How to lessen the chances of prosecution following a self defense shooting.

[Ignition Override]

USCCA has info on exactly what to say and do.
This is my carry insurance company.

Would you like me to find the exact wording which they highly recommend if involved in a self-defense shooting?

If a bystander or friend of an attacker calls 911...Before You Can Call 911...reportedly their "version" of events is what the police act on.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by shurshot

Really? Please cite the law that says you have to call 911 if you are involved in a self defense incident. I am really curious. (Double Naught Spy).

Why would someone NOT call 911 if they were just involved in a legitimate, justifiable self defense / use of force situation? Really scratching my head on this one.

Why someone would not call 9-1-1 isn't the question. Radny97 made a categorical statement that a shooter must call 9-1-1. Double Naught asked where the law says that. I think it's a fair question.

Originally Posted by Radny97

1. How would you report the shooting if you don’t call 911? You have to call and say something, and it better dang well be the truth and not be so limited in information that you raise suspicion.

And then there's 44 AMP's question:

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Got any suggestions for what to do in a situation where you can't call 911 without leaving the scene??

Yes, I know -- today everyone has a cell phone. Well, maybe this time I left mine at home on the charger because I was only running to the corner store for a bag of chips and a bottle of soda. Maybe the incident took place in a location where there's no cell phone signal. (Oh, yes, such places exist, all over the United States.) Maybe in attempting to de-escalate the situation I tried to run away and my phone fell out of my pocket, and now I don't know where it is.

I don't think anyone has argued that it's not a good idea to call 9-1-1 (although there is debate over how much to tell the dispatcher). The question is: does the law require the shooter to call 9-1-1? Radny97 is posting here as an attorney, so when he writes "you must ___" I think it's fair to ask where the law says that. And is that just his state's law, or is that the law in every state?

[DMK]

If a bystander or friend of an attacker calls 911...Before You Can Call 911...reportedly their "version" of events is what the police act on.

I've had more than one cop tell me that in a situation like this, there are two categories the police put people in. Victim and perp. The first one to call 911 will get put in the victim category, at least temporarily until all the facts are figured out (if ever).

Mas Ayoob's story that I related above (and probably didn't do justice) illustrates one example of that.

It's not like the actual facts of what really happened are always revealed completely and truthfully.

[Shane Tuttle]

Originally Posted by shurshot

Why would someone NOT call 911 if they were just involved in a legitimate, justifiable self defense / use of force situation? Really scratching my head on this one.

I live in Western Montana...in a remote area. I go places where cell phone coverage is nil and not exactly a 7-11 at every corner. Someone attacks me with intent to end my life or grave bodily injury and I defend myself. Tell me how I'm supposed to call 911 right after the event.

[44 AMP]

Yes, I know -- today everyone has a cell phone.

Actually, not everyone does.

And, even if you do there are places where they just don't work.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Actually, not everyone does.

True, but enough people do that it's a common perception that everyone does.

And, even if you do there are places where they just don't work.

That was one of my points.

[Radny97]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

Got any suggestions for what to do in a situation where you can't call 911 without leaving the scene??

Easy. Render aid. After that it’s the same as when you have to shoot a bear or cougar in self defense. You get into a place with cell phone coverage and call the authorities.

And to be clear, i wasn’t saying the law requires you to call 911 (although some states do) but if you don’t call and just leave the scene, you might as well decide right now if you prefer the top bunk or the bottom bunk in your prison cell. Because that’s where you’ll be spending lots of time in the future.

Honestly how did we get here? Am i really arguing with some internet ninjas about whether it’s a good idea or not to call 911 after shooting another person?

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Radny97

Honestly how did we get here? Am i really arguing with some internet ninjas about whether it’s a good idea or not to call 911 after shooting another person?

No. Did you see anyone suggest that?

But we are arguing about your advice to render first aid. I'm 76 years old, I've been doing this for "awhile," and you are absolutely the first person I have ever encountered who has suggested approaching someone you just had to shoot, disarming them, frisking them, and then setting aside your weapon and your cell phone (because you only have two hands) to provide first aid to the person who a moment ago was a deadly threat to your life.

