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Old January 26, 2021, 02:22 PM   #26
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I think it's because revolver shooters are a hidebound bunch, who don't like new-fangled intrusions into their mysterious ways.
Two of the three DA revolvers I own are clip-fed .45s, and I much prefer that means of loading, but if I were shopping for another revolver, I doubt I'd insist on clip feeding.
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Old January 26, 2021, 02:23 PM   #27
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""Yes, but the difference is that .25 and .32 ACP are semi-rimmed."

Hum.... so they are...

I was thinking primarily of the Alpha-made solid frame revolver...
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Old January 26, 2021, 02:34 PM   #28
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The most commercially successful revolvers shooting rimless rounds are the Ruger convertibles. And by commercially successful, I mean have been in continuous production since they were introduced in the late 60s are are still in production today.

I believe this is because they ALSO shoot a popular rimmed round. Its a pretty rare thing for someone to buy a Blackhawk convertible to get a 9mm or .45acp revolver. Though there are some that do. I was, in 1983.

I bought a Ruger Blackhawk 45 convertible with the sole intent of getting a gun that would shoot the same ammo I used in my semi auto, but one that didn't leave me hunting in the weeds for my brass.

That was the plan. I made one small mistake...I bought a box of .45 Colt ammo (Winchester) and my "mistake" was shooting it first. The gun roared and the muzzle pointed to the sky. WOW!

From that point on, I was hooked on the .45 Colt and in all these years since, I think that Ruger has only had about 300 rnds of ACP put through it. Years later I went looking for the .357/9mm but there weren't any around locally right then, and I found a great deal on a .357 without the 9mm cylinder, so I bought that, and I've not bothered with the 9mm in revolvers since.

The original S&W and Colt 1917s were built to use HALF MOON clips (3rnd) and speed of loading was not the point. The point was reliable simultaneous EJECTION. The fact that the revolver could be loaded faster was a plus, not the intended purpose.

In the 20s, Western (I think) came out with the .45 Auto Rim, for use in those guns without clips. The "full moon" (6rnd) clips popular today are a fairly recent innovation, relatively speaking, and due to various tolerances, don't work in all guns.

Another gun, not previously mentioned, is the Mk VI Webley. Many of them were "shaved" to allow the use of clipped .45acp brass when supplies of .455 ammo dried up. I have one that was "just barely shaved" apparently a bit less than most others, and it will work fine with S&W half moon clips, but won't work with any others, won't work with any full moon clip I tried, and won't work with .45AR brass. They are just too thick. I also have a handful of 2rnd clips (1/3 moon?) no idea who made them, or when. My Webley does work ok with them, too. Also I am aware that Webleys converted to use ACP brass in clips should NEVER be shot with ACP ammunition. standard .45acp ammo is too hot, use the BRASS not the ammo, and load to Webley pressure levels only.

The thing with revolvers chambered for rimless rounds, particularly 9mm is that while they sell some at first (novelty factor) the demand tapers off rapidly and doesn't justify continuous production. Several models have been made, none of them has been able to last in commercial production.

Other than the Ruger convertibles, where the rimless round cylinder is an accessory, rather than the primary or sole purpose of the gun.

9mm, 10mm, and .45acp DA revolvers have been done, some good ones, but low demand means they get dropped, eventually. Some are in production today, or were until recently. If you want one, get one, but don't expect to always be able to get a new made one.

There were some .25acp revolvers made in Europe, I think before WW I. And often the .32acp will work in some .32 revolvers. This is because those rounds are technically "semi-rimmed" and not true rimless rounds. All of Browning's early case designs, .25, 32, and .38 were semi-rimmed, as at the time he wasn't certain a true rimless round would be reliable. He did change his mind (probably because of the 9mm Luger) and designed the .45acp as a true rimless round.
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Old January 26, 2021, 02:41 PM   #29
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I predict the number of in production guns under $600 is a very short list.
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Old January 26, 2021, 02:42 PM   #30
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"The most commercially successful revolvers shooting rimless rounds are the Ruger convertibles. And by commercially successful, I mean have been in continuous production since they were introduced in the late 60s are are still in production today."

