Why does Law Enforcement not like the .45?

[johnelmore]

The .45 was designed with stopping power in mind. It was designed to stop a determined highly motivated attacker who might be on drugs. Additionally, its lower speed makes ricochets in close quarters less likely. When looking at the end result the .45 mushrooms into this scary monster that has no doubt in my mind that its going to produce a much larger hole on the attacker. There are many competition shooters who use the .45 and so there is no doubt its an effective tool.

Law Enforcement has tried so many different calibers from the .38 to the .357 to the 9mm to the .40 and now back to the 9mm.

Why dont they try the .45?

[ttarp]

Capacity capacity capacity, ever wonder why they switched from revolvers?

Grip size, 9mm and .40 allow for a smaller and more comfortable grip that works better overall for folks across the board.

Just my opinion.

[kenny53]

9mm will penetrate a windshield or car door where a 45 acp will not. My son was a cop for 10 years and he switched from 45 acp to 9mm for that reason and he shot the 9mm better. The 38/357 will penetrate better then the 45 acp.

[TunnelRat]

Depends on the department. The state troopers of my state and I believe the one over used 45ACP for a while. I think they did switch recently though.

Besides the arguments brought up above, another is likely cost. Now that the market has practically collapsed you can find 45ACP for some pretty amazing prices compared to a few years ago. But for some time it wasn't unheard of for 45ACP to be close to twice the cost of 9mm. I know when I do classes the guys that use 45ACP have pretty rough ammo bills.

[johnelmore]

I dont have a car that I can shoot to experiment with, but Im fairly certain that most rounds...to include the .45...will make it through a car door. The car door skin is made of thin sheet metal. Now the question is when it goes through that skin will it hit the safety bar or something else within the door? Im very confident most anything will make it through the skin to include you poking it with a screwdriver. Probably no rounds will make it through the safety bar and most will make it through the vinyl/cloth/plastic trim panel.

Glass is glass and pretty much anything will make it through that.

There are many unscientific demonstrations on Youtube to review. I think they all prove most anything can go through glass or a car door.

[bacardisteve]

Put a 255gr wadcutter in the 45 and run it at 850-900fps and all the Bs about it not penetrating barriers goes out the window.

[TunnelRat]

The laminated safety glass of the front windshield can deviate the path of a bullet quite a bit though. I'm trying to remember back to my Bullets and Vehicles class and I do seem to remember it deviating in its path more than the 9mm and 40SW. Frankly the 40SW did very well there.

[JohnKSa]

Why dont they try the .45?

I can't tell if you're being serious. Of course law enforcement has tried the .45. There are, no doubt, some departments that still issue the .45ACP and it is tested/evaluated along with other calibers when the FBI does their testing.

Ok, so why 9mm? It's actually pretty simple--there are two main factors that are critical to understanding this issue.

1. U.S. law enforcement tends to follow the FBI lead.

2. The FBI ammunition terminal performance evaluation is a pass-fail evaluation. If the ammunition passes, it passes. End of story.

Now that there is 9mm ammunition that passes the FBI ammunition testing the overall caliber selection process moves on to looking at other aspects of caliber selection beyond terminal performance. Things like capacity, officer shooting performance, practice costs, firearm costs, available platforms, etc. Just as the .40S&W was the clear winner in those categories when it was difficult to find 9mm ammo that passed the ammunition evaluation, now the 9mm is the clear winner in those categories and so it is the caliber that gets selected. And once the FBI selects it, the rest of U.S. law enforcement sits up and takes notice.

[JERRYS.]

today's administrators are interested in making a nice recruitment poster and not in hiring good cops. this results many times in people that simply cannot shoot a handgun well at all let alone one that recoils a little more OR requires more than a size 7 gloved hand to hold.

9mm is cheaper to shoot/supply. this makes sense when you have officers that have to shoot a quals course 2 or 3 times to pass it (after others have left the range usually).

I like the 9mm, but I also see daily some of the major reasons why we are carrying it.

