Frank Ettin, a moderator on another forum, is a retired lawyer. -- maybe he can offer some citations to help you make your case.

As it is apparently in response to the only names I referenced in my thread(Quoting myself)

But I give more credibility to Frank Ettin,Spats McGee,etc and the discussion we had than I do to you.

[Walt Sherrill]

You say you GIVE more credibility to two people than to WVsig -- but you tell us NOTHING about their positions on this topic, nor do you offer their rationales. You could have cited Bugs Bunny with equal effect.

Frank Ettin, if he ever worked with a modified-firearm-used-in-self-defense case, could offer some meaningful input. There really aren't that many self-defense cases, and in the handful of cases I have read about, modifications to the weapon were not a concern.

The point that most overlook, however, is not whether a trigger job or gun mods will cause a GOOD SHOOT to become a BAD ONE -- something I consider VERY UNLIKELY -- but whether such gun mods might have a negative or unpredictable effect on any following CIVIL CASE. Weird things can happen in civil cases. (The standards in a civil case are much less stringent than a criminal case, and emotion can be used by a litigant's attorney very effectively.)

Here in NC, if you use Lethal Force in a legally justified manner, state law does not allow a related/following civil suit from that incident. Not all states have such a limitation.

I've done a lot of reading and research on this topic and all I've found are OPINIONS based on conjecture. Some of those opinions were from reasonably astute attorneys who know something of the law, and they don't always agree or take the same side.

If you can find some specifics, please share them with us. You've NOT done that, thus far.

Except for CIVIL CASES, I tend to agree with WVsig -- that there's more MYTH associated with this topic than legal cases -- civil suits may not send you to jail, but they may make you a very poor person.

On the other hand, I suspect it would be hard for MOST technicians working for a law enforcement agency to KNOW whether a gun had been modified, unless the modifications were done by the village idiot (also known as BUBBA).