With a few exceptions for war time, I'm pretty sure that the S&W Model 25 and its pre-number predecessor was a catalog item from the 1920s right through the early 2000s before it took a short break.

"In the 20s, Western (I think) came out with the .45 Auto Rim"

Peters Cartridge Company developed the .45 Auto Rim.
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Old January 26, 2021, 03:37 PM   #31
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Wright
Around 1940 Israel approached Smith & Wesson about making a modified N-Frame Model 1917 in 9 mm parabellum. I believe around 1950 or so there was an Israeli made copy of the S&W K-Frame in 9mm.
Israel didn't exist until 1948.
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Old January 26, 2021, 03:59 PM   #32
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I wouldn't say revolver shooters are a "hidebound bunch", rather, like a semiauto pistol that fires a rimmed cartridge, it sounds like fun, then the practicalities intrude. The only really succesful semiautos I know of for rimmed cartridges are the Colt Gold Cup and S&W in 38 Special, they filled a niche but were not general purpose handguns. The Israelis dropped their 9MM revolver and adopted the Beretta Brigadier.
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Old January 26, 2021, 05:14 PM   #33
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Mike, you're right Peters is right, i got them mixed up. And, you're probably right about the S&W 25 running longer in production, though I do find convertible Rugers waay more often. It might be possible that Ruger has made more of them than S&W 25s??

Quote:
The only really succesful semiautos I know of for rimmed cartridges are the Colt Gold Cup and S&W in 38 Special, they filled a niche but were not general purpose handguns
How about Desert Eagles?? .357 and .44 Magnum. They've been in production since 84 (.357) so niche or not, I'd consider them successful.
I've also had an LAR Grizzly in .44 Mag and I have a Coonan in .357 which, interstingly is only 1/8 to 1/4" larger in length, height and width than a standard Colt Govt model .45acp.

I understand that LAR closed down the Grizzly to use the capacity for other projects, not because they were losing money.

Coonan closed down, but came back a few years ago, though I don't think they are currently operating. These are guns made for field use, not target matches, and in magnum calibers. Niche? sure, but its a niche I use so I'm glad they fill it.
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Old January 26, 2021, 05:29 PM   #34
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Probably not enough shooters around like me, who actually like, buy and use revolvers chambered for semi-auto pistol cartridges, for such revolvers to ever be a big hit. I have tried to to do my part to make up for any manufactuer's slow sales of such revolvers. I've owned a Ruger convertible "Buckeye" 38-40/10mm, .357/9mm, GP100 10mm, SP101 9mm, S&W 610, 547 and 940, Colt SAA .45 Colt/.45 ACP., Freedom Arms .454/.45 ACP, etc. Still have a revolver or two chambered for semi-auto pistol cartridges. Never shot a round of 38-40 in the Ruger Buckeye, or a round of .45 Colt in my .45C/.45 ACP SAA.

I used to shoot with an informal group of about a dozen shooters. I think I was the only one who did not own a S&W 625 and/or 25-2. Don't know how I allowed that to happen
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Old January 26, 2021, 09:04 PM   #35
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I've got a few SA Rugers that are convertibles. Only reason though is because they were revolvers that I wanted... badly, and the .45 ACP and 9mm cylinders came with the package. Of course now, the auto cylinders just sit in their respective gun cases and never get used. There was a time where I did some testing with .45 ACP in one of those revolvers, but then it hit me... Why am I doing this? I enjoy getting a bang out of .45 Colt, so just shoot that. One just crimps into the crimp groove (no measuring), plenty of powder options due to case volume, and lots of bullet options... Win Win.... Never looked back. Leave the auto cartridges to the semi-auto pistols ... where they really belong. IMHO.

