Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?

rpenmanparker · March 22, 2018, 06:59 PM

What is it about “iron” sights that justifies their popularity long after they have lost the battle to red dots? I’m converting my new pistols even before shooting them for the first time. I shoot so much better with a red dot than iron sights it is amazing. Never going back.

Okay, discuss.

Bartholomew Roberts · March 22, 2018, 07:16 PM

Old people. Grumpy + astigmatism + paying extra for a reddot you don't want = bad combo.

rpenmanparker · March 22, 2018, 07:25 PM

Well said!

imp · March 22, 2018, 08:26 PM

Sig, Walther, Springfield Armory, and Kimber all have red dot equipped models from the factory. It may take the other makers a few more years, but it's obviously the next leap ahead in handgun effectiveness.

rpenmanparker · March 22, 2018, 08:54 PM

Agreed. It is just that there is such a variety of iron sight offerings as if the upgraded features actually deal with the fundamental problem in these simple optics. all of the fancy iron sight offerings like night sights, tritium sights, three dot sights, fiber optic sights just don't get to the real issue, the apparent fit of the front blade in the rear notch. Depending upon the length of your arms you will see the front blade as a loose or tight fit in the rear notch. And that makes all the difference in how precisely you can aim your pistol. Red dots eliminate that problem completely. Why are such a preponderance of range tests performed with pistols equipped with some fancy version of iron sights instead of the far superior red dot?

TXAZ · March 22, 2018, 09:05 PM

I don’t like red dots. Give me iron or glass that is much better than a 1-3 MOA dot.

rpenmanparker · March 22, 2018, 09:17 PM

Red dots cut my group diameters in half.

**Aguila Blanca** · March 22, 2018, 10:02 PM

A large percentage of males suffer from red-green color vision deficiency. If you have it (which I do), red dots are useless in anything other than almost pitch darkness. Green dots are visible, but they cost a lot more than red dots for some reason.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TXAZ

I don’t like red dots. Give me iron or glass that is much better than a 1-3 MOA dot.

Agreed. I guess I'm one o' them cussed, grumpy olde phartes.

Cheapshooter · March 22, 2018, 10:21 PM

Because those "old people" have the wisdom of age, and learned long ago to not trust their life to circuits, and batteries if they don't have to.

TXAZ · March 22, 2018, 11:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

A large percentage of males suffer from red-green color vision deficiency. If you have it (which I do), red dots are useless in anything other than almost pitch darkness. Green dots are visible, but they cost a lot more than red dots for some reason.

Agreed. I guess I'm one o' them cussed, grumpy olde phartes.

I’m red-green and a little blue-yellow.
For some targets the red or green dot blends in and makes more difficult to get a precise shot. That’s not a problem with glass or some iron sights.

turkeestalker · March 23, 2018, 03:59 AM

Nothing wrong with using a red dot or any other optic on a firearm.
I've got a bunch set up with optics and my aging eyesight appreciates them, even sometimes needs them.

Many years ago I used to compete in archery shooting leagues, a bunch of tournaments here in Missouri and across the river in Illinois, even state.
I've still got a box of trophies packed away, but none were ever better than 2nd place competing in the 'limited class' using my fingers.

I insisted on not using a mechanical release aid like everyone I knew tried to convince me to do, (and seemed to be doing themselves), in order to 'solve all my problems' in using my fingers.

The way I see it, (though others may disagree as it is oversimplified), 40% of an archer's skill comes from the hand that the bow is in, and 60% from the hand releasing the bow string.

Shooting a score of 300 meant quite a bit more to me using my fingers than it would've if I had shot it using a mechanical release aid, which I believe would require considerably less skill.
That would have been bypassing the fundamentals and more or less like cheating in my mind.

IF there were ever actually a battle between iron sights and red dots, I know where I'd put my money.

darkgael · March 23, 2018, 04:59 AM

If you want to earn a Distinguished shooter badge, you gotta shoot irons.
No dots in a leg match.
Pete.

couldbeanyone · March 23, 2018, 06:09 AM

Because I don't want to have to pay for an electronic doodad that I would just take off of the gun anyway. I can easily beat 95% of the competitors in my state in a steel challenge using my iron sights, and my irons are always "on" and have never had a dead battery.

