dented brass from a Llama

Alex Johnson · December 28, 2000, 02:57 PM

I just bought a Llama Micro Max .380 from a local gunshop. The price was right and it was brand new. I rather like this little pistol, I've put over a hundred rounds through it since I bought it and it has smoothed up nicely and seems to be 100% reliable with the handloads I've fed it. It does have one annoying little problem. The mouth of the cases all seem to be dented when they come out of the pistol. It's not a major problem and the dents don't prevent me from reloading the brass (though I'm sure they won't last as long). I was wondering if it's an extractor problem that's causing this. I do lots of gun work, but have limited experience with auto pistols and their workings. Any ideas would be appreciated.

George Stringer · December 29, 2000, 08:34 AM

Alex, this is fairly common. What's happening is the brass is hitting the bottom of the ejection port on it's way out. The same thing that happens with a 1911 and some other pistols. About the only cure for it is to have the ejection port lowered. Another thing to keep in mind is that when the brass is hitting like that you have a stovepipe jam waiting to happen. If this is just a recreational/target pistol then it could be annoying but not a real problem. If you carry it for defense then it might me something you need to consider. George

James K · December 29, 2000, 03:48 PM

Actually, it is an ejector problem. The angle of the ejector is wrong, throwing the case too low. Fixing this sometimes requires some experimentation, but the ejector needs to be changed to strike the base of the cartridge farther down.

Jim

Alex Johnson · December 30, 2000, 06:23 PM

Thanks for the response. I have given some thought to reworking this Llama since I kind of like the pistol and can see some possibilities with it. I don't feel comfortable messing with the extractor, but I probably will take some metal off the bottom of the ejector port since I have seen this done on several 1911's. I can't really take any off the back end of the port like I have also seen since their is little metal to work with due to the location of the extractor. If this doesn't solve the problem I will probably send the thing off to have the changes to the extractor made. Anyway it's not a really critical situation since the gun still functions fine (actually I have had only one stovepipe in better than 200 rounds so it is quite reliable) and I have other pistols that I use for carry. If you guys haven't played with one of these Llamas I can recommend them, they are a bit crude in some respects but there's a lot that can be done with them and they look like they would be fun to do some work on. Once again thanks for the info and have a Happy New Year.

James K · December 30, 2000, 07:52 PM

Hi, Alex,

Before you spend a lot of money on that pistol, be advised that Llamas are not considered top quality pistols. They usually work OK for casual shooting, but they tend to be soft and not up to long term use. Extensive use of hand fitting means that parts interchangeability, even with Llama parts, is problematical. Most of the gunsmiths who modify 1911 type pistols for target or top-of-line "defense" guns will not work on Llamas for those reasons.

That is one reason I suggested the cheap approach of tuning the ejector (I did not say extractor) rather than changing the ejection port.

Jim

Alex Johnson · January 1, 2001, 12:04 PM

Hi Jim, thanks for the info. As I said before I'm not all that good with the workings of auto pistols. When I mention extractor I am talking about the part that physically grips the rim of the case and pulls it out of the chamber. I don't know if the correct term for this is ejector or what. I don't feel comfortable enough with the mechanisim to work on this part any way. I do a lot of custom gunwork, but a majority of it is leaning towards muzzleloaders and black powder revolvers. I feel quite capable of reworking the Llama as far as dehorning it and refinishing it, even to the point of modifying the ejector port slightly to see if it improves the brass problem. As far as the action goes, It is quite smooth and the gun is reliable. I like to find things out for myself as far as durability goes so I have ordered a case of 1050 .380 acps to run through this gun and see what happens. The steel on it is soft, I don't think it would be time or cost effective to try and correct this problem, I don't even know what alloy they have used so it would be a guessing game at best to do anything at all. On the other hand, I have a Kimber which is machined out of aluminum and even though some of the newer alloys of aluminum, such as Fortal, are capable of being surface hardened into the low 60's I don't think much of their durability either, they certainly aren't any better than the steel frame on the Llama. I guess what it comes down to in the end is how much work people are willing to do, or pay for on a gun. In the case of the Llama, I figure I can do most of the work myself and my time isn't costing me anything, I agree if I was going to send the gun off and have the work done I would probably have second thoughts about sending a pistol like the Llama and investing too much money in it. Many of the things I do are done just to see what happens. I won't mess around with anything on the pistol that could harm the safety of the piece and in the end I think it will probably turn out to be a nice looking, and reliable piece. If I eventually shoot it so much that it does become worn out, their only $250, I can buy a new one. Once again thanks for your advice, I value it and will definitely take it all into consideration. Have a Happy New Year.

Alex Johnson
NRA, Life Member

James K · January 2, 2001, 12:27 AM

Hi, Alex,

You are correct in that the EXTRACTOR is what pulls the empty case (or an unfired round) from the chamber. The EJECTOR is the part that sticks up out of the frame on the other (left) side and is hit by the base of the case, kicking the case out through the ejection port. If the point at which the case hits the EJECTOR is too high or too low on the case, the case will come out at the wrong angle and strike the edge of the ejection port.

But the EXTRACTOR must also grip the case tightly enough that the case will pivot around it and be ejected. If the extractor does not grip the case, the case can fall down when it is withdrawn from the chamber and fail to eject.

You can easily examine this by removing the recoil spring (makes it easier to work the slide) and watching what happens when an empty case is pulled out of the chamber and ejected.