Which is the long way around to saying, I wonder how many actually use both cylinders when they do buy a convertible. Convertibles do sale it seems.
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Old January 26, 2021, 09:24 PM   #36
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"And, you're probably right about the S&W 25 running longer in production, though I do find convertible Rugers waay more often. It might be possible that Ruger has made more of them than S&W 25s??"

I'd be more inclined to say that people aren't as willing to get rid of an N-frame chambered in .45 ACP....
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Old January 26, 2021, 09:26 PM   #37
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"The only really succesful semiautos I know of for rimmed cartridges..."

Are the literally hundreds of various designs---from virtually every nation that's manufactured firearms--chambered for the ubiquitous .22 Long Rifle cartridge over the last 100+ years...
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Old January 27, 2021, 01:12 AM   #38
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Bought a Ruger LCR9mm when they first came out and never looked back. Love this revolver. Love shooting it. I like the ballistics, moon clips, moderate recoil etc. When ammo shortage did not exist shooting the cheap cost 9mm was another advantage. Typically load up 50 moon clips the day before a range session. Just a fun gun to shoot. Also like the fact that I can train with the 22.cal as a supplement.

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Old January 27, 2021, 01:52 AM   #39
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Single actions with rimless calibers are doing fine, but that's because only Ruger is really doing them. Yeah, Magnum Research will make you a cylinder for rimless in the BFR, but IDK who is actually paying the money for them to.

For DA's, the 9mm is out there, I think for the LCR it's popular, but people are leery about something that doesn't use a roll crimp. BTW, snub 9mm's are the ones that make the most sense, 9mm is very efficient with a short barrel while .357 is not and I'm talking with non-boutique ammo like Buffalo Bore. If you wanna compare ammo that's 50 cents/rd vs ammo that is $2/rd, you're not making a fair comparison.

Also, 9mm in a revolver has recoil, not as much as .357, but a lot more than .38 does. This isn't as much an issue in the larger frame revolvers like the Blackhawk or Taurus 692, but with a longer barrel .357 gets more out of it than 9mm does.

Less people are buying .40 pistols, even fewer buy a .40 revolver.

10mm revolvers... yeah, they can shoot .40 no issue, but apparently so can a lot of 10mm pistols.

It's .45 ACP when things start to make sense in just about any frame size or barrel length and people seem to buy them. At standard pressures, .45 ACP does the same thing as .45 Colt, but with a much less expensive and more popular/common ammo.

I wish more than S&W and Charter would make a double action .45 ACP revolver tho. S&W's are too pricey and the Charters are meh.
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Old January 27, 2021, 09:17 AM   #40
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Back when I was a youngster, and poured over the Shooters Bible like other boys my age did a Playboy they found under their dad's mattress, I would drool over Rugers Blackhawk convertible in 38/357/9mm. AHHAAA...the perfect revolver for someone who traveled all over the world. You'd be able to ammo of one kind or the other, almost everywhere.

Of course later, I learned that there really weren't that many places were anyone, and certainly not a visiting American could carry a handgun period. So much for that dream.

I also seem to remember Ruger offering for a short time a Speed-Six in 9mm. Story was it was a request from Israel for a police revolver that could use the 9mm ammo that was so common in that part of the world. It used a weird extraction system that used a loop of wire to grasp the extractor cartridge. As the case was extracted, the loop was supposed to open up, allowing the case to drop free. Even back then, as dumb as I was I could see "that ain't gonna work." It didn't, and I heard/read that the guns quickly faded/were converted to use clips of some type.
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Old January 27, 2021, 10:30 AM   #41
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Aquilia Blanca, I reiterate:


Quote:
This article will examine what is known about a prototype revolver developed by pre-state defense organizations and the industrial group Ta’as in collaboration. This project started in the 1940s as an effort to design and produce a sidearm using the ubiquitous 9×19mm Parabellum cartridge. The proliferation of Sten guns throughout the region meant a sidearm of the same caliber would simplify logistics significantly for the Jewish underground. 9mm Parabellum was also readily produced in pre-state Israel (prior to 1948 in a covert operation that included the Ayalon Institute) so it was a logical choice in caliber.


