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Old August 6, 2017, 01:39 AM   #1
Pep in CA
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An all-purpose shotgun. Advice please.

After much self-debate over what my next firearm purchase should be, I have concluded that it should be an all-purpose shotgun.

I already own a home defense shotgun. It's a 12 guage with an 18.5 inch cylinder bore barrel without choke options. That is fine. Its purpose is simple and limited: to keep bad guys out of my house. I also have a 9mm pistol for the same purpose.

However, a friend introduced me to clay target shooting and I've caught the bug. Some sport shooting is in my future -- at clays primarily, maybe some upland game and turkey eventually, but I don't anticipate being any sort of competitive shooter.

Also, one of my goals is to introduce friends and friends of friends to firearms in general. The NRA has a mentor program that encourages members to invite friends to shooting ranges and teach them about firearms. I agree.

All that being said, I have a first choice of shotgun as my next purchase, with all above needs considered. It is a Browning BPS Hunter in 20 guage with a 26" barrel.

I know there are many other options. Probably too many in my opinion. That is why I'm starting this thread.

Questions:
How good are 20 gauge shotguns at breaking clays?
How good are they at downing upland game & turkeys?
What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 26" barrel and 28" barrel?
Are there better choices of make and model of shotgun, including price points, that I should consider?
Should I stick with the ubiquitous 12 gauge?

Comments and advice certainly appreciated.
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Old August 6, 2017, 02:02 AM   #2
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I want to say the question is how good are you at breaking clays? The 12 and 20 both can have the same recoil the difference is in the payload. The 12 gauge has about 25 percent more bb's.

I would consider myself pretty decent at shooting birds or clays and I would say if you intend to shoot small birds choose a 20 gauge but if you intend to shoot bigger birds get the 12.

As for the barrel it doesn't really matter with either of those lengths. Or for that matter if you think it does you can get a 26 inch barrel and extended chokes making it almost 28.

Lastly I would like to say if you intend to take someone new out shooting there are reduced recoil rounds for a couple dollars more a box. I would get the 12 gauge.
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Old August 6, 2017, 03:08 AM   #3
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all purpose

Hello Pep. I think you are on the right track considering a pump for a GP shotgun, especially if you have a similar action type for HD. One thought I had was matching your HD make/model, to your field gun. That might not be an option you'd consider, but simplicity/duplicity is always a good plan if it can be managed.

Regards your other questions:
-Either a 12 or a 20 will break clays fine. A heavy 20ga load and a light 12ga throw roughly the same amount of shot. A really light 20 load will recoil less, generally speaking. You will likely be at a disadvantage in trap with a 20 as the ranges increases and you stay with light 20 loads.

-Lots of game has been taken with the 20ga, but I see the 12 as far more versatile, especially when you start considering turkey (or waterfowl). The 12ga, in the 3" mag versions, can throw payloads up to 2 oz of shot, the 20 ga mags only go to 1-1/4 oz with limited exception. That extra 3/4 oz of shot can make a real difference on longer shots, especially with larger shot pellets. My experience has only been with lead shot, but it makes sense that any advantage the 20 ga gains using heavier than lead "space shot", the 12 will gains as much or more if similarly loaded.

-Barrel length may well be personal preference. The longer 28" may swing easier and provide more follow through, and then maybe not. There could be an arguement for the slightly longer sight plane of the 28" too, but that could vary from shooter to shooter. I will say that years ago, long before screw in chokes, I bought a pump shotgun with matching 26" bbls, one full, the other improved. (remember my duplicity comment?). I used the full on waterfowl/turkeys, the IC on everything else. I found the shorter 26" tubes quite handy, they got through the thick stuff, and in and out of blinds, etc, very nicely. In shooting, the guns came to shoulder and pointed quickly, and I never wished I had a 28", nor felt at any loss for not having one.

