1858 Pietta with Kirst Konverter Question

Schofield · July 31, 2007, 11:23 PM

This looks like the place to learn. This is my first post, but I have really enjoyed reading many of the threads and thought I would jump right in with a newbie question. I know that many of you might take this for granted and it has probably been beat to death, but I’m just of the nature that I really like to check something out with those that have experience before I try it. Anyway, here it is:

I recently bought a .44 cal Pietta 1858 Remington from Cabela’s and ordered a .45 LC Kirst Konverter from VTI. They went together easily and appear to work very well mechanically. No problems at all that I can tell. I also got a box of .45 Schofield Ultramax 230 gr smokeless ammunition (Cowboy Loads).

I have read a lot about such configurations and evidently hundreds, if not thousands, of shooters do this all the time. I have not been able to bring myself to test fire it with this set-up because I keep seeing all these warnings about “black powder only” in regard to the Pietta itself. I feel confident that the Kirst Konverter is safe, but is the frame and breech of the Pietta safe for this or not? Of course, you can’t get anything other than a “black powder only” answer from Pietta. But, even the Ultramax Ammo box warns that the ammo is only for use in firearms that are designed and intended for smokeless powder ammunition. Of course, the Kirst Konverter is but the Pietta frame isn’t. I’m kind of going in a circle with this and would appreciate any experience you would share. I really like the set-up, but certainly want to feel safe using it. Thanks

mykeal · August 1, 2007, 07:05 AM

Look at it this way: the cylinder is subject to the initial explosive charge and is designed to contain the pressure. The frame is subject to cylinder motion and the impact load that motion causes, and it is designed to withstand that impact.

Thus the issue about the frame being strong enough boils down to how much impact load is caused by the cylinder reacting to the contained pressure load and the bullet leaving the chamber. This assumes the cylinder itself acts as designed and does not fracture - a failed cylinder results in much different frame loading.

Cowboy load ammunition (and this is a very important point) is designed to produce significantly lower pressure than regular ammunition. The reduced pressure is intended to produce a reactive load on the cylinder that does not exceed that of the design standard for a percussion cylinder, thus resulting in frame impact loads that are within the design limits of the frame.

This is the purpose of cowboy loads. It would not be difficult (but it would be expensive) to design and build a cylinder for a percussion gun that could withstand a full standard cartridge ammunition charge. However, this would result in frame loads beyond their design capability; at some point the combination would be unusually dangerous, even deadly, hence cowboy loads were developed.

Your part in this is to ensure, absolutely, beyond any possibility of error, every time, that you use only cowboy loads in a conversion cylinder. There are many anecdotes about failure to do so, and they are not pretty.

News Shooter · August 1, 2007, 12:16 PM

I'm not an expert, but in doing research I read that you should be OK with cowboy loads as long as it isn't a brass receiver. In other words if your receiver is steel there is no problem. That's what I read from the various manufacturers anyway

38splfan · August 1, 2007, 12:41 PM

I definitely agree with the above. I own two Remington revolvers and shoot them regularly. Even with heavy (32-35 gr.) BP loads, they are safe and function well.

BTW, for those curious, 35 grains is the 50 yard load for my NMA "Buffalo" revolver with the 10-inch barrel. Very accurate and quite fun to shoot. I know the load is on the high side, but, like +P modern ammo, it's not used often and was thoroughly researched for safety first.

Pietta's quality has gone up A LOT in the last decade or so and they are safe, reliable guns. Maybe not the fit and finish of Uberti, but I'd really rate the functionality pretty close.

For some great info on the Reminton NMA and especially cartridge conversions, check out the Society of Remington Revolver Shooters at
www.scorrs.org

Enjoy your Remmy, shoot the cowboy loads, and maybe get into your own black powder cartridge reloading. Can't beat 'em.

m-g willy · August 1, 2007, 02:17 PM

DONT EVEN THINK OF TOUCHING OFF THAT BOMB!!!

You would be risking life and limb for yourself and anyone close to you!
So no other innocents will be tempted to shoot it and end up sueing you for everything you own, my advice to you is to --send me that bomb they call a cylinder for proper disposal.

