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Old January 25, 2021, 08:58 PM   #151
TunnelRat
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Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
I cannot understand why they had a great thing going with DA/SA 30 years ago and have to change to this? Is that a "macho" problem? DA/SA is so much safer no matter how you cut it. How is it better now?

There are still DA/SA options, as has been pointed out to you. I would suggest purchasing one of those, if you end up purchasing a firearm.


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Old January 25, 2021, 09:02 PM   #152
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Not really sure, but the Beretta 92 and military M9 9mm handguns are still so equipped. My brother has a 92 and it has an excellent trigger out of the box. Just not a polymer frame. The replacement for the M9 is a polymer M17 or M18 which are based on the sig sauer P320..
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:05 PM   #153
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Thinking about a Glock19

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Originally Posted by ciwsguy View Post
Not really sure, but the Beretta 92 and military M9 9mm handguns are still so equipped. My brother has a 92 and it has an excellent trigger out of the box.

It’s worth noting that the M9 has been replaced by the M17, a striker fired pistol with a striker that is even more cocked than a Glock (fully tensioned IIRC). The M17 does have a manual safety, however. The civilian version of that pistol, the P320, is sold with or without a safety and most of the sales are for the model without.

Edit: and damn you already edited it


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Old January 25, 2021, 09:07 PM   #154
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Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
I never heard of Kahr, I looked a little on their website, are they just like Glock that is half cocked?
I would call it 1/3 cocked but yes

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I don't see any trigger safety like Glock or S&W type.
All of the mechanical safeties are internal
The manual safety is the long pull, just like a revolver

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Is Glock consider half cocked all the time even after firing the first shot?
Working the slide resets the striker whether manually cycled or when firing a shot

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That the second round pull is still having to pull the firing pin back to full cock before release. It never have true SA
Correct
Almost all modern striker fired pistols are double action only
(an exception would be the HK PSP/P series for example)

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Thanks, this is all new to me. Maybe I am rushing too much to go buy one!!!
Rental ranges are all over the place today
I would be surprised if you didn't have a few nearby
Most of the ones Ive seen will charge a small rental fee, then let you try out whatever they have
Typically they seem to all make you use their ammunition so finding your own shouldn't be an issue while renting
It will cost you to rent but its better than buying and finding out you dont like it or shoot something better

Quick story...
A neighbor of mine in town was buying their first pistol and asked my wife and I to give them some training. We went to a local outdoor range and part way through the afternoon I had someone a few lanes down come over and ask me for some help, a middle aged couple had bought a pair of G19's and were really struggling as they had never shot before.

While my wife continued to work with our neighbor while I watched the couple shoot a few magazines. They told me they had bought the pistols because they knew the word Glock from movies and TV, so thats what they bought. After a few tips and demos I had them shooting much MUCH better, from barely being on 24x36 target paper to getting about half on 8.5x11 paper.

I walked down to our lane and grabbed one of my L9-A1's. Within a few minutes I had them both keeping all shots on the 8.5x11 and starting to get actual groups. They were shocked by how much better the Steyr shot, the much lighter felt recoil, and better sights. Within two weeks the bought Steyrs and sold the Glocks. Had they had a chance to try multiple things beforehand, they may have made an entirely different choice and saved themselves some headaches.
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:41 PM   #155
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
There are still DA/SA options, as has been pointed out to you. I would suggest purchasing one of those, if you end up purchasing a firearm.


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When I said that, I meant most are like Glock today, choice of DA/SA is very limited, only the full sized one that I already have a good one already and is all tested out.

Honestly, I think the Glock 26 is really the size I want to fill the gap between my big S&W659 and the Walther PPKS ( Both are DA/SA). Something in case of getting caught in those riot, that the little Walter might be a little too weak knee and the 659 is just too big and heavy to carry out. I just want option and that's the gap I want to fill. I was ready to make appointment to buy the 26 until I realized about the trigger.