Salmoneye · March 23, 2018, 06:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cheapshooter

Because those "old people" have the wisdom of age, and learned long ago to not trust their life to circuits, and batteries if they don't have to.

This.

rpenmanparker · March 23, 2018, 06:26 AM

The idea that results obtained with a red dot aren't "real" or as praise-worthy as with iron sights is BS. Can you say luddite?

As for where to put your money in a match between red dots and irons, what do you think is happening every day in Afghanistan, etc.? And the money is on red dots. Who do you think proved out red dots in the first place? Special ops folks. You gonna argue with them?

The battery life is so long on modern red dots that power failure is a non issue. If you left the optic always on and changed the battery every month, you would spend almost nothing and still have essentially no risk of failure. Besides there are very good co-witnessing mount options available to make battery failure of no consequence.

CDW4ME · March 23, 2018, 06:27 AM

My 1911 is carried IWB, rides deep, canted forward, no room for electronic on top.
Glock 43 in weak hand front pocket (2nd option to the 1911) definitely no room in pocket for electronic on top of G 43.
That is why.

rpenmanparker · March 23, 2018, 06:31 AM

As for what competitions allow, seriously? Like I care. I compete against myself, and I allow red dots. My red dot self beats my iron sights self every single time. Folks who don't allow new technology in competition just don't want to be embarrassed by it. I want to shoot as well as you possibly can; I use a red dot.

rpenmanparker · March 23, 2018, 06:35 AM

It might be interesting to know how many red dot nay sayers have actually tried them.

Lohman446 · March 23, 2018, 07:25 AM

Quote:

Because those "old people" have the wisdom of age, and learned long ago to not trust their life to circuits, and batteries if they don't have to.

As evidenced by others quoting this in agreement I am far from the only one to agree

springer99 · March 23, 2018, 07:27 AM

I've used iron sights for many years on pistols and revolvers. I've also used red-dots on them for about the same amount of time.

My preference depends entirely on what the purpose is.

At the range or hunting, I can definitely shoot better with red-dot sights than with irons(at least now that age is gaining on me). A red-dot just makes maintaining a good sight picture so much easier.

For defensive purposed, it's a completely different story. In that case, I find red-dots much too bulky for my normal carry(either IWB or pocket). In those cases, I'll stick with iron sights alone or, to be honest, I've added laser grips to my defensive pistols/revolvers, as I've aged.

couldbeanyone · March 23, 2018, 07:29 AM

If you compete only against yourself, you will only ever be as good as YOU are. I have tried and owned several red dots. In my hands and testing irons are faster. I could care less who wins any division in a steel challenge, I want to win it outright overall. That has happened in 6 of the last seven matches. Also I have yet to see a less skilled shooter step to the box with irons, here the beep and 2 seconds later say where's the dot. By the way, did you ever really learn to use irons?

old bear · March 23, 2018, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM?

I can only tell you why I don’t care for red dot optics. They add unnecessary bulk to a carry gun. Then there is Murphy’s Law. Remember that iron sights either fixed or adjustable will never have a battery die or a wiring or connection fail.

The new optics may be just fine for target shooting, but I don't want them on any self-defense gun I carry.

rpenmanparker · March 23, 2018, 08:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by old bear

I can only tell you why I don’t care for red dot optics. They add unnecessary bulk to a carry gun. Then there is Murphy’s Law. Remember that iron sights either fixed or adjustable will never have a battery die or a wiring or connection fail.

The new optics may be just fine for target shooting, but I don't want them on any self-defense gun I carry.

Wouldn't a co-witnessing mount for the red dot eliminate the fear of the battery dying? Wouldn't changing the battery every couple of weeks do the same?

My LC9s with Burris FastFire III optic is no larger than the so-called carry gun many folks tote around. And the Galloway mounting plate for the LC9s has co-witnessing iron sights. Tough to beat.

kozak6 · March 23, 2018, 08:11 AM

No one? Seriously?

They are still far too expensive and I'm not convinced reliability is there yet.