HTH

Jim

December 28, 2000, 02:57 PM	#1
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	I just bought a Llama Micro Max .380 from a local gunshop. The price was right and it was brand new. I rather like this little pistol, I've put over a hundred rounds through it since I bought it and it has smoothed up nicely and seems to be 100% reliable with the handloads I've fed it. It does have one annoying little problem. The mouth of the cases all seem to be dented when they come out of the pistol. It's not a major problem and the dents don't prevent me from reloading the brass (though I'm sure they won't last as long). I was wondering if it's an extractor problem that's causing this. I do lots of gun work, but have limited experience with auto pistols and their workings. Any ideas would be appreciated.

December 29, 2000, 08:34 AM	#2
George Stringer Staff Alumnus Join Date: October 12, 1998 Location: Earlington KY Posts: 2,299	Alex, this is fairly common. What's happening is the brass is hitting the bottom of the ejection port on it's way out. The same thing that happens with a 1911 and some other pistols. About the only cure for it is to have the ejection port lowered. Another thing to keep in mind is that when the brass is hitting like that you have a stovepipe jam waiting to happen. If this is just a recreational/target pistol then it could be annoying but not a real problem. If you carry it for defense then it might me something you need to consider. George

December 29, 2000, 03:48 PM	#3
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Actually, it is an ejector problem. The angle of the ejector is wrong, throwing the case too low. Fixing this sometimes requires some experimentation, but the ejector needs to be changed to strike the base of the cartridge farther down. Jim

December 30, 2000, 06:23 PM	#4
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	Thanks for the response. I have given some thought to reworking this Llama since I kind of like the pistol and can see some possibilities with it. I don't feel comfortable messing with the extractor, but I probably will take some metal off the bottom of the ejector port since I have seen this done on several 1911's. I can't really take any off the back end of the port like I have also seen since their is little metal to work with due to the location of the extractor. If this doesn't solve the problem I will probably send the thing off to have the changes to the extractor made. Anyway it's not a really critical situation since the gun still functions fine (actually I have had only one stovepipe in better than 200 rounds so it is quite reliable) and I have other pistols that I use for carry. If you guys haven't played with one of these Llamas I can recommend them, they are a bit crude in some respects but there's a lot that can be done with them and they look like they would be fun to do some work on. Once again thanks for the info and have a Happy New Year.

December 30, 2000, 07:52 PM	#5
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Alex, Before you spend a lot of money on that pistol, be advised that Llamas are not considered top quality pistols. They usually work OK for casual shooting, but they tend to be soft and not up to long term use. Extensive use of hand fitting means that parts interchangeability, even with Llama parts, is problematical. Most of the gunsmiths who modify 1911 type pistols for target or top-of-line "defense" guns will not work on Llamas for those reasons. That is one reason I suggested the cheap approach of tuning the ejector (I did not say extractor) rather than changing the ejection port. Jim

January 1, 2001, 12:04 PM	#6
Alex Johnson Senior Member Join Date: February 16, 2000 Location: Grand Forks, ND Posts: 812	Hi Jim, thanks for the info. As I said before I'm not all that good with the workings of auto pistols. When I mention extractor I am talking about the part that physically grips the rim of the case and pulls it out of the chamber. I don't know if the correct term for this is ejector or what. I don't feel comfortable enough with the mechanisim to work on this part any way. I do a lot of custom gunwork, but a majority of it is leaning towards muzzleloaders and black powder revolvers. I feel quite capable of reworking the Llama as far as dehorning it and refinishing it, even to the point of modifying the ejector port slightly to see if it improves the brass problem. As far as the action goes, It is quite smooth and the gun is reliable. I like to find things out for myself as far as durability goes so I have ordered a case of 1050 .380 acps to run through this gun and see what happens. The steel on it is soft, I don't think it would be time or cost effective to try and correct this problem, I don't even know what alloy they have used so it would be a guessing game at best to do anything at all. On the other hand, I have a Kimber which is machined out of aluminum and even though some of the newer alloys of aluminum, such as Fortal, are capable of being surface hardened into the low 60's I don't think much of their durability either, they certainly aren't any better than the steel frame on the Llama. I guess what it comes down to in the end is how much work people are willing to do, or pay for on a gun. In the case of the Llama, I figure I can do most of the work myself and my time isn't costing me anything, I agree if I was going to send the gun off and have the work done I would probably have second thoughts about sending a pistol like the Llama and investing too much money in it. Many of the things I do are done just to see what happens. I won't mess around with anything on the pistol that could harm the safety of the piece and in the end I think it will probably turn out to be a nice looking, and reliable piece. If I eventually shoot it so much that it does become worn out, their only $250, I can buy a new one. Once again thanks for your advice, I value it and will definitely take it all into consideration. Have a Happy New Year. Alex Johnson NRA, Life Member

January 2, 2001, 12:27 AM	#7
James K Member In Memoriam Join Date: March 17, 1999 Posts: 24,383	Hi, Alex, You are correct in that the EXTRACTOR is what pulls the empty case (or an unfired round) from the chamber. The EJECTOR is the part that sticks up out of the frame on the other (left) side and is hit by the base of the case, kicking the case out through the ejection port. If the point at which the case hits the EJECTOR is too high or too low on the case, the case will come out at the wrong angle and strike the edge of the ejection port. But the EXTRACTOR must also grip the case tightly enough that the case will pivot around it and be ejected. If the extractor does not grip the case, the case can fall down when it is withdrawn from the chamber and fail to eject. You can easily examine this by removing the recoil spring (makes it easier to work the slide) and watching what happens when an empty case is pulled out of the chamber and ejected. HTH Jim