I yet to find a DA/SA that fits what I am looking for.
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:42 PM   #156
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The HK P2000 is roughly the size of a Glock 19. The HK P2000sk is roughly the size of a Glock 26.
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Know the status of your weapon
Keep your muzzle oriented so that no one will be hurt if the firearm discharges
Keep your finger off the trigger until you have an adequate sight picture
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:51 PM   #157
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Thanks TunnelRat. I'll look into the HK, it's a little expensive, wonder how much mark up they want.

I am not ruling out the 26, just a little frustrated that it's so close, price is right.

I am surprised there are so many negative comments on the trigger of the S&W M&P Shield.
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Old January 25, 2021, 09:53 PM   #158
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So what I would say is the triggers on the S&W series of pistols have gotten better with time. I'm not sure if the Shield 2.0 is on your roster, but it does have what to me is a noticeably better trigger. It's not amazing, but I don't think it would hinder good shooting. Even on the original S&W Shield there are aftermarket kits (if you were so inclined) as well as installation videos to go with them that can improve the trigger. Given the work you've described performing on your own firearms, the installations should be very easy by comparison.
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Old January 25, 2021, 10:27 PM   #159
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Alan, regarding what you perceive to be a lack of a safety function, keep in mind if you don't press the trigger the gun won't go bang.

But of course if that is a problem for you, please find yourself a firearm with as many safety features as you think you might need!

Quote:
Something in case of getting caught in those riot
So is your rekindled interest in firearms due to your concern of getting caught in a riot situation? If so, I suggest you find your zen place and take a few deep breaths. Things aren't yet that bad, brother.
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Old January 25, 2021, 10:53 PM   #160
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
That’s not exactly true. When you press the trigger on a Glock the striker is moved further rearward. Pressing the trigger does finish some of the cocking of the firearm, so I wouldn’t consider it cocked and unlocked. We’ve had debate in the past about whether a Glock striker at rest has enough energy to detonate a primer, with mixed opinions. There are striker fired pistols that are fully cocked at rest. There are also DA/SA and DAO striker fired pistols where all of the cocking of the striker is done when pressing the trigger.


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You don't happen to know where that thread is? Something telling me I should decide soon whether to get the 26 or not. I still incline to do that. I have to admit I have been thinking about a Glock of decades, I can tell I am very reluctant to walk away from it, particularly at $650.

I have the S&W 659 AND quite a few of their revolvers, I am not exactly dying to get another S&W. Glock is proven to have the longivity and ruggedness and reliability. If any reliability issue pops up, I am sure I'll find a way to fix it. I fixed all 3 of mine to very reliable, I don't see any reason I cannot do that if needed. Hopefully don't have to.
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Old January 25, 2021, 10:55 PM   #161
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I don’t remember the exact thread. But if you really want to get into the weeds, I can accommodate. Give me a sec.


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Old January 25, 2021, 10:57 PM   #162
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Thinking about a Glock19

I wrote this an hour ago, thought it was too long and put it aside. Well here we go. Read or don't read as you see it. Also, this is me doing the best I can without going full blown term paper. I believe the information below to be overall correct and get the main points across.

I think with regards to Alan a little clarification might help. Someone used to hammer fired pistols of 30 years ago when they see the term double action only (DAO) and think of a revolver or similar are likely imagining something that doesn't work the same as the striker fired pistols that are marketed and sold as DAO today.

A typically hammer fired DAO means that the trigger pull is accomplishing two actions. It's both cocking and releasing the hammer. The trigger pulls are generally long and kind of heavy. If the hammer falls on a round that is a dud the round will not go off, but another press of the trigger will cause the hammer to fall again (for a revolver the cylinder would rotate, for a hammer fired DAO semiautomatic pistol the hammer falls on the same round).

That's not how most of the striker fired pistols that are marketed as DAO function. Besides the fact that they have a striker, the strikers are typically cocked to some extent (the P99 mentioned above being a good example of an exception). The degree to which the strikers are cocked varies by manufacturer, but typically speaking the strikers are partially cocked (unlike a revolver)and there usually is no manual safety (there are exceptions, such as the Army's M17 with safety).