I give you full credit for sticking to your advice but, IMHO, it's terrible advice and it runs contrary to what just about all experts advise. The reasons have been well explored in previous posts in this thread.

[shurshot]

"Honestly how did we get here? Am i really arguing with some internet ninjas about whether it’s a good idea or not to call 911 after shooting another person?"

That about sums it up Radny97! Internet Ninja's often end up incarcerated, no matter how in the right they think they are. Ego. Welcome to the Firing line.

An example of ego taking a man down the wrong road;
I knew a gun dealer decades ago who ended up doing time, because he shot at a carload of alleged thugs in his driveway. He had been broken into previously, had guns stolen and "knew" he was justified in shooting at them in his long driveway with his .44 Super Blackhawk because he was home this time and they were about to rob him again (turned out it wasn't even the same people). He didn't hit anyone, but shot the car, blew out windshield, scared the kids, teens who were looking for a place to party, or at least that's what they, as victims, told the police. Prosecutors and Judge didn't agree with his defense. His ego cost him 4 years and a Felony conviction. He should have just gotten the tag number and called Police, retreated behind a locked door and waited for LEO's. Ego and excuses didn't hold up in court. 4 years was a long time for an older man.

Back to the original topic; Anyone on the right side of the law would either call immediately after a self defense situation and or make efforts to call ASAP. That is just common sense, whether it's the law in that specific State or not. If one doesn't have a phone, GO FIND ONE!! Excuses won't get you far in front of a judge.

As far as safely rendering aid after the fact, I agree with the OP. He posted some very solid advice. Compassion and empathy are never a bad thing. We need more of that in this world.

[vito]

No one has mentioned the political climate and the political perspective of the prosecutor. Right now it seems that prosecutor's, as well as some police departments, are running scared to death of BLM and so-called "social justice warriors". Shoring up their political support with the Black community can be achieved by prosecuting a white shooter regardless of what the shooter did or did not do, even if clearly self defense. And this is a not a new phenomena. Just read "Bonfire of the Vanities" by Tom Wolfe in 1987.

I think attempting to render aid could as likely be seen as seeking to inflict further harm on the person shot as it could be seen as truly rendering aid. I think that if I were even in a position to have to shoot someone in self defense, I will most likely be hyper aware of continued threat and not about to let my guard down to holster my gun and focus on providing first aid.

[Ricklin]

We are rendering aid by calling for the EMT's. I've had extensive first aid training.
In no way am I prepared to "treat" a gunshot victim in this scenario.

The best I could likely do given the scenario is apply direct pressure in an attempt to staunch the bleeding.
Pray tell how could I do that without PPE? I really don't need to impact my physical health, the mental side will be difficult enough.

There are plenty of blood borne diseases besides aids. The chances of some low life with Hepatitis is pretty high. Not to mention the large number of other diseases that may be of greater impact long term.

[Radny97]

Originally Posted by shurshot

"Honestly how did we get here? Am i really arguing with some internet ninjas about whether it’s a good idea or not to call 911 after shooting another person?"

That about sums it up Radny97! Internet Ninja's often end up incarcerated, no matter how in the right they think they are. Ego. Welcome to the Firing line.

An example of ego taking a man down the wrong road;
I knew a gun dealer decades ago who ended up doing time, because he shot at a carload of alleged thugs in his driveway. He had been broken into previously, had guns stolen and "knew" he was justified in shooting at them in his long driveway with his .44 Super Blackhawk because he was home this time and they were about to rob him again (turned out it wasn't even the same people). He didn't hit anyone, but shot the car, blew out windshield, scared the kids, teens who were looking for a place to party, or at least that's what they, as victims, told the police. Prosecutors and Judge didn't agree with his defense. His ego cost him 4 years and a Felony conviction. He should have just gotten the tag number and called Police, retreated behind a locked door and waited for LEO's. Ego and excuses didn't hold up in court. 4 years was a long time for an older man.