Naw, just kidding.
Them cylinders are plenty safe for all cowboy 45 colt loads.
Even standard 45 Colt loads are safe with them.
The only loads to stay away from are the high power hunting loads that approach 44mag. vel.

Willy

Old Dragoon · August 1, 2007, 06:36 PM

I have shot all of the top three Italian MFG. pistols Pietta, Uberti and Euroarms ('58 Remy's) with R & D or Kirst Conversion cylinders with cowboy loads and some Trail Boss Loads that are stiff, but not +P in any means in 45LC and 44 Rem/Colt C.F. with NO ill effects to pistolas or my ownself.

I'm on SCORRS forum a lot come on over, jump right on in ....the water's fine and there are some great guys there as well as here and here" http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12

and here: http://www.voy.com/60048/
Lots of experience and good help on any of these forums.
Welcome aboard.

Old Dragoon · August 1, 2007, 06:37 PM

I have shot all of the top three Italian MFG. pistols('58 Remy's with R & D or Kirst Conversion cylinders with cowboy loads and some Trail Boss Loads that are stiff, but not +P in any means in 45LC and 44 Rem/Colt C.F. with NO ill effects to pistolas or my ownself.

I'm on SCORRS forum a lot come on over, jump right on in ....the water's fine and there are some great guys there as well as here and here" http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12 and here: http://www.voy.com/60048/
Lots of experience and good help on any of these forums.
Welcome aboard.

Schofield · August 1, 2007, 08:45 PM

Thank you all for your help. The “answers from experience” are just what I was looking for and ranged from good logical reasoning explanations to experienced shooters’ encouragement. I’m going to try the ‘58 out this weekend and thanks again everyone. Thanks for the other forum links also. I have read until I have a headache. Any more comments will be appreciated as well and thanks again.

July 31, 2007, 11:23 PM	#1
Schofield Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 19	1858 Pietta with Kirst Konverter Question This looks like the place to learn. This is my first post, but I have really enjoyed reading many of the threads and thought I would jump right in with a newbie question. I know that many of you might take this for granted and it has probably been beat to death, but I’m just of the nature that I really like to check something out with those that have experience before I try it. Anyway, here it is: I recently bought a .44 cal Pietta 1858 Remington from Cabela’s and ordered a .45 LC Kirst Konverter from VTI. They went together easily and appear to work very well mechanically. No problems at all that I can tell. I also got a box of .45 Schofield Ultramax 230 gr smokeless ammunition (Cowboy Loads). I have read a lot about such configurations and evidently hundreds, if not thousands, of shooters do this all the time. I have not been able to bring myself to test fire it with this set-up because I keep seeing all these warnings about “black powder only” in regard to the Pietta itself. I feel confident that the Kirst Konverter is safe, but is the frame and breech of the Pietta safe for this or not? Of course, you can’t get anything other than a “black powder only” answer from Pietta. But, even the Ultramax Ammo box warns that the ammo is only for use in firearms that are designed and intended for smokeless powder ammunition. Of course, the Kirst Konverter is but the Pietta frame isn’t. I’m kind of going in a circle with this and would appreciate any experience you would share. I really like the set-up, but certainly want to feel safe using it. Thanks

August 1, 2007, 12:16 PM	#3
News Shooter Senior Member Join Date: May 29, 2005 Posts: 332	I was recently looking into the exact same situation I'm not an expert, but in doing research I read that you should be OK with cowboy loads as long as it isn't a brass receiver. In other words if your receiver is steel there is no problem. That's what I read from the various manufacturers anyway

August 1, 2007, 12:41 PM	#4
38splfan Senior Member Join Date: November 19, 2004 Location: Ft. Lewis/Tacoma, WA. Posts: 1,034	I concur. I definitely agree with the above. I own two Remington revolvers and shoot them regularly. Even with heavy (32-35 gr.) BP loads, they are safe and function well. BTW, for those curious, 35 grains is the 50 yard load for my NMA "Buffalo" revolver with the 10-inch barrel. Very accurate and quite fun to shoot. I know the load is on the high side, but, like +P modern ammo, it's not used often and was thoroughly researched for safety first. Pietta's quality has gone up A LOT in the last decade or so and they are safe, reliable guns. Maybe not the fit and finish of Uberti, but I'd really rate the functionality pretty close. For some great info on the Reminton NMA and especially cartridge conversions, check out the Society of Remington Revolver Shooters at www.scorrs.org Enjoy your Remmy, shoot the cowboy loads, and maybe get into your own black powder cartridge reloading. Can't beat 'em. __________________ "I won't be wronged, I won't be insulted, and I won't be laid a hand on. I don't do these things to others and I expect the same from them." - John Wayne