Now this isn't exactly the same as a 1911 or other single-action-only pistol. Again the trigger press is partially finishing the cocking of the striker. The trigger pulls on these pistols are generally a bit heavier, travel farther, and are not as crisp as a nice 1911 trigger.

A Glock or other DAO pistol of the same type achieves some cocking of the striker per the rearward cycling of the slide, as TBM pointed out. What this does mean is unlike most hammer fired DAO pistol sor a revolver, if the striker falls and the round does not go off, the trigger cannot be pressed again. Without the slide having cycled the striker hasn't been pretensioned. This means in the event of a dud round (failure to fire) the user has to manually cycle the slide, which ejects the dud round and feeds a new round into the chamber.

As I mentioned above some pistols of this type have the striker cocked to differing degrees. Some, such as the VP9, PPQ, P320, etc, have a striker that is mostly if not completely cocked at rest. Frankly this level of tension in the striker at rest isn't always obvious to the user. Manufacturers often don't specify the percentage to which the striker is cocked and as the end user this difference isn't always readily apparent to the user. Again, the triggers are roughly the same weight, though the lengths of travel and crispness of the break will differ. Generally speaking the pistols with strikers that are mostly cocked have better triggers.

So is all of this unsafe? It might seem like it compared to a DA/SA pistol. A few things to keep in mind. The pistols in question have internal safeties. These generally include a means to prevent the striker from going forward unless the trigger is being pulled (striker block) and a means to prevent the trigger being pressed to the rear from momentum if the pistol was dropped (this generally manifests in a tab on the face or the trigger or an articulated trigger). In terms of drop safety these pistols are generally fine.

Now will these firearms go off if you press the trigger? Yes. So will a DA/SA pistol such as a SIG P226. Not all DA/SA pistols incorporate a manual safety like your S&W 659 or Walther PPK. A number of them simply use the heavy weight of the first trigger pull as a form of safety. So then the question becomes is the 5.5 - 6 lb. trigger of a Glock (or similar) and the travel required to get that trigger to cock the striker fully and release it safe enough. For many people it seems to be. These pistols have come to dominate law enforcement sales for decades now and in the litigious times we live in if these pistols were proven to be very dangerous their use would have ceased by now. There are of course examples of negligence and they can be found in stories online.

I carried DA/SA SIGs and HKs for many years. I now carry a Glock. Now does a DA/SA pistol require more force on the part of the shooter to get the firearm to discharge for that first shot? Yes. I will say that I have used DA/SA pistols converted to use UTM cartridges for force on force training scenarios. In those scenarios with my adrenaline going the weight of that first trigger pull didn't even register to me. If I had my finger on that trigger and started pressing it there was no way it was going to stop me unless it was so heavy that I was physically incapable of moving the trigger. The real important part of firearm safety, DA/SA or not, is to keep your finger off that trigger if you don't intend to fire. Now of course, people make mistakes and might put that finger on the trigger without meaning to. But the triggers on the pistols we're talking about aren't so light or short in travel as for just placing a finger on the trigger to result in the firearm discharging (you should hopefully be able to see this for yourself in stores if the clerks let you dry fire the pistol).

People switching to Glocks and other pistols really isn't about being "macho". Generally speaking that first trigger press on a Glock is easier than a DA first trigger. That first shot can be pretty important, and if you're convinced the weight and length of travel of a Glock or similar are such that you won't discharge it negligently, the potentially greater accuracy of an easier first shot seems appealing. I'd also note, that a Glock trigger is generally heavier and longer than the SA on most DA/SA pistols. So you have that same level of safety for each shot. Lastly, it's generally easier to maintain proficiency on something that only has one trigger pull than on something that has two. Frankly I can shoot less with my Glocks and still maintain the same proficiency as I did with my DA/SA pistols.