[Dan-O]

I thought it was designed to take down charging enemy horses on the battlefield, not drugged up attackers.

[Hanshi]

Beats me! I carried a .45 1911 & Commander quite a bit as a cop.

[jr24]

Originally Posted by kenny53

9mm will penetrate a windshield or car door where a 45 acp will not. My son was a cop for 10 years and he switched from 45 acp to 9mm for that reason and he shot the 9mm better. The 38/357 will penetrate better then the 45 acp.

Not exactly true...

https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-bui...lds-insideout/
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-bui...lds-outsidein/
https://www.theboxotruth.com/the-bui...and-car-doors/

For LEO I would say Capacity, Size, Recoil is why they don't favor the .45 as much, and if you look at the various gel tests quality ammo nets very similar results between 9mm, .40 and .45.

Myself, I switch between 9mm and .45 depending on what I'm shooting/reloading most. My 1911s are more accurate in .45, but I get more rounds on target faster with the 9mm.

[kenny53]

Johnelmore, jr24: I stand corrected, thank you.

[ritepath]

For the same reasons civilians have went away from 45?

[MandolinMan]

I recently saw officers in Indianapolis carrying Sig P227's, which are chambered in 45 auto. There's no doubt that 45 auto is still in use.

I believe that the FBI plays a critical in the direction that law enforcement goes with regards to caliber selection. Recently the FBI stated:

“There is little to no noticeable difference in the wound tracks between premium line law Auto enforcement projectiles from 9mm Luger through the .45 Auto.”

I believe that's your answer.

[crazy charlie]

PA State Police carry the SIG 227 in .45 Auto.

[TunnelRat]

I see the argument that they shoot 9mm simply because the officers can't shoot come up fairly often. I feel I can shoot fairly well and still carry 9mm. Shooting well and carrying 9mm aren't mutually exclusive and while I certainly agree it is likely easier to train new officers or get them to qualify with 9mm I don't think lack of skill is the only reason for 9mm's prominence.

[jmr40]

* I've NEVER seen any proof that there is any real difference between comparable loads in 9mm, 40 S&W, 45 ACP or 357 mag when they impact humans. When FMJ ammo it used you get similar results with all of them. When good HP ammo is used all of them are better, yet similar. There is a TON of misinformation out there and many people who choose to believe the legend instead of the facts. 45 has never been any better than 9mm.

* The 357 mag and 38 Super were developed in the 1920's and 30's because 45's were failing to penetrate cars of the day. Today's cars may not stop any of them, but smaller calibers and more velocity defeat barriers better.

* There are many types of body armor that will easily stop 45, yet 9mm zips right through. The Russians spent a lot of time working on a handgun and ammo designed to defeat body armor, they selected hot loaded 9mm.

* The military was hugely disappointed with both the 1911 and the 45 after WW-2 and wanted to adopt 9mm at that time. It didn't happen only because of budget cuts. Their testing in 1946 showed 9mm bullets would penetrate a steel GI helmet out past 100 yards, 45's were bouncing off at ranges beyond 10 yards.

*The USA produced 9mm loads have traditionally been rather anemic, while the rest of the world has been using 9mm loads that will all but match 125 gr 357 mag loads. Now that we are able to buy ammo loaded to match what the rest of the world uses 9mm looks a lot better than it used to.

*Had today's 9mm loads been available in the 1980's the 40 S&W would have never been developed. At that time 40 did offered some advantages.

* In guns of similar size 9mm will always hold more ammo, it will have less recoil, it will defeat barriers better, it will cost less, and most shooters will shoot it more accurately.

* There is nothing wrong with 45 or 40 S&W. They work, but offer no advantages.

*Most Law Enforcement agencies tend to make decisions based on facts rather than legends. That is why very few carry 45.

[hornetguy]

IIRC, the .45 was designed precisely to bring down drugged attackers. The Moro tribesmen in the Philippines would rarely fall when shot with the .38 revolver, so something with more punch was needed... enter the 1911 and the .45 ACP.