-Makes/price? Personal choice again. I'm a Remington 870 Wingmaster guy myself. My old Wingmaster was purchased in 1980, and is 37 years young. I've replaced one part after a lot of shooting and more field time. I hear guys lamenting about current Remingtons, especially the price point Express, but my earlier gun has been solid. We have a Mossberg 835 in the house, and I turkey hunt it a bit. But I always feel as if I've cheated on my wife when I do.

-I'd stick with the 12. Ammo in my area seems slightly more common, with a wider variety. The advantages of heavier loads is hard for me to ignore. Afield, you likely won't ever find yourself saying I wish I had shot that critter with a smaller gun, but you may find yourself wishing you had a bigger one on occassion if you hunt the 20. The 20 ga can be overall lighter, and a good 20 will have a smaller frame/reciever and indeed be less to carry. That can matter if you cover a LOT of ground, or have health issues. There are some pretty light 12ga pumps, the alloy framed Mossberg, and the poly framed Benelli Nova come to mind.

Best wishes.
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Old August 6, 2017, 05:09 AM   #4
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You already have a HD SG. So....clays and hunting. 12 ga. fer sure. Yes, there are many loads for the 20; there are even more for the 12.
Clay games - Sporting clays, Five stand, Sheet, ATA Trap, International Trap (if you ever get a chance)....12 gauge. Yes, you can shoot them all with a 20; you will break more with a 12.
Gun....An O/U.....a quick follow up shot when hunting or shooting doubles in Trap, Skeet, SCs.....without having to pump a shell and also having a choice of chokes. Can you do these with a pump gun? Yes. You will break more and more easily with an O/U.
Downside.....more $ to buy an O/U of the same relative quality as an 870 or a Mossberg or and old Ithaca 37. A good buy would be a used Weatherby Orion made by SKB....still more $ than a new 870.
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Old August 6, 2017, 11:49 AM   #5
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Shooting a pump gun for any of the clay target games ..is a disadvantage generally because of the time it takes to cycle the gun. It can be done...leave the gun high on shoulder ...and then cycle ( you don't want to drop the gun down to cycle ) and while I did it for many years, I have long arms...but it takes a lot of practice. But the BPS Hunter model in a 28" is a very versatile gun. The longer sight plane helps smooth out your follow thru. I had BPS hunter models in both 12ga and 20ga for many years...and now they have passed down to my older son and 2 teen aged grandkids as their primary shotguns. They're a good investment in my view.

An all around better option would probably be a semi-auto...for a budget around $1,000 you can find one of the Beretta options or maybe a Browning Silver series...but I would stay with 12 ga...and go with lighter shells at 1oz or 7/8 oz ...if you want light loads.

Over Unders dominate the clay target fields...because you have 2 chokes to choose from ...and reliability - bu the less expensive O/U's are a crap shoot in terms of quality. If you want an O/U then look at the offerings from Beretta or Browning --- but even used you're up in the $1,500 range or more on entry level guns...and probably more like $ 3,000 on the better guns.
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Old August 6, 2017, 12:56 PM   #6
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WHICH clay games are you talking about? If it is American trap singles, the pump is fine as you only fire one shot. Skeet, 5-stand, sporting, FITASC would be better served with an O/U or a semi; and preferably in 12. (For new(er) shooters, using light loads will help in the recoil department.) Barrel length has to do with Moment of Inertia, and that is different for everyone. Most clay shooters want the longest barrel they can get to aid in keeping the swing to target as smooth as possible. There are O/Us and semis out there with 30, 32 and 34" barrels for that purpose.

As to which one will be best for YOU, take thyself to the local shotgun club, explain your newbieness, and rent/ borrow as many guns of different brands and types before you buy and try them all - even those way out of your price range. Why? SO you'll know what features you like and don't like and what which ones you definitely want to have on your gun.

Since, as Jim mentioned, new basic O/Us from Browning and Beretta can start in the $1800 and up range, and semis aren't that far behind anymore, do not rule out a nice, lightly used one if it FITS and has the features you want.
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Old August 6, 2017, 05:15 PM   #7
Pep in CA
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Thanks for the advice guys. Up until a few days ago, my first choice was indeed a 12 guage.