August 1, 2007, 07:05 AM	#2
mykeal Senior Member Join Date: October 8, 2006 Location: Northern Michigan Posts: 2,772	Look at it this way: the cylinder is subject to the initial explosive charge and is designed to contain the pressure. The frame is subject to cylinder motion and the impact load that motion causes, and it is designed to withstand that impact. Thus the issue about the frame being strong enough boils down to how much impact load is caused by the cylinder reacting to the contained pressure load and the bullet leaving the chamber. This assumes the cylinder itself acts as designed and does not fracture - a failed cylinder results in much different frame loading. Cowboy load ammunition (and this is a very important point) is designed to produce significantly lower pressure than regular ammunition. The reduced pressure is intended to produce a reactive load on the cylinder that does not exceed that of the design standard for a percussion cylinder, thus resulting in frame impact loads that are within the design limits of the frame. This is the purpose of cowboy loads. It would not be difficult (but it would be expensive) to design and build a cylinder for a percussion gun that could withstand a full standard cartridge ammunition charge. However, this would result in frame loads beyond their design capability; at some point the combination would be unusually dangerous, even deadly, hence cowboy loads were developed. Your part in this is to ensure, absolutely, beyond any possibility of error, every time, that you use only cowboy loads in a conversion cylinder. There are many anecdotes about failure to do so, and they are not pretty.

August 1, 2007, 02:17 PM	#5
m-g willy Member Join Date: February 6, 2005 Posts: 36	DONT EVEN THINK OF TOUCHING OFF THAT BOMB!!! You would be risking life and limb for yourself and anyone close to you! So no other innocents will be tempted to shoot it and end up sueing you for everything you own, my advice to you is to --send me that bomb they call a cylinder for proper disposal. Naw, just kidding. Them cylinders are plenty safe for all cowboy 45 colt loads. Even standard 45 Colt loads are safe with them. The only loads to stay away from are the high power hunting loads that approach 44mag. vel. Willy

August 1, 2007, 06:36 PM	#6
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	I have shot all of the top three Italian MFG. pistols Pietta, Uberti and Euroarms ('58 Remy's) with R & D or Kirst Conversion cylinders with cowboy loads and some Trail Boss Loads that are stiff, but not +P in any means in 45LC and 44 Rem/Colt C.F. with NO ill effects to pistolas or my ownself. I'm on SCORRS forum a lot come on over, jump right on in ....the water's fine and there are some great guys there as well as here and here" http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12 and here: http://www.voy.com/60048/ Lots of experience and good help on any of these forums. Welcome aboard.

August 1, 2007, 06:37 PM	#7
Old Dragoon Senior Member Join Date: October 31, 2005 Location: The Republic of Californi Posts: 581	I have shot all of the top three Italian MFG. pistols('58 Remy's with R & D or Kirst Conversion cylinders with cowboy loads and some Trail Boss Loads that are stiff, but not +P in any means in 45LC and 44 Rem/Colt C.F. with NO ill effects to pistolas or my ownself. I'm on SCORRS forum a lot come on over, jump right on in ....the water's fine and there are some great guys there as well as here and here" http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=12 and here: http://www.voy.com/60048/ Lots of experience and good help on any of these forums. Welcome aboard.

August 1, 2007, 08:45 PM	#8
Schofield Member Join Date: July 31, 2007 Posts: 19	Thank you all for your help. The “answers from experience” are just what I was looking for and ranged from good logical reasoning explanations to experienced shooters’ encouragement. I’m going to try the ‘58 out this weekend and thanks again everyone. Thanks for the other forum links also. I have read until I have a headache. Any more comments will be appreciated as well and thanks again.