New to rifle cartridge hand loading

[Scribe]

Hi all, I am after forty years of hand loading pistol calibre cartridges now moving into rifle rounds.
I am reloading .308 Winchester for a customised Mauser K.98 with an Israeli 7.62 NATO barrel. ( I am aware of the .308/7.62 issues and have shot hundreds of factory .308 rounds through the rifle with no problems.)I have no personal experience of hand loading rifle rounds and am proceeding with caution.
The cases are once fired IMI which don’t need trimming. I have tumbled and deprimed using lubricant.
A question. Once de primed, do the cases need to be tumbled again to remove excess grease, or is a wipe down sufficient?
All advice or observations gratefully received

[ligonierbill]

This has come up before, and opinions vary. I lube with a RCBS lube pad and have always just wiped down my cases. By the way, I load 308 for a 1935 Brazilian with a Brownell's barrel. Never had a problem with feeding the shorter round.

[cdoc42]

Precision Shooting was a marvelous publication, even for a plinker like me, dedicated to non-competition accurate shooting. It was filled with information many times too technical for my need, but what follows is offered as an answer to the question from the OP:

Issue: November 1993. Page 9-10 Author: Creighton Audette

“When the powder is ignited and the gas pressure curve starts to rise, the first thing that happens is that the case neck is expanded and gas leaks out around the bullet and flows back along the outside of the case neck. This causes the blackening typically seen on neck O.D.’s. With further pressure increases, the neck wall, the shoulder area, and the body wall for some distance to the rear are expanded and grip the chamber wall tightly. A further increase in pressure will then stretch the thicker body wall back near the case head until the case head comes back against the bolt face. The forward wall section remains firmly held against the chamber as long as the gas pressures are high. However, this is true only when the chamber wall and the cartridge case are clean and dry. Under these conditions, the back thrust of the case on the bolt face is substantially reduced as the wall of the cartridge case carries a portion of the thrust load.”

Grease or oil reduces friction between the case and chamber, allowing the case to slide back.
If grease or oil is left in the chamber of the rifle, there will be more back thrust on the bolt until that oil or grease is removed until it is carried out on the fired cases. The additional back thrust can change barrel vibrations, and, consequently, bullet impacts.
Careless handloaders doing full length sizing sometimes simply wipe the sizing lubricant off cases with a rag or paper towel, leaving a film of lubricant behind. It can have a substantial effect on the group.”

Early in my handloading career, I wiped every case off with carburetor cleaner. Eventually, I got a case tumbler. My procedure now is to clean fired cases with corn cob media impregnated with polish before resizing. After sizing, I clean again with plain media to remove the lube.

[GeauxTide]

This has come up before, and opinions vary. I lube with a RCBS lube pad and have always just wiped down my cases. By the way, I load 308 for a 1935 Brazilian with a Brownell's barrel. Never had a problem with feeding the shorter round.

Why would you tumble with lubricant and de-prime with lubricant? Use a cap full of Nu Finish car wax after you start the tumbler and your cases come out brilliant with no residue. I've used Imperial Sizing Wax for the cases and Graphite for the necks for 40 years and no issues because I never introduce lubricant to the inside of the case or primer pocket.

[ligonierbill]

Maybe I should restate to be clear. Here is what I do:
Tumble spent cases in either walnut or corn cob media
Lubricate my cases by rolling them on a RCBS lube pad with water soluble lube
Size and deprime (one step)
Wipe off the lubricant with a damp cloth
Continue with reloading.

[cdoc42]

I have a feeling Geauxtide was referring to my post, maybe not; but I don't understand this question:
"Why would you tumble with lubricant and de-prime with lubricant?"

I tumble a dirty, fired case with media and polish; then lube and resize/deprime; then tumble with plain media to remove the lube.

[Scribe]

Many thanks to all who replied. I will go with cdoc42’s advice and retumble the cases in dry media. It was the bit about lubricant degrading the accuracy that sold it to me.

[HiBC]

Scribe: Your process is good.It will do.
We all have our preferences. No need to follow me!

The die companies make a die called a "Universal Decapper" Lee makes a good,inexpensive one.

With that and a Lee hand press, I can deprime a bucket of brass under a shade tree while waiting for a fish to bite. Its not a "zero distraction critical operation"
Spent primers can be messy and uncomfortable to step on. Especially if someone else steps on them. Some ash may come out with the primers.