Then I considered my friends who I hope to introduce to firearms in general. Many of them are ladies and many of those ladies are quite petite. Myself, I am large enough to handle a 12 guage but I don't want to put a hard kicking 12 guage into the hands of a new, petite, female shooter. I want them to say "that wasn't so bad" instead of "ouch that hurts".

On the other hand, lighter 12 guage loads might be fine.

I shoot exclusively at a range designed for rifle and pistol shooting. It has some clay throwers at the end of the range that throw clays almost straight out (away from the rifle targets). It is not a very challenging, and again, I don't intend to compete in the sport. It's just for some extra fun once in awhile.
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Old August 6, 2017, 05:22 PM   #8
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The heaviest gun with the lightest loads produces the least recoil. In your issue, any gun that fits YOU will not fit those petite ladies so no matter what you choose, their felt recoil will be uncomfortable, even with light loads. I know ladies in their 70s who shoot 12 gauge guns weighing 8+#, but their guns fit them because they had the stocks fitted. You really might want to check out some of your local trap/skeet-type clubs as many have guns for rent that ladies can use as well as some basic intro courses so their eye dominance is diagnosed correctly and their forms and stance are correct from the get-go.
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Old August 6, 2017, 05:44 PM   #9
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For an all around shotgun I prefer a 12 over a 20. The 20's real advantage is lighter weight for carrying all day in rugged terrain and that is starting to become a special use gun rather than all around. And if you shop carefully a 12 ga can be plenty light.

The performance and recoil between 12 and 20 overlaps. The lighter 12 ga loads will match typical 20 for performance and recoil. You can only put so much shot in a 20 ga and it comes up a little short with steel shot for waterfowl shooting. It will limit the effective range for turkey, but a lot of turkey hunters (myself included) like the lighter weight of a 20 for turkey. But to be fair, for most everything else it comes pretty close. There are some 3" 20 ga loads that are pretty effective, but with recoil equal to 12. Often with more recoil if the 20 is in a lighter gun.

For strictly clays shooting a 20 is truly a disadvantage. A 12 with target loads will recoil about the same, ammo will cost about the same, but a 12 will always throw better patterns. A 20 ga or smaller is for experienced shooters looking to make the games more challenging.

For playing range games a 28" or even longer is much more common. As a hunter I find a 26" barrel on a repeater a better all around compromise.

If you're a hunter that only wants to shoot clays occasionally a pump might be a good choice. If clays are on the menu a lot, get a semi-auto.
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Old August 6, 2017, 06:25 PM   #10
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Quote:
Questions:
How good are 20 gauge shotguns at breaking clays?
Fine, if you can hit them solidly. They have a less dense pattern than a 12, using the same choke.

Quote:
How good are they at downing upland game & turkeys?
Fine, if you can hit them solidly. Turkeys may be a bit tougher; if you can hit them in the right place I believe it would be fine but I would still use a 12 just to make sure.

Quote:
What are the advantages/disadvantages of a 26" barrel and 28" barrel?
Ballisticaly, there is marginal to no difference. A shorter barrel will be lighter and faster, and vise versa. For clay games, a lot of people prefer longer, heavier barrels to improve "swing through," however it's really a matter of personal preference. I shoot mid to high thirty's at sporting clays each week with a very lightweight gun that most people would describe as hunting specific.

Quote:
Are there better choices of make and model of shotgun, including price points, that I should consider?
If you want a pump, a BPS is a nice gun, and is certainly an upgrade over an 870 or 500. In that price range if you wanted to switch to a semi you could go for one of the cheaper Beretta's, however I would personally prefer to have a BPS than a semi in the $500-1000 range (new.) Personal preference.

Quote:
Should I stick with the ubiquitous 12 gauge?
Yes. If you're introducing people to shooting, they make lighter 12 gauge loads that you can use, and obviously recoil pads and such. Plus, I think most adult people can handle normal 12 ga. recoil just fine, especially when you're shooting less than 100 rounds at a time.
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Old August 7, 2017, 09:59 AM   #11
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Quote:
Thanks for the advice guys. Up until a few days ago, my first choice was indeed a 12 guage.