What is the point of me saying all of the above? I'm trying to give you an idea on the differences. The reason I am doing this is we're at post 150 and you're waffling between two pretty different manuals of arms, one of which haven't used before. That's not unusual for someone in your position, but when you don't know which manual of arms you want it makes picking a pistol pretty darn hard. Some people will read what I wrote above and absent any technical inaccuracies on my part they'll decide they still want the added safety of a DA first pull. That's fine. If you have a manual of arms you're comfortable with, and it sounds like you do, I think there's some validity to staying with that. If you are considering switching, maybe the above will give you some insight into what that will be like and why you might want to.


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Old January 25, 2021, 11:13 PM   #163
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Thanks so much TunnelRat for taking the time to write this. I read the whole thing. I am inclined to make the appointment to buy the Glock. It might sounds like I am making a big deal, but it's not the end of the world if I buy it and don't like it. After all, there's only one way to find out.

A lot of people finding it's important to like the feel of the gun and all, I found it's all about getting used to it. I can shoot from the big Colt Trooper to the little Freedom Arm .22Mag just as easy ( well of cause you don't expect they are same accuracy). Just a matter finding the way to hold it and practice.

Worst come to worst is NOT loading the chamber, it's still not the end of the world.
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Old January 26, 2021, 04:05 AM   #164
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One question that slipped me, why we have shortage on stuffs for reloading? No first time buyers will touch reloading. Also, I would think when comes to self defense, you always buy factory rounds instead of trusting reloads.

What is shortage in reloading? primers? bullet heads, explosives or what? Excuse me on the names, never got into reloading in my life.
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Old January 26, 2021, 04:48 AM   #165
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No pics in this long thread ?

Here’s the gen 3 I bought just a few months ago







I’ve had a gen 3 G17 for 12 years which has served me well, without a single glitch. I expect this 19 to be just as reliable





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Old January 26, 2021, 05:58 AM   #166
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Alan0354 View Post
One question that slipped me, why we have shortage on stuffs for reloading? No first time buyers will touch reloading. Also, I would think when comes to self defense, you always buy factory rounds instead of trusting reloads.

What is shortage in reloading? primers? bullet heads, explosives or what? Excuse me on the names, never got into reloading in my life.

When ammunition shortages come about (and there was one after the Newtown shooting as well, though not as dramatic as this one) the reloading components that might be offered for sale are instead kept to fill orders for ammunition. Federal sells primers. When Federal has a backlog of $1 billion worth of ammunition orders they put less emphasis on making primers available rather than filling those orders.

While you’re right that brand new shooters generally won’t reload, you also have shooters that would normally buy factory ammunition that have been shooting for some time. When shortages happen those shooters might decide to pick up reloading. Whereas before the cost difference wasn’t worth it to them either the rising prices or lack of supply encourages them to do this.


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Old January 26, 2021, 03:00 PM   #167
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Originally Posted by TunnelRat View Post
When ammunition shortages come about (and there was one after the Newtown shooting as well, though not as dramatic as this one) the reloading components that might be offered for sale are instead kept to fill orders for ammunition. Federal sells primers. When Federal has a backlog of $1 billion worth of ammunition orders they put less emphasis on making primers available rather than filling those orders.

While you’re right that brand new shooters generally won’t reload, you also have shooters that would normally buy factory ammunition that have been shooting for some time. When shortages happen those shooters might decide to pick up reloading. Whereas before the cost difference wasn’t worth it to them either the rising prices or lack of supply encourages them to do this.


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Make sense.

Ha ha, now I am sensitive, you are describing me!!!
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Old January 26, 2021, 03:52 PM   #168
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Originally Posted by Classic12 View Post
No pics in this long thread ?

Here’s the gen 3 I bought just a few months ago



I’ve had a gen 3 G17 for 12 years which has served me well, without a single glitch. I expect this 19 to be just as reliable
This is pretty. I wish I can get one like this. The ones I can buy are all just black.
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Old January 26, 2021, 04:13 PM   #169
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DA/SA is so much safer, then after the first shot, it is true single action which must be so much more accurate than the half A$$ single action of today.
No it is not any safer. You keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot with any gun.