That task done,the brass goes into the tumbler . You get a break for a while.
That done, separate brass and media. Do check the flashhole is clear and no media is in the case.This way,the primer pockets are exposed to cleaning,
Now I can lube and size Press priming IS an option
But another option is back in the tumbler with plain corn cob media.
When its done,I have clean,dry,sized brass,

I like my hand priming tools that hold and feed 100 primers. Just priming a bucket of brass is no big deal.That can be done smoking some ribs(Yes.primers may contain lead. Take precautions!! Near anything I say can draw fire from the lurking sniper /critics who contribute nothing yet never miss a chance to take a shot)

Now my brass is prepped and primed.

Now I have to be focused and not distracted. But all I have to do is charge and seat. The fun part!!

I can hear the critics!! Takes you a dang week!!. OK. But if I'm single staging 500 or more rounds,breaking it into reasonably pleasant tasks that literally could be done while on a bank baitfishing is an alternative to a loading bench marathon

[jetinteriorguy]

I use the home made lanolin spray lube, after sizing I run it through my tumbler with used dryer sheets to clean off the lube. This is using crushed walnut media from Harbor Freight and a good shake of Barkeeps Friend.

[BJung]

I tumble my brass with walnut shells purchased at the feed store because it's the cheapest.

Then, I resize and de-prime my brass. I spray my cases with Hornady One shot at angle with medium sized cases. For large capacity cases, I spray the body and lube the neck with Imperial Sizing Wax or will try graphite later.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by cdoc42

From Precision Shooting

“When the powder is ignited and the gas pressure curve starts to rise, the first thing that happens is that the case neck is expanded and gas leaks out around the bullet and flows back along the outside of the case neck. This causes the blackening typically seen on neck O.D.’s. With further pressure increases, the neck wall, the shoulder area, and the body wall for some distance to the rear are expanded and grip the chamber wall tightly. A further increase in pressure will then stretch the thicker body wall back near the case head until the case head comes back against the bolt face. The forward wall section remains firmly held against the chamber as long as he gas pressures are high. However, this is true only when the chamber wall and the cartridge case are clean and dry. Under these conditions, the back thrust of the case on the bolt face is substantially reduced as the wall of the cartridge case carries a portion of the thrust load.”er towel, leaving a film of lubricant behind. It can have a substantial effect on the group.”

When does the bullet start moving?

Isn't the case shoulder pressed hard into the chamber shoulder before the primer fires?

[Nathan]

Once de primed, do the cases need to be tumbled again to remove excess grease, or is a wipe down sufficient?

I tumble after any lube application except Hornady One Shot. It is worth it to me to have a clean case. I have wiped before, but it doesn’t seem to really come off.

[cdoc42]

Bart B.: "When does the bullet start moving?

Isn't the case shoulder pressed hard into the chamber shoulder before the primer fires?"

I can't speak for Crighton Audette, but I get the impression the case shoulder, if resized as we often speak to here, is at least 0.002" set back, and even further if it is full length resized to fit anyone's rifle. In his article, he spoke of "full length resizing" and didn't mention shoulder setback.

[44 AMP]

Isn't the case shoulder pressed hard into the chamber shoulder before the primer fires?"

I'd have to say "maybe" on that. With all the different guns and their individual tolerances, it might not be. Certainly the question only applies to rimless bottle neck rounds. I do wonder if, sometimes, it is the extractor that stops case movement from the firing pin blow, and not the chamber shoulder.

As to tumbling, I tumble fired brass to remove exterior crud and grit. For some brass (and always for first time GI brass) I decap with the Lee punch and a hammer. For most brass I just lube, and size using the decapping stem in the sizer die.

In the old days I used to use the heavy thick lube in a tube from Lyman or RCBS, and the lube pad. That stuff does not come off well in a tumbler, don't waste your time that way. I removed the lube from the sized brass using lighter fluid and an old towel. A few minutes air dry and the cases were good to go back into the tumbler for a final polish, if I felt like it

I switched over to the ligher spray on lube and prefer the RCBS stuff in a pump spray bottle over the aerosols. Now, I tumble once lube, size & decap, and then tumble again (corncob) and there's no trace of the lube after that.

I also inspect each case for media in the flash hole, general condition and check for length. But, that's just me...

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

I'd have to say "maybe" on that. With all the different guns and their individual tolerances, it might not be. Certainly the question only applies to rimless bottle neck rounds. I do wonder if, sometimes, it is the extractor that stops case movement from the firing pin blow, and not the chamber shoulder.

Measure the maximum and minimum clearance from the bolt face to the extractor claw, then measure the case rim thickness. The difference is typically several thousandths.