Then I considered my friends who I hope to introduce to firearms in general. Many of them are ladies and many of those ladies are quite petite. Myself, I am large enough to handle a 12 guage but I don't want to put a hard kicking 12 guage into the hands of a new, petite, female shooter. I want them to say "that wasn't so bad" instead of "ouch that hurts".
In my experience, unless you are using lighter loads or hand-loading, 20 gauge shotguns often have more felt recoil in general than similar 12-guage shotguns, due to their lighter weight. Generally, if a small statured person can handle a 20 gauge, they can handle a 12 gauge just as well or better.

For an all-around sporting shotgun (hunting and sport shooting), I'd recommend a gas-operated semi-automatic with a 28 barrel. Weight will be fairly light and recoil will be manageable for almost any shooter. Follow-up shots will be fast for the shooting sports, and 28" tends to be the sweet spot for most hunters, and long enough to provide good swing for the sports.

There are plenty of more affordable options out there - Remington 1100/11-87 (older ones in good condition are typically better made in my opinion than newer Freedom Group ones), Beretta A300, etc.

I wouldn't spend a whole lot of money on an all-around shotgun. It will only be a matter of time before you will be spending more money on more specialized firearms.
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Old August 7, 2017, 01:50 PM   #12
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I don't understand why you would go with a BPS, if you already have an 870, for an all around sg. If you are going to stay with a pump, just get a 28" vent rib barrel for the 870 and swap barrels when you go hunting or to the range. Then you can save some $$$ if and when you feel the strong urge for something else.

Should you not want to swap 870 barrels, then go with a semi automatic. LIke others say, a pump is fine for singles American trap, and it doesn't sound like you will be shooting doubles, but it is a real handicap if you want to shoot skeet. For all purposes, stick with a 12 gauge and if you go used stay away from anything not chambered for 3" and for chokes.
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Old August 7, 2017, 05:48 PM   #13
Pep in CA
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I think you guys have convinced me I should select a 12 ga. semi-auto. Based on your recommendations, and all things considered, it seems to make the most sense to me now.

I looked online at a Remington 11-87 first, but I read too many online reviews that said they don't cycle light loads well. Hmm.

So I looked at the next model up in price, the V3 Field Sport. It seems to have the specs and performance I'm looking for but it kicks the MSRP to $995. However, Bud's Gun Shop has it listed at $655. That would be fine if I can find one around here for that price.

As for the choice between 26" or 28", I will try to take FITASC's advice and see if I can get my hands on one of each to see what looks and feels better ... and better yet, shoot them. That is always good advice.

Also, my HD shotgun is a Remington 870, so I am already familiar with Remingtons.

So, unless someone can convince me of a better make and model at around the $700 range, I may have found my next shotgun.

Thanks once again.
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Old August 7, 2017, 07:16 PM   #14
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If the V3 is what you want and you can't get it locally, or for as low a price, Bud's will ship it to your FFL.
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Old August 7, 2017, 07:42 PM   #15
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As for barrel length, some on this board explained to me that because a pump or semi receiver is generally 2" longer than that of break action, a 26" or 28" barrel makes one's sight plane equivalent to that of a 28" or 30" break action. I only shoot clays and then almost only skeet and all the guys I squad with are pretty good shooters; much better than me. Most all own and shoot at least one over under as well as one or two semi's and now and then a pump. They range from an older Perrazi and a Kolar to an old A5. The guy with the A5 only misses if the heat gets to him. For ammo, few shoot 12 gauge, other than me and I load one ounce and am dropping back down to 7/8 ounce loads (similar to a pretty standard 20 gauge.) The versatility of the 12 gauge is one of its strong points. Perhaps someday I will go to a 3/4.

When I got into shooting, I picked up a MEC loader, which was really nice as it allows me to load my 12 to shoot like a 16 or a 7/8 and I understand there are even 3/4 ounce wads now available. There isn't so great an advantage, now, other than cost as you can buy most of those in factory loads.