Experimentation with a 9mm revolver began at the Smith and Wesson factory in 1943. These early prototypes were made on N frames and were likely nothing more than hand-fit prototypes.(1) This experimentation paid off when the Chinese Government requested S&W produce a


It seems there were Israelis before there was Israel.


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Old January 27, 2021, 10:32 AM   #42
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There were a bunch of little Belgian revolvers made for 25 acp made way before
WWI. Mostly folding trigger pocket guns, some with manual safeties.

There was also the Nico Werke 20 round 25 acp. 2 barrels, 2 rows of chambers in
cylinder. Around 1910
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Old January 27, 2021, 10:34 AM   #43
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Quote:
There were a bunch of little Belgian revolvers made for 25 acp made way before
WWI. Mostly folding trigger pocket guns, some with manual safeties.

There was also the Nico Werke 20 round 25 acp. 2 barrels, 2 rows of chambers in
cylinder. Around 1910
Again my original post was "for rimless cartridges."

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Old January 27, 2021, 10:54 AM   #44
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The 22RF seems to work in any action, revolver, semiauto pistol, bolt, semiauto rifle, lever action, slide, pump, you name it.
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Old January 27, 2021, 01:12 PM   #45
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Quote:
I also seem to remember Ruger offering for a short time a Speed-Six in 9mm. Story was it was a request from Israel for a police revolver that could use the 9mm ammo that was so common in that part of the world.
I heard a slightly different story about the Ruger Speed-Six 9mm. No idea if its true or not, but it is plausible. Story I heard was Ruger made them at French request, and then the French declined to purchase them. US interest at the time was essentially nil, and then Israel said "we'll take 'em!"

Story also says the French first approached S&W. Supposedly S&W said "sure, we can make them,..CASH UP FRONT!" At which point the French went to see Ruger.....

Probably just a story, I have no way of knowing, but I can easily believe it could have happened that way...
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Old January 27, 2021, 02:19 PM   #46
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You know, now that you mention that, the French story does ring a bell for me too.
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Old January 27, 2021, 04:54 PM   #47
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A few years back I picked up a Thunder Ranch S&W Model 22 in 45 ACP. With moon clips the guns near perfect and is very manageable in that revolver configuration. It's a lot of fun to shoot and would recommend to anyone looking to get a revolver in that caliber.
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Old January 27, 2021, 05:19 PM   #48
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Post #28 above is spot on, 44Amp for the win.

I've owned more than a few Rugers that happened to have convertible cylinders. Since I was reloading hundreds of .45 acp target rounds, I thought that would be useful. Meh. It was much more fun to hand load .45 colt "artillery shell sized" brass with a nice easy cowboy load of Unique and take my time like a proper cowboy.

The 9mm cylinder never did get used, nor the .22 Mag cylinder... sold those guns off.

Now if I had the .32-20 cylinder for my .32 H&R Magnum single six I would be hard pressed to pick which I preferred! That's a rare Ruger and I wish I had that cylinder!!!
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Old January 27, 2021, 06:00 PM   #49
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Not enough pictures in this thread





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Old January 27, 2021, 06:49 PM   #50
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Recoil on the LCR9mm only moderate at least for me. No where near a 357.About the same as 38 plus P. and you have a heavier revolver than the 38. Plus you do not get the flash and loud noise. The Ballistics are about the same are better than many Micro 9mm. I have reloaded with a lee factory crimp with on problems. I have been shooting the gun since it first came out and no problems. In fact one of my favorite guns to shoot. PS I do not use the Ruger moon clips. I buy in bulk from another source and they work much better and Hold up very well.

http://mousegunaddict.blogspot.com/2...t-9mm-for.html

Here is a excellent review with Ballistics compared to other micro 9mm's
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