If your case head clearance is 3 thousandths, the case shoulder will stop against the chamber shoulder long before the case rim gets to the extractor claw.

Spring loaded bolt face inline ejector's will push the chambered cartridge forward until it stops against its headspace limit.

Years ago, I was shown a rifle with a Mauser type claw extractor claw broken off. 300 Savage rounds were fired in a 308 Winchester chamber.

[44 AMP]

Years ago, I was shown a rifle with a Mauser type claw extractor claw broken off. 300 Savage rounds were fired in a 308 Winchester chamber.

And I've seen .30-06 that had .308 fired in it, and nothing broke. Absent more specific information I don't see how your example is relevant.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the mental picture I get doesn't quite match what you seem to be saying.

When you shove a round into the chamber, what stops its forward travel?? Seems to me that it has to be whatever part of the chamber is the headspace surface OR its the extractor.

Rimmed rounds and belted rounds that headspace on the belt, I can easily see them being "short" in the shoulder, and still being as deep in the chamber as they are going to go.

If a rimless case heaspaces on the shoulder, and that case shoulder is .002" (for example) short of the shoulder of the chamber, what is it that stops the case before it contacts the chamber shoulder? What about push feed rifles??
What stops the case being pushed in, so the extractor can snap over the rim, if NOT the chamber shoulder??

Apologies to the OP, we're getting into minutae here, and away from your original topic. Sorry.

[tank1949]

All bottle neck cases require extra steps compare to pistol cases that makes them difficult, but not impossible, to reload using a progressive or turret press. Dillon make a sizer/trimmer that will fit on most presses. They are SB. You may not want SB. I am sure that other manufactures make them too. You will also need to inspect inside cases after many reloads. They fatigue and heat creates a ring INSIDE. This ring will erupt during firing. You can use a bent paper clip to feel for a ring presence. Discard brass! Good luck!

[HiBC]

A lot of speculation can be avoided with a simple measurement.
Remove your bolt and use feeler gauges to see how far your case head can be off the bolt face before it stops on the extractor hook.

For a controlled round feed to work,the case rim must easily slip under the extractor hook as the cartridge is inclined up from the magazine to the chamber,before the feed lips/rails release the case head. I roughly estimate this cartridge angle to be approx 10 degrees,just for the purpose of illustration.
For the cartridge to "Go around the corner" there must be extractor hook to rim clearance.

If the rifle is chambered to SAAMI headspace specs,I don't think the extractor plays any legitimate part of being the "headspace stop"

[Scribe]

This is all good stuff and deep thanks to all who posted a reply. I have an RCBS progressive for my pistol calibre rounds but bought a Lee single stage just for rifle cartridges. I intend to proceed very carefully and act on this advice. Unfortunately all local ranges are closed due to the pandemic and so it will be some time before my loads are evaluated.
Everyone stay safe.

[rc]

I think you'll find a quick tumble will take off that sticky feeling and get you a better finished round.

[zeke]

Am dry tumbling fired brass (walnut), then resizing with imperial wax (or whatever it's call now adays), wiping wax off with rag (in bunches) then dry tumbling again very briefly.

Please pay attention to those saying they check the primer holes after second tumble. Usually pick up several at one time and look into primer hole against white back ground. Am always finding some with walnut lodged in some of the primer holes.

[cdoc42]

"Please pay attention to those saying they check the primer holes after second tumble. Usually pick up several at one time and look into primer hole against white back ground. Am always finding some with walnut lodged in the primer hole."

Note, the same is true with corn cob media. I knock it out with a tiny punch from a small screwdriver set, but a piece of stiff wire slightly smaller than the pocket hole size will do it as well.

[Bart B.]

Originally Posted by 44 AMP

And I've seen .30-06 that had .308 fired in it, and nothing broke. Absent more specific information I don't see how your example is relevant.

Maybe I'm missing something, but the mental picture I get doesn't quite match what you seem to be saying.

A 308 cartridge will wedge its body near its shoulder in a 30-06 chamber and moves forward very little as the firing pin impact fires the round.

The 300 Savage cartridge case body is shorter head to shoulder and diameters than the 308 chamber and can be fired if the extractor holds it when the firing pin smacks the primer. Subsequent so fired 300 rounds weakens the extractor until it breaks. Control feed actions let the case rim slide up behind the extractor claw as they are chambered from the box magazine.

Compare SAAMI cartridge and chamber dimensions to see the details.