I think you are on the right track. Some say the longer barrels swing smoother, but some think they swing like a 2X4. Get what feels good to you.

I like my 870, but that doesn't mean I would go with a Remington if I get a semi.
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Old August 7, 2017, 09:11 PM   #16
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I reload 3/4oz in 12 gauge for target practice- they work great and that is using a gas operated semi. Claybuster makes a 3/4 oz wad for both 12 and 20.
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Old August 7, 2017, 10:23 PM   #17
Pep in CA
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Aguila Ammunition makes what they call mini shells ... 1¾" in length.

https://www.aguilaammo.com/shotshell/#minishelltab

I am not at all sure if these will cycle in a semi-auto, but if not, I can use them in my 870 pump to introduce first time shooters to shotgun shooting.
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Old August 9, 2017, 07:14 PM   #18
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I found those Aguila to not be the most trouble-free when it comes to feeding from a mag tube. Loading standard length to slower velocities with lesser payloads reduces actual recoil.
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Old August 9, 2017, 11:18 PM   #19
Pep in CA
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Now that I've decided on the Remington V3, the price variation between versions and dealers is absolutely confounding.

I first went to the biggest gun store in my area. They only had the black synthetic V3 version in stock. Their price is $849. Recall that Bud's sells the walnut version for $655. I asked them if they price match. They said only for local dealers, not for online dealers.

Then I saw an add for the very same V3 synthetic version at a local Turner's Outdoorsman. Their price for the exact same synthetic model: $599, on sale, plus a $100 rebate from Remington. Total: $499. I went to see them and asked for the price on the walnut version. They don't stock the walnut version and there is no rebate. The price: $912.

Recall that Bud's sells the walnut version for $655.

So, I wrote to Bud's, explaining that Turner's has a $100 factory rebate offer and asked them if there is any such rebate offer on the walnut version. Still waiting for a reply, but this is all nuts.

I should add, I held and pointed the V3 at both stores and also a comparable Mossberg model. I liked the feel and ergonomics of the V3 very much better than the Mossberg.
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Old August 11, 2017, 09:10 AM   #20
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Hopefully Bud's can work with you. They have the V3, black syn for $541.00 listed right now. That deal at Turner's tho is pretty good. Good luck.
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Old August 12, 2017, 02:44 PM   #21
Pep in CA
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To all the fellow members who participated in this thread and helped me decide which type of shotgun I should get, I just ordered a Remington V3 12 ga. in walnut with 26" barrels from Bud's.

This is the one: https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/...ducts_id/97326

Total out the door price: $663, incl. $7 delivery insurance, no sales tax. There will be a $30 transfer fee to pay to the FFL, but that is fine.

I'm looking forward to getting my hands on my new shotgun, which will probably be in about 2 weeks because of shipping and the CA 10 day waiting period.

Cheers.
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Old August 13, 2017, 07:18 PM   #22
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I've used my 870 pump for most anything you could use a shotgun for and I never felt hindered at all by pumping the action. I actually find that it induces a natural rhythm and keeps me from wasting a tube full of shot-shells with reactive trigger pulls.

I've owed a semi shotgun for a short time and sold it shortly afterwards as it just didn't feel right to me.
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Old August 25, 2017, 06:54 PM   #23
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Years ago, I bought a mossberg 500 combo. It came with a 28" vent rib barrel (I added the fiber optic front sight) and a 24" rifled slug barrel. There was a promo going on at the time and mossberg sent me two more free choke tubes with proof of purchase. Along the way I picked up an 18.5" smoothbore slug barrel with rifle sights. It was my do everything gun for awhile.
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Old August 25, 2017, 07:26 PM   #24
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I'm looking forward to getting my hands on my new shotgun, which will probably be in about 2 weeks because of shipping and the CA 10 day waiting period.

Cheers.
Make sure to read your owner's manual for the proper way to do your initial cleaning and subsequent maintenance - then go enjoy.............
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Old August 26, 2017, 02:08 AM   #25
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Thank you FITASC. I intend to.
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