The appeal of Glocks and pretty much every other striker fired gun is the trigger pull is always the same. There is no change from long heavy double action to light single action. It is consistent.
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Old January 26, 2021, 05:00 PM   #170
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DA/SA is so much safer, then after the first shot, it is true single action which must be so much more accurate than the half A$$ single action of today.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Willie Lowman View Post
No it is not any safer. You keep your finger off the trigger till you are ready to shoot with any gun.

The appeal of Glocks and pretty much every other striker fired gun is the trigger pull is always the same. There is no change from long heavy double action to light single action. It is consistent.
Agreed

Me personally, I can't stand DA/SA autos
That is one of the reasons Ive converted all of my "shooter" Beretta 92's to double action only
I love it's pull with the G spring... fantastic
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Old January 26, 2021, 06:02 PM   #171
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Well, I made the appointment to go buy the 26. Get it before they all got banned.

Right now, I am holding my like S&W36 snuby, I can tell you all the talk about the Glock having a more slanted butt are more nitpicking than anything. The butt of the snub nose is even more slanted than the Glock!!! I have to take out the bigger revolvers to check, but that's very standard for revolvers. It seems to be more the older generation semi auto have straight butt and people get used to it.

I notice I have to pay attention to tip the snuby down to aim right.

Look at how slanted is the butt:

https://thefiringline.com/forums/att...1&d=1611702832
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File Type: jpg snuby.jpg (138.5 KB, 21 views)

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Old January 27, 2021, 05:39 AM   #172
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I am just thinking about the kaboom, I looked at quite a few pictures. Is it most likely happened with reloads? I saw pictures quite a few blew up at 6o'clock where the feed ramp is, there is less support there regardless of gun brands. Could it be people reload the same shell over and over and the brass just got stressed out and blow?

I read they said you can only reload a shell about 20 times and it's time to dump it away, but do people observe that? Particular those days when I bought reloads from the store, they took back the empty shell to reload. They never asked or know how many times the shell has been reloaded. There's no way they can know. For private people reloading also, how are you going to keep tract of how many times each shell is reloaded? All it takes is one fell through the cracks and you can get metal fatigue. Just thinking out loud.
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Old January 27, 2021, 07:19 AM   #173
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Don't overthink it. (Says I, Charter Member of Overthinkers Anonymous....) I'm just a net-surfing pencil-pusher, but my impression of the kaboom issue is that it primarily manifested itself in early .40 cal. Glocks that didn't have proper chamber support. I don't think it was a big problem in 9mm Glocks. I'm not saying 9mm kabooms haven't happened, but I don't think they're very common.

I'm not anything close to being an expert, so if someone out there knows better, please correct me.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:03 AM   #174
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OP, it sounds like you are locked in a classic "paralysis by analysis" scenario. My take on it is to just get a G19, which is far more versatile than a G26 and put a few hundred rounds through it without altering it. If you don't like it, you can pretty much sell it for what you paid.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:53 AM   #175
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My getting a Glock is a similar story to yours, perhaps I can offer some insight.

When I left the PRC back 15 year ago I got back in to guns as a hobby / pastime. I was in the PRC for about 20 years.

The purchase of the Glock was for concealed carry, since I could now legally carry a gun.
The Glock trigger dingus safety was way outside my comfort zone. A good IWB horsehide holster solved the issue for me.

My wife is a darn good shot, but does not have my enthusiasm for firearms. She is a smart and practical lady. She showed interest in learning the ways of the Glock.
She loved the simplicity, nothing to "remember" point at bad guy, pull trigger. Initially "no safety" scared her. She became comfortable and proficient with the Glock like falling off a log.

My take is a lot of folks are similar. I better understand how Glock has dominated LE sales. High quality and simplicity at reasonable cost.
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