[TunnelRat]

Yea, the .38 Long Colt was the cartridge in question. It is dramatically weaker than a typical 38 special or 9mm of today.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.38_Long_Colt

[Hawg]

IIRC, the .45 was designed precisely to bring down drugged attackers. The Moro tribesmen in the Philippines would rarely fall when shot with the .38 revolver, so something with more punch was needed... enter the 1911 and the .45 ACP.

That may be partially true but after the failure of the .38 they were issued .45 Colt revolvers.

[disseminator]

Yep, it was the 45 COLT that was brought into service to defeat the tribesmen. The 45 AUTO was developed a few years later and attempted to match a favorite 225g load that had proven effective in the conflict.

Most of the time the 45 is going to offer superior terminal performance than the 9mm. This is well established at least as far as gel testing is concerned. (Which is what the FBI uses)

Just look up gel tests of Federal HST ammo in 9mm, 40, and 45 AUTO and you will see that though they all perform great ( I carry the HST in all three calibers) the expanded diameter and average penetration increases right along with the caliber.

This isn't enough to offset the advantage of capacity and lighter recoil in the 9mm though.

Many Police have carried the 45. Remember this story from a while back:

https://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...mo-on-the-job/

[5whiskey]

Tons of LEO agencies use .45. It is NOT as popular as 9mm for reasons pretty well described already. Capacity, logistics (cost), recoil sensitive trainees, etc. .45 is a good caliber, but in a modern duty sized pistols it is very hard to argue that 10-11 rounds of 45 is better than 18-19 of 9mm.

There are many types of body armor that will easily stop 45, yet 9mm zips right through. The Russians spent a lot of time working on a handgun and ammo designed to defeat body armor, they selected hot loaded 9mm

Many of your points are accurate, some are very debatable, and this one is not intellectually honest. Russia created a 9x21 round that sent a 103grn projectile with a steel penetrator down-range that could defeat lvl II soft armor. 9mm+p, with a light FMJ, may stand a chance at defeating aged and flexed lvl II soft armor but it will hardly be a "zip right through" defeat. None-the-less, LE agencies will not be using 115 gn fmj +p ammo for duty ammo so the argument is moot. A Lvl II vest will stop expanding ammo, even hot 9mm. Admittedly, with it's lower velocity and larger surface area, .45 doesn't stand a chance of defeating LVL II body armor.

.45 is a great round, and I reject that it offers absolutely nothing over 9mm as many others do. I won't start that argument, however, as it does not net any real advantage over 9mm when you account for capacity. Plus Nato (not SAAMI) 9mm is a different animal than much of our American ammo, even SD/duty ammo.

[zincwarrior]

Because a person with normal hands can hold a firearm with 17 or 19 rounds in it. 1911s cannot.

[44 AMP]

I thought it was designed to take down charging enemy horses on the battlefield, not drugged up attackers.

IIRC, the .45 was designed precisely to bring down drugged attackers. The Moro tribesmen in the Philippines would rarely fall when shot with the .38 revolver, so something with more punch was needed... enter the 1911 and the .45 ACP.

Yea, the .38 Long Colt was the cartridge in question. It is dramatically weaker than a typical 38 special or 9mm of today.

Pretty close.

yes, it was the .38 Long Colt that didn't perform well enough, and as the bandaid the Army sent a bunch of Colt SAA's in .45 Colt. Then some DA guns in .45 Colt. By the time the 1911 came along the Moro uprising had mostly died down, though a friend tells me the last battle was in 1913, and some 1911s were involved.

The failure of the .38 to perform well didn't exactly create the .45acp, but it re-enforced the Army's resolve about what level of performance they needed from the new semi auto pistol under consideration.

And that level of performance was the equivalent of the .45 Schofield.

It would put down a man, it would put down a horse. It was a "known quantity" in the Army, and they wanted it in their new semi auto, which became the 1911. And, they got it.