Back to the original topic; Anyone on the right side of the law would either call immediately after a self defense situation and or make efforts to call ASAP. That is just common sense, whether it's the law in that specific State or not. If one doesn't have a phone, GO FIND ONE!! Excuses won't get you far in front of a judge.

As far as safely rendering aid after the fact, I agree with the OP. He posted some very solid advice. Compassion and empathy are never a bad thing. We need more of that in this world.

Thank you. At least I’m not alone. Whether or not my opinion is good tactical advice in the moment is debatable. But I’m quite certain that rendering aid after a shooting will markedly decrease the likelihood of a prosecution/conviction after the fact.


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[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by Radny97

Thank you. At least I’m not alone. Whether or not my opinion is good tactical advice in the moment is debatable. But I’m quite certain that rendering aid after a shooting will markedly decrease the likelihood of a prosecution/conviction after the fact.

We are going to have to agree to disagree on this point.

Remember, you live in a gun-friendly state. A great many of us don't.

[44 AMP]

But I’m quite certain that rendering aid after a shooting will markedly decrease the likelihood of a prosecution/conviction after the fact.

Can't say what a prosecutor might or might not consider, but I think there is "another side of the coin" that you need to consider about jurors and likelihood of conviction.

And that is, the fact that you might have someone(s) on the jury who will look at you (not EMT trained) rendering aid to the person you just had to shoot...they might look at things this way... If you're stupid enough to do that, you're probably stupid enough to have made a serious error in judgement about if it was necessary (and legal) to shoot in the first place.

Obviously, you think rendering aid is a smart move, but not everyone is going to agree with that.

[shurshot]

"And that is, the fact that you might have someone(s) on the jury who will look at you (not EMT trained) rendering aid to the person you just had to shoot...they might look at things this way... If you're stupid enough to do that, you're probably stupid enough to have made a serious error in judgement about if it was necessary (and legal) to shoot in the first place." (44Amp)

I think that's reaching. I'm not a lawyer. But I do know lots of Prosecutors and Judges, and least the ones I have observed and or interacted with over the past 2 decades and they look for your intent and subsequent actions (or lack thereof) and were you acting in good faith, trying render first aid, displaying reasonable actions (or NOT!), are all deciding factors in whether or not you may be charged and or convicted. This is why I agree with the OP, he knows what he is talking about in my opinion.

Coming up with excuses ("no cell service", "I'm not trained", blah, blah, blah etc.), to NOT help a human that you just injured, perhaps mortaly wounded, certainly doesn't paint a pretty picture of your intent or frame of mind.

The OP outlined some very good advice. For the life of me I don't see why so many of you want to ignore it, argue and or debate semantics. I guess that's just how it is on the FL. If you have a Lawyer giving you his perspective based upon Courtroom experience, FOR FREE, why argue?

[vito]

Always double tap and if you are successful, rendering aid will be a moot issue.

[Warhammer]

Free internet legal advice is worth about 50% of what you paid for it.

As for myself, I would certainly call 911 after I was forced into a violent confrontation. I would certainly NOT put myself within arm's reach of the person who forced that violent confrontation.

[Radny97]

Originally Posted by shurshot

Coming up with excuses ("no cell service", "I'm not trained", blah, blah, blah etc.), to NOT help a human that you just injured, perhaps mortaly wounded, certainly doesn't paint a pretty picture of your intent or frame of mind.

Yep


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[Double Naught Spy]

...to NOT help a human that you just injured, perhaps mortaly wounded,...

Well, if they are mortally wounded, you aren't going to be of any help, are you? LOL. You are just going to put yourself in danger.

I will tell you what. Maybe you and Radny97 can come up with some actual statistics to verify his/her claims and actually validate his/her points. Maybe y'all can come up with a number of citable examples where not rendering aid to the bad guy swayed the jury's opinion and resulted in a conviction in a self defense shooting.

Teachable, documented examples are much more helpful than blustery opinion from a person who is only able to cite his/her purported occupation to justify credibility to the claims.