A good one costs almost as much as the pistol, and will exceed that if an adapter or slide cut is necessary.

A set of Glock plastic sights are $20, and probably costs pennies to make.

Heck, tritium sights are $100 or less a set, and those aren't particularly standard.

Ricklin · March 23, 2018, 08:25 AM

My pocket pistol would not be a pocket pistol with a red dot on it.

March 22, 2018, 06:59 PM	#1
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Why are red dot optics not standard from the OEM? What is it about “iron” sights that justifies their popularity long after they have lost the battle to red dots? I’m converting my new pistols even before shooting them for the first time. I shoot so much better with a red dot than iron sights it is amazing. Never going back. Okay, discuss.

March 22, 2018, 09:05 PM	#6
TXAZ Senior Member Join Date: September 5, 2010 Location: McMurdo Sound Texas Posts: 4,322	I don’t like red dots. Give me iron or glass that is much better than a 1-3 MOA dot. __________________ Cave illos in guns et backhoes

March 22, 2018, 10:21 PM	#9
Cheapshooter Senior Member Join Date: December 2, 2007 Location: Missouri Posts: 8,306	Because those "old people" have the wisdom of age, and learned long ago to not trust their life to circuits, and batteries if they don't have to. __________________ Cheapshooter's rules of gun ownership #1: NEVER SELL OR TRADE ANYTHING!

March 23, 2018, 03:59 AM	#11
turkeestalker Senior Member Join Date: February 2, 2015 Location: Cottleville, Missouri Posts: 1,115	Nothing wrong with using a red dot or any other optic on a firearm. I've got a bunch set up with optics and my aging eyesight appreciates them, even sometimes needs them. Many years ago I used to compete in archery shooting leagues, a bunch of tournaments here in Missouri and across the river in Illinois, even state. I've still got a box of trophies packed away, but none were ever better than 2nd place competing in the 'limited class' using my fingers. I insisted on *not* using a mechanical release aid like everyone I knew tried to convince me to do, (and seemed to be doing themselves), in order to 'solve all my problems' in using my fingers. The way I see it, (though others may disagree as it is oversimplified), 40% of an archer's skill comes from the hand that the bow is in, and 60% from the hand releasing the bow string. Shooting a score of 300 meant quite a bit more to me using my fingers than it would've if I had shot it using a mechanical release aid, which I believe would require considerably less skill. That would have been bypassing the fundamentals and more or less like cheating in my mind. IF there were ever actually a battle between iron sights and red dots, I know where I'd put my money. __________________ Vegetarian... primitive word for lousy hunter!

March 23, 2018, 04:59 AM	#12
darkgael Senior Member Join Date: February 9, 2006 Location: Homes in Brooklyn, NY and in Pennsylvania. Posts: 5,473	If you want to earn a Distinguished shooter badge, you gotta shoot irons. No dots in a leg match. Pete. __________________ “Auto racing, bull fighting, and mountain climbing are the only real sports ... all others are games.” Ernest Hemingway ... NRA Life Member

March 22, 2018, 07:16 PM	#2
Bartholomew Roberts member Join Date: June 12, 2000 Location: Texas and Oklahoma area Posts: 8,462	Old people. Grumpy + astigmatism + paying extra for a reddot you don't want = bad combo.

March 22, 2018, 07:25 PM	#3
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Well said!

March 22, 2018, 08:26 PM	#4
imp Senior Member Join Date: November 11, 2006 Posts: 626	Sig, Walther, Springfield Armory, and Kimber all have red dot equipped models from the factory. It may take the other makers a few more years, but it's obviously the next leap ahead in handgun effectiveness.

March 22, 2018, 08:54 PM	#5
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Agreed. It is just that there is such a variety of iron sight offerings as if the upgraded features actually deal with the fundamental problem in these simple optics. all of the fancy iron sight offerings like night sights, tritium sights, three dot sights, fiber optic sights just don't get to the real issue, the apparent fit of the front blade in the rear notch. Depending upon the length of your arms you will see the front blade as a loose or tight fit in the rear notch. And that makes all the difference in how precisely you can aim your pistol. Red dots eliminate that problem completely. Why are such a preponderance of range tests performed with pistols equipped with some fancy version of iron sights instead of the far superior red dot?