[Aguila Blanca]

Originally Posted by shurshot

The OP outlined some very good advice. For the life of me I don't see why so many of you want to ignore it, argue and or debate semantics. I guess that's just how it is on the FL. If you have a Lawyer giving you his perspective based upon Courtroom experience, FOR FREE, why argue?

We're not arguing semantics, we're arguing common sense. We don't think it's wise to approach within arms' length of someone who just attacked you, placing yourself within easy reach of someone who intended to do you serious bodily harm, and put away your gun so you can render first aid.

Now, what if you're not trained in trauma medicine? You administer what you think is first aid, and he dies. Maybe his family's lawyer then sues you and says that whatever you did to him after you shot him [without justification, of course] contributed to his death from what [the lawyer says] should have been a survivable wound.

As for free legal advice on the Internet: I'm old enough to remember that, before Gary Slider started up www.handgunlaw.us, there was a web site called packing.org. In fact, I think Gary might have been involved in maintaining that site, but it wasn't his site. One day on that site a lawyer (he said) posted up a legal opinion that it's perfectly legal to carry on U.S. Postal Service property. He backed it up with quotes from sections of federal law.

Within 24 hours, probably a dozen people had chimed in to point out that he totally ignored 39 CFR § 232.1 - Conduct on postal property. 39 CFR § 232.1 clearly states that "Notwithstanding the provisions of any other law, rule or regulation, no person while on postal property may carry firearms, other dangerous or deadly weapons, or explosives, either openly or concealed, or store the same on postal property, except for official purposes."

A couple of days later the attorney retracted his opinion.

Radny97 has given us his opinion. Several people have explained exactly why they think his advice is poor advice. You are free to follow whichever advice you think makes more sense.

[shurshot]

Pretty much a given that if you are involved in a shooting, you WILL likely be sued in civil court. Common knowledge among LEO's and knowledgeable CCW permit holders. That's the nature of the beast. Knowing that, If people still don't feel a moral or legal obligation to safely attempt to render first aid to someone they just shot, so be it.

The OP gave some sound advice, based upon his training and experience in Court to lessen the chances of possible prosecution in Criminal court. If people chose to disregard it and come up with "What if" scenarios and various BS excuses to dispute, disagree and dismiss his advice and render help, again... so be it.

I seriously hope none of you guys ever have to find out the hard way that he was right when you end up talking to a Public Defender through plexiglas.

[44 AMP]

Coming up with excuses ("no cell service", "I'm not trained", blah, blah, blah etc.), to NOT help a human that you just injured, perhaps mortaly wounded, certainly doesn't paint a pretty picture of your intent or frame of mind.

And just what frame of mind should one be in after having to shoot someone who tried to kill them? Charitable and compassionate for the suffering that they caused??

Sorry, I'm not that big of a person.

[Radny97]

Originally Posted by Double Naught Spy

Well, if they are mortally wounded, you aren't going to be of any help, are you? LOL. You are just going to put yourself in danger.

I will tell you what. Maybe you and Radny97 can come up with some actual statistics to verify his/her claims and actually validate his/her points. Maybe y'all can come up with a number of citable examples where not rendering aid to the bad guy swayed the jury's opinion and resulted in a conviction in a self defense shooting.

Teachable, documented examples are much more helpful than blustery opinion from a person who is only able to cite his/her purported occupation to justify credibility to the claims.

Haha classic logical fallacy = “you must prove the negative”


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[Radny97]

Originally Posted by Aguila Blanca

Maybe his family's lawyer then sues you and says that whatever you did to him after you shot him [without justification, of course] contributed to his death from what [the lawyer says] should have been a survivable wound.

As has been mentioned previously, Good Samaritan’s statutes, which almost all states have, provide liability protection for just that scenario. So you can’t be sued if you screw something up when trying to help.


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[Mainah]

As has been mentioned previously, Good Samaritan’s statutes, which almost all states have, provide liability protection for just that scenario. So you can’t be sued if you screw something up when trying to help.

That might be the worst legal advice I've ever heard.