March 22, 2018, 09:17 PM	#7
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	Red dots cut my group diameters in half.

March 23, 2018, 06:09 AM	#13
couldbeanyone Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 139	Because I don't want to have to pay for an electronic doodad that I would just take off of the gun anyway. I can easily beat 95% of the competitors in my state in a steel challenge using my iron sights, and my irons are always "on" and have never had a dead battery.

March 23, 2018, 06:26 AM	#15
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	The idea that results obtained with a red dot aren't "real" or as praise-worthy as with iron sights is BS. Can you say luddite? As for where to put your money in a match between red dots and irons, what do you think is happening every day in Afghanistan, etc.? And the money is on red dots. Who do you think proved out red dots in the first place? Special ops folks. You gonna argue with them? The battery life is so long on modern red dots that power failure is a non issue. If you left the optic always on and changed the battery every month, you would spend almost nothing and still have essentially no risk of failure. Besides there are very good co-witnessing mount options available to make battery failure of no consequence. Last edited by rpenmanparker; March 23, 2018 at 06:33 AM.

March 23, 2018, 06:27 AM	#16
CDW4ME Senior Member Join Date: March 18, 2009 Posts: 1,321	My 1911 is carried IWB, rides deep, canted forward, no room for electronic on top. Glock 43 in weak hand front pocket (2nd option to the 1911) definitely no room in pocket for electronic on top of G 43. That is why. __________________ Strive to carry the handgun you would want anywhere, everywhere; forget that good area bullcrap. "Wouldn't want to / Nobody volunteer to" get shot by _____ is not indicative of quickly incapacitating.

March 23, 2018, 06:31 AM	#17
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	As for what competitions allow, seriously? Like I care. I compete against myself, and I allow red dots. My red dot self beats my iron sights self every single time. Folks who don't allow new technology in competition just don't want to be embarrassed by it. I want to shoot as well as you possibly can; I use a red dot.

March 23, 2018, 06:35 AM	#18
rpenmanparker Senior Member Join Date: March 20, 2018 Posts: 122	It might be interesting to know how many red dot nay sayers have actually tried them.

March 23, 2018, 07:27 AM	#20
springer99 Senior Member Join Date: November 14, 2008 Posts: 355	I've used iron sights for many years on pistols and revolvers. I've also used red-dots on them for about the same amount of time. My preference depends entirely on what the purpose is. At the range or hunting, I can definitely shoot better with red-dot sights than with irons(at least now that age is gaining on me). A red-dot just makes maintaining a good sight picture so much easier. For defensive purposed, it's a completely different story. In that case, I find red-dots much too bulky for my normal carry(either IWB or pocket). In those cases, I'll stick with iron sights alone or, to be honest, I've added laser grips to my defensive pistols/revolvers, as I've aged.

March 23, 2018, 07:29 AM	#21
couldbeanyone Senior Member Join Date: March 11, 2006 Location: Oklahoma Posts: 139	If you compete only against yourself, you will only ever be as good as YOU are. I have tried and owned several red dots. In my hands and testing irons are faster. I could care less who wins any division in a steel challenge, I want to win it outright overall. That has happened in 6 of the last seven matches. Also I have yet to see a less skilled shooter step to the box with irons, here the beep and 2 seconds later say where's the dot. By the way, did you ever really learn to use irons?

March 23, 2018, 08:11 AM	#24
kozak6 Senior Member Join Date: June 16, 2005 Location: AZ Posts: 3,113	No one? Seriously? They are still far too expensive and I'm not convinced reliability is there yet. A good one costs almost as much as the pistol, and will exceed that if an adapter or slide cut is necessary. A set of Glock plastic sights are $20, and probably costs pennies to make. Heck, tritium sights are $100 or less a set, and those aren't particularly standard.

March 23, 2018, 08:25 AM	#25
Ricklin Senior Member Join Date: February 22, 2008 Location: SW Washington state Posts: 2,013	Pocket pistol My pocket pistol would not be a pocket pistol with a red dot on it. __________________ ricklin Freedom is not free